The time has come....Jeep Patriot 2.4L Petrol

[nmp030672]

......Job change to lots of motorway miles now forces me to convert my beloved Jeep.

I have had 2 quotes:

£700 for a one day service

£1250 for a 4 day service

Both with Toroidal tank in the spare wheel @ 64 litres.

I am confused by the massive variance in the price and time.

Obviously the cheaper one is more attractive both on cash and time but just looking for some advice on which to go for?

Any help much appreciated

[rossko]

Check with your insurers what, if any, certification is wanted ; this may influence which installers you choose from.

Search this forum for "done in a day" for assorted opinions on the practice and the care taken with it.

Search this forum for the installer names you are considering, there may be feedback. Search this forum for the equipment brand proposed, some are more reliable or long-lived than others, though all should function satisfactorily on non-exotic machinery.

[LPGC]

Those two quotes are widely varied in price.

Would charge £1095 all in to convert the 4 cylinder Jeep with a very reliable LPG system, would run perfectly on gas or petrol, UKLPG database registration included.

I'm not sure what insurers requirements are an issue anymore - I've mentioned many times how UKLPG database registration can be paid for over the telephone (especially on the 'UKLPG comments' thread on this forum)... But any insurer's requirements are covered in my quote above anyway.

Quite a few pro installers on this forum including myself - Whom you choose might depend on where in the country you are? Yorkshire here.

I would take 2 to 3 days and do a proper job, wouldn't advise a 'done in a day' job having put many such installs right.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Tubbs]

They are a bit of a funny one them. I've done a fair few and decided a flashlube may well be required.
I did a Chrysler Sebring last week. When I popped the 'hood' low and behold a 2.4 jeep patriot engine !

[classicswede]

Tubbs are you aware that the sebring has major misfire problems on petrol? If you check misfire monitoring on your OBD you will always find a very high count on them and they often throw the engine light. I can only see gas being more of a problem.

The Jeep does not have the same problem, I've only converted a couple and not used flashlube and not see them back but I have had to fix one with VSR that was on Prins.

I think we are all charging around the same price tbh

[Tubbs]

I checked the misfire counts, infact I (as always) looked at all the data. It had no faults.
But yes I am aware of it. And told the customer it would always benefit from regular plug changes.
I wonder why they miss. And the patriot tends not to ?
I'm not 100% sure you are right about vsr though. I know an installer who also had a problem with an aeb based system at 60k. With obd adaptivity connected.

[classicswede]

It has something to do with the ECU/wiring as ones that are having problems go nuts on the misfire count if you just wiggle the wiring loom where it plugs into the ECU on the inner wing.

[rossko]

I'm not sure what insurers requirements are an issue anymore - I've mentioned many times ...

He can mention what he likes, it doesn't influence what insurers actually want to see. Check with your own insurers, shop around if you don't like their attitude.

[LPGC]

I'm not sure what insurers requirements are an issue anymore - I've mentioned many times ...

He can mention what he likes, it doesn't influence what insurers actually want to see. Check with your own insurers, shop around if you don't like their attitude.

I have said that I would include UKLPG database registration

I also added it isn't an issue anymore... By which I meant even none UKLPG installers can can get a vehicle registered on the UKLPG database, if they pay a small fee to a UKLPG member (smaller than a UKLPG member would charge to do a real check anyway, what £30 versus £100?), without even the vehicle being inspected (other than by the installer making sure it's done right!!) but I know you don't believe that's possible mate! Anyway, there is obviously also the other route, which you would prefer(?) of paying a UKLPG member to do a UKLPG check then maybe (read always if the person doing the test also converted it?) register it on the database. Since you don't believe the top statement, maybe you will agree that two people's inspection is better than one person's inspection, particularly if the person doing the inspection also did the conversion...? In which case an install may be more likely to be safe if converted by a none member then inspected by a member? The general consensus on this forum and in the trade is that a UKLPG member is no more likely to do a good or safe job than any other installer. Anyways... since I have said if I convert this vehicle I will put it on UKLPG's database, what issue are you taking with what I've said?

