Gas bottles + lpg transfer pumps?

[Budgetbond]

Hi everyone I'm looking at trying to increase the longevity of running lpg at the moment and have heard/considered re-fuelling from gas bottles as well as from the available local filling stations but dont know much about + the feasibilty of doing this.
Does anyone do this at all is it possible? Whats required to do this?
What are the costs involved in doing this?
Are any particular type of bottles or pumps required?
What are any advantages or implications of doing this?

Can anyone shed any light on this at all?

Many thanks G

[LPGC]

I sell 12volt pumps that make it possible at £375.

Mick at LPGautosupplies sells mains powered pumps that make it possible.

The advantages are that it can work out a lot cheaper than filling at a forecourt (especially compared to Morrisons / MFG's new price), you can refill at home or anywhere at any time without needing to visit a forecourt.

The disadvantages are that you need to buy a pump and have a bottle to fill from, and it isn't as straight-forward as filling at a forecourt. Should also pay the road duty on any bottled gas we use for road fuel, though I'm not sure if many people do...

[Budgetbond]

Hiyah Simon, thanks for the reply glad to see youre still v active, well thats handy + interesting (ill send you a pm with more specifics) and is another good option.
So generally, can you/ how much can you get the gas cheaper bottled, than say the cheapest forecourts available at all?
And do anywhere part fill/top up bottles or is it usually just exchange an empty one for a full?
Ive looked into it + seen more of your posts now so ill send you a pm about it.
It seems like a 19kg bottle seems to be the most convenient manoeuvrable available size do anywhere discount if you take it to them in the back of your car in your experience?
And are adapters readily available for your pumps? (Ive got a eu like screw in fitting for size on my car which i screw in a bayonet adapter end to?)

Thanks v much its appreciated

[LPGC]

You need to check the price of bottled gas in your area, prices vary between different suppliers even in the same area.

I pay £79.50 to refill a 47kg bottle, 1kg of LPG is 1.96 litres so there are 92.12 litres of LPG in a 47kg bottle. This works out at 86.3p per litre for me.

I get free delivery, I order a bottle exchange from my bottled gas supplier over the phone and pay by card (takes around 1 minute), next day they collect my empty bottle and put a new bottle in its place , I don't even need to be around or see the driver.

Other people in different areas pay a bit less or a bit more. Get quotes from as many local bottled gas suppliers as you can, ask the cheapest if they can do it a bit cheaper. Also ask about delivery / collection etc.

Bottled gas companies have their own bottles with their own logo painted on them, they will usually only (and should only) exchange their own bottles. I had to pay a one-off £50 deposit fee to keep one of their bottles here but I get the deposit back if (*anytime soon) I tell them they can come and collect their empty because I no longer want to keep one of the their bottles. It works similarly to the way we used to get a bit of money back for returning empty take-away beer bottles to the pub lol.
*If I keep the bottle a long time I get less than the full £50 deposit back, until eventually there would come a point they wouldn't give me anything back for it. Effectively the bottle users pay the depreciation on the value of an empty bottle.

It has always been the case that the bigger size bottles are better value for money in terms of the price you pay per kg (or per litre) of gas, so unless you find an exceptional case it is likely to be a far better bet to buy gas in the biggest sized bottle they all do which is the large 47kg catering sized bottle. If you get a smaller sized bottle you should expect to pay more per litre.

Bottles are not normally 'topped up', they exchange an empty bottle for a full one. You might find an independent that would top up a gas bottle that belongs to a different supplier but they're not supposed to do that. Anyway, if a firm can top up a gas bottle they can probably also fill your vehicle LPG tank directly, defeating the point of having a bottle to fill up from unless you were thinking of carrying a bottle as a range extender. It would be possible to run a vehicle directly from a red bottle but (unless it's a forklift bottle, which have there own problems for running a vehicle from) the bottle needs to be upside down to run a vehicle from it. You should also remember that red bottles don't have the same safety features as a vehicle LPG tank. The pump will work anywhere (runs from the car battery) so if you could safely carry a red bottle (maybe a pickup truck with the bottle carried outside) you could carry one and use as a range extender, when the vehicle tank needed topping up with gas use the pump to pump gas from the bottle into the vehicle tank... But range extension isn't the main reason for the pumps.

