Alfa Twinspark to LPG

[scottyf]

Hello All,
I currently have a Alfa 147 1.6 Twinspark 2002. Its mechanically good after if blew a big end bearing and I replaced the engne with a 60k replacement. Mechanically the car is good getting 190 compression etc.

I'd like to convert it to LPG as around town if I am careful I get 30mpg. I've looekd at diesels but I don't really like their power delivery or additional complexity also the extra weight over the wheels makes the handling a bit ropey I found.

Anyway I am soon to change jobs which means I go from 11'000 miles to well over 36'000 a year. (Which means a cambelt and water pump each year) but i'm competent in my own mechanical skill. Working on two strokes and rebuilds since I was 16.

So looking through guides and this website and anything I can find on the internet I've noted that an LPG conversion doesn't exactly look that difficult. I have spare manifolds and original petrol injectors to drill map and injector holes into.

I believe the car uses a Bosch 7.3 Injection system and the rest of the car uses Canbus system. Will this be an issue on any multi sequential kit?

I've looked at various kits from Prins / BRC to the middle market of ESGI and Stag. But have yet to find one that fits the bill. I guess they will all work but the quality of parts and maybe software differ's more than anything.

I'd like to keep costs down but understand its worth paying a bit more than budget for a better quality product. This would be my first install and although in my head it looks fairly straight forward I guess the attention is needed in how well the install goes more than the actual product itself.

I'm based in the Midlands (Birmingham centre) so If anyone is localish that I could look at a car or get guidance I'd really appriciate it.

Thank you.

Regards
Scott

[Tubbs]

They are good on gas. Best to go with an Italian system. Aeb. Like a king with a zavoli reducer. They will run quite happily on valtek 30's, but with your expected annual mileage I would push the boat out and go for 34's. But that's just me.
Aeb obd stuff carries connectivity for k line or can bus.
The other good kit is bigas. Tinley tech will supply. But it's a few more quid than the cheaper components. Worth it though in the end. I am based in Ludlow. And am more than happy to advise. And sort out UKLPGA certification when the time comes.

[scottyf]

Hello Tubbs,
I noticed you posting on a few other technical questions and have as such added you on twitter and doing a bit of stalking on the conversions. That you for the handy hints. I do enjoy a project and one that can save me money is a bonus.

I wouldn't mind seeeing some conversions in the flesh so I can get my head round everything by looking. But it seems pretty straight forward in some respects. Its just the loom and getting the software running etc that looks alien. Obviously the better the install the better the outcome when it comes to kits. I will look at the kits you have suggested though.

Will I need any flashlube to keep the valves in good condition given that the Twinspark is a lean burn petrol. Also I believe the spark plugs in mine are currently those twin pole things which I would imagine need to be gapped properly or least changed when converting to LPG?

[Gilbertd]

As a first install buying from somewhere like Tinley Tech will work out better in the long run than some of the other, cheaper, suppliers. One thing you will get with buying from TT is after sales support on the end of the phone and full instructions. Something you definitely won't get from our Polish friends......

[classicswede]

After sales is the key.

There are no big issues with the twin spark and plenty of them have been converted. With high milage is is worth getting the biggest tank you can reasonably fit, remember that the tanks only fill to 80%.

[scottyf]

Thanks very much for the above advice.
Is there any handy hints on installing such a kit from Tinley tech?

I've looked through other builds and videos =but there maybe something thats obvious.
However like any project just taking your time and working through methodically seems to be key.
As you've said after sales support seems to be again very key in ensuring that everything is setup correctly.

[Tubbs]

Once you have the kit in your possession then just give me a bell. Run over to mine and we can look over the install. I've generally got stuff in various states for you to look over. And I will run through the set up and mapping with you.

[LPGC]

If you tend to think of a system as being a box of parts that come as a set off a shelf then you could do much worse than others have advised on this thread. If you think of a system as being a set of components - and you are able to pick and choose components to make a system - then you could probably do better.

There are a very wide range of suitable systems that would work well on your Alfa - just about any system would work seemingly work well to the layman. An AEB ECU and Valtek injectors wouldn't be my first choice but, like a vast number of other choices of system components, should work well on your Alfa. I wouldn't have any concerns if I was asked to fit such components on your Alfa, but since I am free to choose components and have the experience to do so I would rather advise/select different components.