Dunno if you noticed (suppose you must have) but the 'UKLPG comments' thread has been among the top few results under the 'View new posts' tab again recently... Pointed that out in case you want a more 'thorough' discussion on the subject again. I have a copy of the actual BS standards that Cop11 is only a means to achieve, mysteriously arrived via post from an unknown sender! Hmm a BS standard versus a trade body code of practice, which is the more important? What does the law say? A minority of insurers think differently.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[rossko]

Dunno if you noticed (suppose you must have) but the 'UKLPG comments' thread ...

Yes I noticed you have been prodding that, suprised you want to draw attention to it, but that's your business. I abandoned it when it got bonkers, but you carry on. It is definitely the best place to rant, not hijack another thread.

The issue is simply that the enquirer needs to know what, if anything, his insurers need. Sometimes it comes as a suprise. But armed with that information, he's better placed to choose installers to suit his need (or choose another insurer).

You've made clear that you can meet that need, however you do it; I'm sure you'll be in the running.

[LPGC]

Time for a rant

I doubt anyone is surprised I want to draw attention to the UKLPG thread, I started that thread and reckon it opened quite a few people's eyes to what can be read into UKLPG membership / database registration, I would like other people to read the same and see what they think. Accuse me of ranting or hijacking threads but I reckon there is a need to add to all encompassing statements that, in fairness, might be useful to customers but are also likely to be mis-interpreted, which might be fair advice but might also have been said with the intention of steering customers - none UKLPG members can offer registration, not just members. Some installers have paid a lump sum to become a member of UKLPG and then yearly membership fees, and then registration fees. Other installers see UKLPG in a different light (money making scheme for the organisers), choose not to become members, can still have their conversions put on UKLPG's database with a phone call and £30 (or can drive the car to a member and pay £100 for the check and risk a possible fail, hmmm). Since UKLPG registration costs £17 a go for UKLPG members, non members pay only £13 more than a member to register a vehicle with UKLPG, the UKLPG member therefore gets £13 for every registration they take over the phone. There are a lot of £13 in becoming a UKLPG member plus yearly membership and some of us think so highly of UKLPG we don't really wish to support it.

On this thread I didn't mention UKLPG first, you must have been referring to UKLPG with your 'check with insurers' comment. A minority of insurers do check UKLPG's database but I reckon some people are under the impression their insurers want UKLPG database registration when all the insurer really wants is a cert from a competent person (like in accordance with the law..). Anyway, following the 'insurance' post I advised nmp03067 that just because an installer isn't a member of UKLPG doesn't mean they cannot register a vehicle on UKLPG's register, we all agree on that but may disagree on how many none UKLPG members get vehicles registered. Quite a few installers are none members but routinely register vehicles on the register by some method... I say a lot of installers register vehicles by 'phoning a friend' and that because this is possible UKLPG registration is meaningless (vehicles get on database unchecked by any UKLPG member), you say the phone a friend method just isn't done. If you're right then whenever a none UKLPG member converts a vehicle and it is put on UKLPG's register then the safety check must be done by one installer marking another installer's work rather than only one installer marking his own work? I'd say there's a strong argument that one person marking another person's work is better. In the case of my offer to convert the vehicle and register it on UKLPG's database you don't seem to be implying that I would phone a friend, maybe to do so would be a bit hypocritical (since you don't think that's done) and would imply UKLPG registration is meaningless after all?

In my opinion I wouldn't be doing a customer, the trade or myself any favours by not pointing out some of the points above whenever a UKLPG member tries to imply UKLPG membership or registration is a big deal... Not when we see poor installs done by UKLPG members (on this forum and in our workshops) and not when I know £30 gets any vehicle on the UKLPG register with no inspection and no questions asked... I'm not going to be silenced with 'rant' comments etc whilst others plug UKLPG unchallenged on any thread, even if it is a small maybe un-intentional plug like yours on this thread (I know you didn't make a big deal out of it), but I agree there is a better thread for the UKLPG discussion - I started it.

One of the biggest points regarding LPG system safety (in my view, will see if we agree) is ensuring that vehicles with LPG systems are registered with the DVLA as having an LPG system - the fire brigade might find that kind of info handy? UKLPG's system is so thorough that it doesn't touch on this blindingly obvious safety aspect at all, perhaps telling that the DVLA will accept an installer cert to change fuel type on a logbook without any mention or involvement of UKLPG.

