Cast iron valve seats and LPG

[Gilbertd]

Over the years I've swapped engines using a lump of 4x4 across the front wings, a couple of rope slings around the engine and a person either side to lift. But that was things like Ford Kent, BMC A series and I think the heaviest one was a 1.8 BMC B series in a Morris Marina. But, there was no way the boat engine would have come out that way, it must weigh the best part of 200kg! But, it came out this way:







This is the beastie. It doesn't have a name yet so I need to come up with one for it.



You can see the size it by seeing it next to my spare Range Rover......

[LPGC]

Nice boat!

Great idea Richard! I may yet copy your idea if I need to lift the engine out of my boat. I.e. I may look into hiring a cherry picker (how much did it cost you or you customer?).

You're aware from the other thread that we're in a similar situation, I bought a Four Winns Sundowner with Volvo Penta, read OMC, read Ford 302 5.0 V8 Windsor engine.... Turns out there's a knock on the engine, not running properly (except apparently at low load low rpm river speed cruising), now discovered a cracked marine exhaust header on the starboard (bank 1) side of the engine. I removed plugs to do a compression test, cranked the engine and water spat out of bank 1's plug holes .

I was looking at bowriders myself before I bought the cuddy. If you bought this one from Ebay it might have been one I strongly considered buying before I bought mine.
Whichever way we look at it we're both more or less in the same boat lol!

I'll post some pics. I forget if we can upload pics directly now, or are we still externally linking to image hosting sites?

Regards chat on the other thread... Send me the 351W head and tell me how much you want for it!

[LPGC]

Due to the boat's colours and the way by which it's been helped to be reincarnated an apt name would be 'Cherry Blossom' hehe.

[Gilbertd]

No, didn't come from eBay, I found it on leboncoin.fr. Loads on there as the French don't repair anything, they either pay someone an arm, a leg and their first born daughter to repair it for them (mind you, I put an AC system in for a marine engineer over here and he told me that boat stands for 'Bring Out Another Thousand') or just leave it. There's no end on the Mediterranean coast needing work but this one was just outside Paris on the Seine which would seem to confirm it was used for posing more than anything else. Fortunately, I know a guy that lives about 5 miles from where it was so he went and gave it the once over for me. 3,100 Euros, about another £500 to go over and collect it and it came complete with a brand new Bimini top. Although there's no name on it, some of the French papers say it was called Kiss.

I'm not so sure about the Bowrider and think a cuddy might be a bit more useful but the bowrider does look fun and the plate on it says it is designed to seat 8. I've got an ICC with CEVNI for powerboats on inland and offshore so could actually take it over to France (or Belgium or Holland if I could afford the petrol), but we'd need to find a hotel once we got there!

Pics have to hosted elsewhere but I'll pass on sending the head. I hate to imagine how much it will cost to post something you can barely lift! It'll have to wait until you're heading south or I'm heading North, we both live just off the A1, just about 90 miles apart.....

[Pinger]

I'm Scottish. You can't ask me to name a boat.....

The photo of the Cadillac engine on this thread - straight from my lap-top. No third party host needed. I posted it as an attachment - not via the photo icon.

[Gilbertd]

A mate of mine is from Glasgow and despite having lived in England for over 20 years, my missus still can't understand him......

Interesting that pictures can be added directly, obviously a change made when Dave migrated the site to a different server.

[LPGC]

I'll remove the suspect starboard side marine manifold tomorrow or Tuesday, remove the rocker cover on that side (easier access to bolts with the manifold off), assess the rockers on that side head.

I did occur to me that hydrolock could have damaged a rocker / post / pushrod and someone on the boating forum suggested the same. If I find something with the valve train that's wrong and manage to correct it then I'll run another compression test, there is a chance that the head is OK.

If not, it would be worth it to me to make a special journey to you. That is if you're in Peterborough with it and not still in France...

I posted some pics of my boat on the boating forum, which you might have seen Gilbert?