I seldom advise an AEB ECU for 4 cylinder engines (except certain spec 4 cylinder engines). Only the more expensive metal cased AEB ECUs have OBD connectivity, petrol addition facility and/or true sequential capability - plastic cased AEB ECU's don't. However, I wouldn't advise connecting to the OBD port on the car even if your chosen ECU has the facility (there are pros and cons to connecting to OBD but with a properly calibrated system the cons probably outweigh the pros), you certainly shouldn't need the petrol addition facility, but you should choose truly sequential ability. Regarding ECU's, with the proviso that you choose a reducer that will flow enough gas for the needs of the engine (not a big ask for your 1.6) and injectors that are good enough (see below), reliability and true sequential operation should be your primary concerns.

I find Valtek type 34 injectors to be no more linear than type 30's and the larger size of the 34's can be a negative point, though they do flow better than 30's. Instead of 34's or 30's I would rather fit OMVL SL injectors as I've found them extremely reliable, more linear, yet with similar flow rates to 34's. Regarding injectors, reliability and linearity should be your primary concerns for the Alfa.

Reducers are hardly worth mentioning because there is such a wide range that will do almost equally as good a job as each other on your 1.6.

There are installers that advise/install the same system (list of components that they buy off a shelf) on just about every vehicle they convert. I take a very different approach by choosing components to make a system to best suit the vehicle. Contrary to what is sometimes said, this approach is no more making a hybrid system or using parts that were not designed to work together than an off the shelf system - all the parts are just as compatible. Most off the shelf systems use parts that were not designed specifically to work together, in this case the set of components were agreed in boardroom deals so not necessarily with reliability or performance in mind.

I think it fair to mention that I sell DIY kits with tech support, free check of workmanship and free calibration all geared towards amateur installers. I think that's fair to mention because others on this thread tend to advise the same system from the same suppliers almost regardless of the application (vehicle). We're all on good terms with said suppliers, but if what I said isn't fair then how fair would it be if one of my mates advised every 'which system' poster to come to me?

Simon
Lpgc

[Charlie Renard]

Crikey Simon, you do talk some rubbish!, take injectors for example Valtek type 34's are totally differnt to 30's (and most other injectors) in that thay have a disc inside rather than the traditional piston with 'bump' stops, the reason they ar better is that the are much faster operating, opening time of 1.5ms compared to over 3ms for piston types for example.
I don't know why you think you know everything about LPG systems - believe me you don't!

[Tubbs]

There are a few points that simon has raised there that i also disagree with. Like he was swaring blind that the AEB ecu wasnt 'truly' sequential a few months back.
And whats the issue with the OBD connectivity ? Thats whats its there for. To help the system keep in trim with the petrol ecu. Admittedly a nicely mapped system without k line/ can bus connectivity will stay quite happily in tune. But keeping the fuel trims nice and tight is the key to good economy overall.
I personally fit AEB primarily, simply because it is a good all rounder. And is quite happily at home on a turbo or normally aspirated 1.6. As long as the injectors and reducer are up to the job. The ecu is well designed, and does its job impeccably. Its user friendly and easy to troubleshoot.
Back to the mac or pc analogy. I find macs more intuitive, i find AEB interfaces the same, i find KME, Stag etc more of a faff. Lots of stuff to do. But half of it makes very little difference. And then some stuff makes a lot of difference but not in the way you want it to.
AEB nice and easy. Little adjustments make a difference. Big adjustments make a bigger difference...so a bit easier to work with for a noob ?

[classicswede]

Going off feedback from many DIY customers they do struggle with mapping AEB. When in the basic version there were only 8 boxes it was not so bad but now with the full map things are much complex for DIY to fathom out correctly.

The Europegas system does it all on its own as does KME. The typical DIY installer can map 95% of cars by only clicking a couple of buttons and letting the computer do all the work.

There are pros and cons with every system/component.