In summary, in my view UKLPG registration means very little but is obviously handy to people who's insurers (or future insurers) require UKLPG registration before they will offer insurance. As said before, these days any installer in the know can offer UKLPG registration and not have to lift a finger to do so. On this forum and in installers workshops there seems to be little difference in numbers of good or bad installs seen that were fitted by UKLPG members or none UKLPG members.

In conclusion, why pay more than £30 extra for a UKLPG member to convert a vehicle rather than a none UKLPG member, or any more at all if the none member offers UKLPG database registration? Isn't it better to go with an installer who has been around a while, is likely to be around for a lot longer, knows his stuff and will do a good install (besides just being safe) regardless of UKLPG membership status?

Rant over, for now!

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Gilbertd]

Dunno if you noticed (suppose you must have) but the 'UKLPG comments' thread has been among the top few results under the 'View new posts' tab again recently...

Only because you bumped it.......

Don't you find it slightly hypercritical that you deride the UKLPG Register scheme so much but still offer registration to your customers?

[LPGC]

Dunno if you noticed (suppose you must have) but the 'UKLPG comments' thread has been among the top few results under the 'View new posts' tab again recently...

Only because you bumped it.......

Don't you find it slightly hypercritical that you deride the UKLPG Register scheme so much but still offer registration to your customers?

There were unanswered questions / points on the 'UKLPG comments' thread and still are, so I bumped it, fairly obvious I want the thread to continue.. Some said they were bored of the subject after contributing to the discussion for a long time, that view is understandable but another view might be that feigning boredom was an easy cop-out.

I think you know why I offered to include UKLPG registration in my quote and know those reasons do not mean I am hypercritical! For the benefit of others I will explain myself... I offered UKLPG database registration here because it had previously been put across (I'm not saying intentionally) on the same thread in a way that could have been interpreted by a customer as a selling point and one worth spending a lot of extra money on. The customer might have come to the conclusion that the difference between the £795 quote and the £1250 quote was in great part due to UKLPG database registration? My offer to include UKLPG registration simply leveled the playing field, ensuring my business proposal was not interpreted as an inferior proposal compared to other proposals from installers who do tend to give the impression that UKLPG database registration is a big deal, is worth a lot of money, is hard to achieve, can only be offered by UKLPG members or is important in any respect (including in the respects of safety and quality).. At that point I didn't really have the intention of explaining my thoughts on UKLPG or reasons behind them in detail, but I did go on to do so when others again jumped to the defence of UKLPG.

Just because I have the ability to register vehicles on UKLPG's database does not mean I, or my customers, think it always necessary to do so, does not mean I do so very often, does not mean I advise people there is much of an advantage in doing so, does not mean I repeat the messages UKLPG and their members use as selling points... There are installers who privately acknowledge UKLPG's scheme is meaningless yet publicly use membership of UKLPG and/or UKLPG database registration as a selling point - To me, this seems to amount to outright lying to customers in order to gain a sales (or at least public image) advantage. Unlike some installers approaches, my offer to include UKLPG database registration does not mean I am hypercritical, self-contradictory or two faced. I might not have mentioned UKLPG in an initial quote if someone else hadn't done so first, after all £30 isn't usually a deal breaker. If I was approached off forum by the customer I might have quoted price X without registration and price X+£30 with registration, if I did that I would have at the same time explained the situation regarding insurance, UKLPG, etc.


Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

[rossko]

On this thread I didn't mention UKLPG first

Yes, you very clearly did. Bonkers.

you must have been referring to UKLPG with your 'check with insurers' comment.

There's at least four different answers given by insurers to queries about LPG. Only one of them involves UKLPG registration. Your hobbyhorse misleads you ...

A minority of insurers do check UKLPG's database but I reckon some people are under the impression their insurers want UKLPG database registration when all the insurer really wants is a cert from a competent person (like in accordance with the law..).

There's a law requiring a cert now????
Gosh , I know how people can avoid being misled ... they could check with their insurers what they actually require.

Yes, j'accuse - you have hijacked the thread. Poor enquirer will never dare ask again.