I originally thought about LPG pumps when a lot of BP and Shell forecourts stopped selling LPG leaving a lot of owners with an LPG converted vehicle but nowhere local to refuel with LPG, thought about them again when some of remaining forecourts increased the price above the price we could buy it for in bottles but at that time Morrisons were still a good supplier of reasonably priced LPG. Now that MFG have increased the price of Morrisons forecourt LPG ridiculously high the pumps make a lot of sense to a lot of people. If you can still refuel with LPG at a decent price from a fairly local forecourt or from forecourts you pass along your usual routes you might not make much use of a pump, but if your local supplier(s) were Morrisons and have all just shot up in price to 129.9p per litre a pump would likely save you money.

[Budgetbond]

Thanks v much for your as always exceptional reply, yes i completely agree filling from bottles would increase the availability of fuel 10-fold, it seems like bottles can be exchanged all over the place, tho they do seem heavier than i thought, and prices do seem to vary quite a bit depending on locality, and i know what you mean it seems like the prices of gas in the largest 47 kg bottles are comparable with the cheapest forecourts, tho the prices of the smaller 19 + 13/11 kg bottles isnt quite as competitive as you mite expect.
Do the bottles have to be inverted or laid down to extract the gas with your pump or do they work upright as well?
I know ive got a screw in bayonet adapter for mine presumably id just have to keep using the adapter as normal.
I have happened to notice recently a plethora of presumably old out of date emptys at my local tip/recycling centre recently.
And im on a caravan holiday at the moment with cheap re-gassing facilities i suppose you could perhaps even use the many of these too + even re-fuel with your pump direct from another bulk tank?

(Ill send you another pm re: your pumps)

[LPGC]

All gas bottles designed to connect a regulator to need to be inverted to pump gas out of them but you can start pumping with the bottle on it's side. The thing is that pumps need to be pumping liquid gas not vapour, while the type of bottles designed to connect a regulator to have the outlet at the top of the bottle. Obviously when the bottle is full if you put it on its side the outlet which is normally in the middle top of the bottle becomes half way up the height of the bottle so is lower than the level of liquid inside the bottle so liquid will come out.

Bottles can be exchanged all over the place but there are various bottled gas companies and they won't fill other company's bottles. So if you get a bottle from one of the nationwide suppliers such as Calor or Flogas you can get it refilled all over the place but if you get a bottle from a small independent firm that only has one site you can only get that one site / company to refill it. However, the smaller independents are often cheaper than the nationwide suppliers.

Could probably supply you with a pump that would connect straight to whatever you normally connect the bayonet adapter to.... But check your bayonet adapter to see if it has internal threads. If it does have internal threads (same as most 'fixed' as opposed to 'hidden' filling points have internal threads) it might be a better idea to supply the usual type pump that connects to the usual bayonet filler with internal threads.

Heh, all jokes aside you don't want to be nicking the caravan site's gas from their bottles even though it might well be possible... Unless you mean it's your caravan and bottle and the site offers cheap gas bottle exchange, in which case yes that would be great.

I'll look out for your PM.

Simon

[Dapedza]

Really useful thread. Thank you to all the contributors.
Stuck between a rock & a hard place here in Cambridge, so it’s looking like we’ll have to move over to 47kg bottles or simply run on petrol for the Jeep’s remaining life.
So, here’s the maths: we get through about 1,500 litres of LPG per annum. LPG from the bottle looks like about 86p/litre. From the pumps, it’s about 129p/litre, so the savings are around 43p/litre times 1,500 comes to about £645 savings per annum (that’s without factoring in detours to a LPG station).
Question is, where can we get a stand to mount a 47kg bottle inverted & how much would a good quality mains powered rig cost?
Many thanks

[Gilbertd]

My local Flogas quoted me £62 for a 47kg refill, so that works out at around 67p per litre. My problem is that I go through around 180 litres a week....

Flogas in Peterborough are currently charging 90ppl but the main downside is they are only open Mon-Fri and close at 16:30. In the past I would fill up at a convenient Morrisons depending on what direction I was travelling in (Wisbech, Camborne, St Ives, Spalding) but now I just call in at Flogas on my way out and hope I can get back home on a tankful.

Incidentally, I've just spent 2 weeks in Europe. France, which used to be the most expensive in Europe is currently around 0.95 Euro a litre (about 80p) at the supermarkets, although more on the motorways as you would expect, about the same in Spain and I filled up in Italy at 0.67 Euro, or 56p a litre. I also downloaded the myLPG.eu app (which also works in the UK) and is as good, if not better, than the autogas.app.