But I'll try some direct picture uploads here...

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[LPGC]

Cracked marine exhaust manifold, water came out of plug holes on this side when I removed plugs to do a compression test

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I uploaded files as attachments then clicked on 'place inline'.

[Pinger]

I did occur to me that hydrolock could have damaged a rocker / post / pushrod and someone on the boating forum suggested the same. If I find something with the valve train that's wrong and manage to correct it then I'll run another compression test, there is a chance that the head is OK.

The only way that could really happen is if the valve was opening against the prevailing cylinder pressure but an exhaust valve would be opening with a retreating piston lowering cylinder pressure and any water would be forced out of the cylinder during the exhaust stroke so no pressure for the inlet valve to fight. If the head hasn't cracked or distorted, due to the internal pressure then probably OK and in any case, all the valve train components exist independently of the head casting. Head bolts may have stretched though.
What I've heard of hydrolocked SBCs (when the cylinder has been flooded sat parked from a leaking inlet manifold gasket) is that they'll bend a conrod on first turn of the key to start them. Broken/cracked pistons also a possibility. If this is what has happened to yours (allowing for different source of water ingress) I'd check the starter motor gear and ring gear for any damage caused by ham-fistedly trying to get the crank turning against the hydrolocking.

[Gilbertd]

His isn't an SBC but a Ford motor but I suspect the results would be the same anyway. The exhaust manifolds on a marine engine are fitted upside down to how they would be in a car, so they go upwards. At the top are what are referred to as the risers where there is a gasket that keeps the exhaust in the centre and the coolant around the outside. Further down the exhaust are rubber flaps that act as a sort of one way valve so, when moored, any water movement can't force water up and over the rise inside the exhaust until it reaches the ports. However, if the gasket at the riser starts to leak, or the manifold itself rusts through internally, you don't get a problem when the engine is running as the exhaust gases coming out pushes the water back the way it should go. The problem occurs when the engine isn't running as you have an exhaust manifold full of water to end up wherever it wants.

Cherry picker hire was £439.20 for the day but I found very few companies hire out towable ones as they can disappear too easily (even though the guy at the hire place did point out it had a tracker fitted). You can hire a self powered one for less than half that price but they then charge delivery and collection at a ridiculous rate per mile. The other alternative I was considering was speaking to a local farmer with a Telehandler and attaching the chain block to the forks.

[LPGC]

The only way that could really happen is if the valve was opening against the prevailing cylinder pressure but an exhaust valve would be opening with a retreating piston lowering cylinder pressure and any water would be forced out of the cylinder during the exhaust stroke so no pressure for the inlet valve to fight.

The same thoughts had occurred to me... If we think about the 4 strokes and what the valves are doing in all of them there shouldn't be a time when a valve is trying to open against the lock. But I read about other boat engines suffering valve/train damage during hydrolock and I can think of conditions where valves are damaged during closing with a cylinder containing water, still a long shot but one of the reasons boat engines don't normally have a lot of cam duration (i.e. exhaust valve closing after TDC) is to prevent 'reversion' during which if the cylinder hasn't fired a still open exhaust valve could allow water from the exhaust to be sucked into the cylinder. Like you I have my doubts but it seems at least possible.

If your engine has been run without coolant, how are your 'flappers' (rubbers) Gilbert? Apparently they can burn / melt and fall into the exhaust But I've also read they're not completely necessary... I suppose it would depend on how high above the waterline the risers go and how much rocking the boat does with the engine off...

Got to say though that from an engineering point of view, the car engine'd inboard with outdrives setup do seem to have a lot of shortfalls, especially when moored (instead of trailered) and used on salt water so they don't get rinsed out using muffs like a trailered boat would. Parts like exhaust manifolds and even engines are going to be consumables in that sort of situation. I will be using mine on the sea when it's proven to be reliable (and try not to think too much about the saltwater running through the cast iron block or exhaust manifolds lol) but I'll be rinsing it out with fresh water after every session. On the other hand, I do prefer the inboard/outboard setups compared to outboards.