[Tubbs]

It seems to me if you take the time to explain whats going on they seem to get it.... Its just the initial correlation between map and injector timings they struggle to fathom.
Once they get that, they seem to find it all pretty straight forward. I dont do tech support, but seem to get at least 3 a week... Generally diy'ers, bought a kit from a company in birmingham, found me on here. And they rarely have to come and actually see me to get it up and running and mapped correctly.
I had one chap who was on the phone nearly every day for a week, cut wiring was wrong, then a bad earth (every time it tried to switch, the system just went dead) then nozzle size, then he stuggled with autocalibration and mapping. But we got there in the end. Shame no one pays me though eh !

[scottyf]

Thank you for the enthusiastic response's.
The thing is even if I don't take the job @ 36K a year I still do 11K and thus if a kit can be purchased Circa £600 all singing all dancing becasue I am only ever cracking 30mpg (due to never really doing runs and using the car for B roads only in peak times) that I'd still make a saving of £550 a year anyway.

Now LPG seems to me like alot of new things I have ventured into. I dive head first normally and then realise I could have brought something cheaper / better and more bespoke further down the line. But I wouldn't have had the expereience.

So I guess what I am trying to do with this post is get the wealth of experience here first. Even if opinions will be divided.
Make a informed decision and then hopefully have a reliable system that caters for the 1.6 (140hp) engine and works every time without me thinking about it.

I am currently inbetween a house move (moving this Friday). Then I'll be looking at making a purchase for a LPG Kit.

Thanks Tubb's for offering to show me around. I am handy with a spanner anyway but having a look at components and what makes a good install will be a big help. I will definetly take you up on that offer.

Regards
Scott

[scottyf]

Also going for a kit means its all there in a package. Little things like the clips and brackets and hoses are things I just wouldn't have to hand so I guess in a way a Kit would be the best possible route.

I'd love to bespoke a kit. But given I wouldnt have to keep finding or fabricating brackets would be an issue.
Also more to the point I've only recently got my head around what each part does. Let alone which one is better than the next and why. I am very technical and have done alot of reading on the subject.

As others have recommend kits what would you spec?
From what I gather most off the shelf kits will work correctly. Some will be a little better on injection times and reliability. Some software will be more intruative than others.

Please bear in mind this will be my first build so keeping it simple is probably key here.

[mat_fenwick]

Going off feedback from many DIY customers they do struggle with mapping AEB. When in the basic version there were only 8 boxes it was not so bad but now with the full map things are much complex for DIY to fathom out correctly.

I'd second this (and I may have been one of those customers you're talking about!) I was looking at each load site individually rather than the map as a whole, so there were a few holes and steps in the fuelling. Once it clicked with me then I have to say it was dead simple, just that I am more used to playing with carbs and mechanical injection diesel engines. Not these new fangled injection systems! Although not really sure you can call a Lucas 14CUX system new fangled...

I think it was a Europegas system that Classicswede showed me the software for when I went there, and although I didn't actually adjust it myself it looked more intuitive to my way of thinking. Others may disagree! But now he's doing DIY kits I think that would be something I'd look into. That or a kit from Tinley Tech.

[scottyf]

Tinleytech does look good and paying a little more for the kit means they look virtually plug and play using the bosch injection systems. Its also good that I'd virtually get an ECU that I could change fuelling on which is great. Its a real shame you can not tweak the ignition and possibly get a slightly more power from the engine.

Still it might be an easy way to add a turbo

But thats miles away and out of my budget.

[Gilbertd]

Its a real shame you can not tweak the ignition and possibly get a slightly more power from the engine.

But you can .......
http://www.aeb.it/products/timing-advance-processors

[classicswede]

And you can with this also

http://europegas.pl/en/Products/LPG-CNG ... d,406.html

[scottyf]

Interesting bits of kits.
I'll concentrate on getting the actual kit first rather than going mental with the tuning aspects.

So am I being advised go with Tinley Tech first - buy a kit such as :-

http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Bi ... _Kits.html

using the 190hp with the bosch loom (Making it easier to fit so I don't have to bust out the soldering iron - although I don't have a problem soldering after I created a electric bike) but for £20 extra saves me the hassle.

Then away I go right.
Is there anything else I would need or possibly upgrade that would be better with a more bespoke kit at all?

[classicswede]

The downside with a plug in loom is they are bulky and look a bit messy Soldering is neater and can save any problems with wrong polarity looms.