[Dapedza]

Rather depressing to see how we’re being comprehensively fleeced over here on ‘treasure island’ (as many car dealers used to call the UK).
Got answers to my questions.
Inverted stand not needed. Just start with bottle on its side, then tip it over once liquid no longer flows.
Mains pump from Mick with all the plumbing, but no filter is £600 plus VAT. (Out of stock at the moment).
Just need to find a good bottle supplier in Cambridge that delivers!

[Gilbertd]

It wouldn't be too difficult to weld up a rotating stand from a few bits of angle iron and flat bar. Sit the cylinder on it, strap it on and then rotate it. My problem is that it would be fine for a quick top up at weekends but if I'm going on a round trip further than I can get on a full tank, then I need somewhere to fill when away from home (but still in the UK). Carrying a 47kg bottle and pump in the car isn't really practical. Unfortunately I rarely go via the Birmingham area where prices are sensible (look at autogas.app and put in Birmingham). Most are 73ppl!

Why not run on petrol for the remainder of a journey I hear you ask? Because my engine has done over 230,000 miles since a full rebuild and has probably done less than 1,000 of those miles on petrol. I change the oil every 10,000 miles and it comes out clean and the inside of the engine is still clean too. On the one occasion I had to do around 500 miles on petrol (when there was a shortage just about everywhere), the oil came out far dirtier at the next change. I maintain that running on LPG is not only better for the environment but better for the engine too. I'm currently at 522,000, did 3,100 in the last fortnight and am looking forward to getting it up to a million.

[LPGC]

Recently I haven't bothered having the bottle on it's side, I just invert it before starting pumping. The tare weight of a 47kg bottle is around 35kg, filled with 47kg of gas the gross weight is just over 80kg. If lifting one end of the bottle (as to invert it) the other end is supported by the ground so you're only lifting half the weight so lifting 40kg. The bottle will stand on it's handle on a flat surface without much risk of toppling over but I would agree some method of securing it would be a good idea.

Extra range is a different subject to pumping gas from bottles but having a pump can help with range too. Obviously for extra range you've got to carry the extra gas and it's going to take up some luggage space but there are a few ways of carrying extra gas...

Pumps can also pump from bottle to bottle - If a 47kg bottle is too big to carry in the car (which it will be unless you run a van or pickup) you could have a couple of smaller gas bottles, pump from the 47kg bottle into smaller bottles at home, take the small bottles with you in the car, take the pump with you in the car, pump from small bottles into the car. Got to remember bottles don't have the fill limiter and you need to leave the 20% headroom in the bottle, don't overfill.

A few years ago I fitted a 2nd LPG tank to my car, the tank can easily be removed / refitted at any time because the plumbing (fill pipe and pipe to engine) use quick fit connectors like hydraulic / pneumatic fittings that I T'd into existing pipes and routed to the inside of the car. The idea was that the extra capacity would give enough range to tow my caravan over 500 miles at 15mpg on a single fill, but when I arrived at the holiday destination could remove the 2nd tank from the car to regain the space for luggage, then refit the 2nd tank for the journey home. I did remove the range extending additional tank but these days I just leave the 2nd tank in the car all the time, without the caravan on the back this gives 700 mile range on LPG.

Agreed with Gilbert on LPG being better for the engine. I don't like running on petrol because it costs a lot more than running on LPG and also because running on petrol 'ruins' my nice clean engine oil. I convert a lot of vehicles to LPG and often change the spark plugs etc at the same time, which gives a view into the cylinders. When they come in for LPG conversion the piston crowns have that layer of carbon / crud on them. If I later service the same vehicle when it's been run on LPG for a while the piston crowns are much cleaner, the crud on pistons has gone. Running on petrol some of that same crud/carbon gets into the oil, and that's before we start talking about other contaminants in petrol such as sulphur.

[Gilbertd]

A few years ago I fitted a 2nd LPG tank to my car, the tank can easily be removed / refitted at any time because the plumbing (fill pipe and pipe to engine) use quick fit connectors like hydraulic / pneumatic fittings that I T'd into existing pipes and routed to the inside of the car. The idea was that the extra capacity would give enough range to tow my caravan over 500 miles at 15mpg on a single fill, but when I arrived at the holiday destination could remove the 2nd tank from the car to regain the space for luggage, then refit the 2nd tank for the journey home.

I've thought about that as an option but the downside is that when I need the extra range I invariably need the luggage space too. With the spare wheel already in the boot, as the tank is filling the space where that would normally live, as well as always carrying my toolbox and a 2 tonne trolley jack (what's the point in sitting at the side of the road with a problem when you know you could fix it if you had something that is currently in the garage?), boot space is at a premium. I do have one of the little 4x3 tip run trailers though and did think about putting a tank in that and using Polypipe to connect to the car. Not sure what Flogas would make of it when I turned up to fill it though......

[LPGC]

I've thought about that as an option but the downside is that when I need the extra range I invariably need the luggage space too. With the spare wheel already in the boot, as the tank is filling the space where that would normally live, as well as always carrying my toolbox and a 2 tonne trolley jack (what's the point in sitting at the side of the road with a problem when you know you could fix it if you had something that is currently in the garage?), boot space is at a premium. I do have one of the little 4x3 tip run trailers though and did think about putting a tank in that and using Polypipe to connect to the car. Not sure what Flogas would make of it when I turned up to fill it though......

There's no way around an extra tank taking up some space but would none of the designs (toroidal, vertical toroidal, cylinder) allow you to still fit all your gear in?

It will (or should) be obvious to whoever refills the setup you describe that gas is going into tanks in the trailer, they might not realise what the Faro pipe is for but there'll be the usual hiss if filling an empty tank in the trailer. Like you say though, not sure what they'd make of it. I wonder if the place you fill allow motorhomes to refill onboard tanks, and if so, would they allow you to refill the trailer if you made it look like a DIY trailer tent with it's own filling point. Still they should know that if the little trailer can hold a couple hundred litres of fuel it wouldn't leave much space for a fold out bed or cooker lol. I once fitted a large tank into a van for a farrier to run his torch from, wonder if they'd fill a farrier's trailer with gas.

[Gilbertd]

Lots of motorhomes with onboard tanks fill up there, the biggest problem I would have with the trailer idea is that you drive in, fill up, then reverse out. I can reverse a 6m car transporter trailer or the boat trailer into just about anywhere but if I need to turn round with the little box on the back, I just unhitch it and do it manually, they are an absolute pain to reverse and take on a mind of their own.

This is the state of my boot ordinarily so when I start to fit luggage in as well I normally end up with it the boot full, the rear footwells full and more stuff on top of the rear shelf.....

[Hloni]

DISCLAIMER:
THIS IS NOT ADVICE BUT PERSONAL USER REFLECTIONS

I've done a few long distance trips recently with a 19kg in the boot. I've tapped into the inlet between the filler and the toroidal tank, and then installed a ball valve tap just before the 19kg (or whatever size I use at the time) bottle. I keep the bottle in the boot, connected BUT both taps closed (ball valve and gas bottle). When the autogas finished in the tank, I then open both valves and the liquid transfers without any pump and I continue to drive. The gas bottle is slanted at ±30° with the mouth facing downwards.
How legal is this, I don't know. My assumption is it's breaking various rules. I do though ensure that there is no gas leak (I suppose the advantage of using LPG is it has "the smell" added to it, so I can pick that up quick).

The above also allows me to fill both the tank and bottle at the forecourt. 1st I fill-up the tank. Once full, open the ball valve and fill-up the bottle.

I still have the 12v transfer pump, but I haven't used it in a while. It gave me a few headaches, so I've been experimenting with the above method which has worked out nicely.

Knowing that folks in the UK are law-abiding citizens, tapping into the inlet with a T-junction might be frowned upon. I'm in South Africa, and autogas is not yet common or readily available at forecourts.

[Budgetbond]

Hey some v interesting ideas there, the last setup sounds good, effectively using a gas bottle as a removable additional tank (like u say how safe + legal that is ive no idea / how u could make it that way but for safe monitorable use why not).
On my travels i see loads of discarded gas bottles + theres loads at the recycling centres, and also the bulk storage tanks (how many are still in use ive no idea).
With a pump these maybe mite become accessible?

And from the little research ive done there are a myriad of bottle gas suppliers but the price does seem to vary significantly and it seems much more competitive with the largest 47kg bottles, but ive realised the weight of all of them, but shopping round would prolly yield good results like Richard Gilberts 67ppl.

(Hey could you remove your seats + import it from abroad!!)

Didnt i read in the past about a mobile refilling truck that used to go round i imagine a disused bulk tank would be like on a please just take it away for us basis!!!)

Ive noticed you can readily get just the decanting transfer hoses, but of course no matter how much you gravity invert and heat + cool the bottles youre only going to get so much into your tank + then to part fill up any nottles you would have to do it at an available forecourt so just becomes a range extender.

Please anybody keep reporting any competitive supplier success stories or any other refilling/usage ideas.