Ahh I thought cherry picker hire would've been around £100 for a day lol. I bet the hire firms soon make their money back on those things! I think at that price I'll try to think of another way. If I shift an old trailer in the yard there's a raised section around 4ft wide near the entrance to the garage doors, I wonder if I could stand my engine crane on that. Or buy a couple of 6metre lengths of angle iron and make a frame to mount chain pull lifts to, effectively such angle iron wouldn't cost me anything because I'd eventually use it all to make brackets to attach LPG tanks to RV's. In the past I've used pull lifts connected to a girder over the garage door to lift engines out of cars, I even used that setup to lift the 3L straight 6 and autobox out of one of my Vauxhall Senators in one lift (combined length around 6ft which had to clear the car's front slam panel) but it wouldn't be high enough for the boat engine with the boat on the trailer.

[Gilbertd]

If your engine has been run without coolant, how are your 'flappers' (rubbers) Gilbert? Apparently they can burn / melt and fall into the exhaust :-( But I've also read they're not completely necessary... I suppose it would depend on how high above the waterline the risers go and how much rocking the boat does with the engine off...

Yes they can, the bellows between the transom plate and outdrive didn't survive well either. I found two of the steel plates from the flappers in the bellows, one wedged into the outdrive and one still in the bottom of the exhaust.

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Got to say though that from an engineering point of view, the car engine'd inboard with outdrives setup do seem to have a lot of shortfalls, especially when moored (instead of trailered) and used on salt water so they don't get rinsed out using muffs like a trailered boat would. Parts like exhaust manifolds and even engines are going to be consumables in that sort of situation. I will be using mine on the sea when it's proven to be reliable (and try not to think too much about the saltwater running through the cast iron block or exhaust manifolds lol) but I'll be rinsing it out with fresh water after every session. On the other hand, I do prefer the inboard/outboard setups compared to outboards.

I agree and I suppose an indirect cooling system would probably be a lot better. No different to a car except a water to water heat exchanger instead of a radiator. At least that way the cooling system can be filled with anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitors. That is how it is done on some of the Tournament ski boats that use the all alloy Lexus V8. Mine will be used on the sea but will be trailered there and back. I rescued the cold water header tank from my daughter's house when the boiler was replaced from the old style indirect with header tank and hot water cylinder for a combi boiler. The installer was about to chuck the header tank but it is near perfect size for the outdrive to sit in. That and muffs should keep it well washed out. Mine is fitted with one piece manifolds which don't have the riser bit bolted to the top, just a big curved casting. Apparently, according to the Bayliner forum, they only used them for a couple of years as bad quality internal casting caused a coolant exhaust mix. From the casting marks on mine, they were replaced in 2014 (and I don't think it has had much use since then) so should be good for a while. Replacements are £800 a pair but there's a company that makes a bolt on replacement in stainless steel for, you guessed it, £800 a pair.

Ahh I thought cherry picker hire would've been around £100 for a day lol. Or buy a couple of 6metre lengths of angle iron and make a frame to mount chain pull lifts to, effectively such angle iron wouldn't cost me anything because I'd eventually use it all to make brackets to attach LPG tanks to RV's.

One company quoted me £150 a day which I thought was pretty good but then they wanted a further £3 per mile to deliver and collect it as it was a self powered job. So if you've got a hire company locally, that still might be an option. I was thinking about making a gantry from scaffolding to attach the chain block to but getting it in exactly the right place for a straight lift was going to be interesting. Then my neighbour (a recently retired Land Rover workshop manager) suggested talking to the local farmer to use his Telehandler before the cherry picker job came up.

[LPGC]

Duplicate post

[LPGC]

Sorry I haven't replied until now or replied to anything said. It very much interests me and there's plenty I'd like to say but I've been so busy flitting between work and fixing my own boat.

I've made some progress on my intended method of lifting the engine out of my own boat, I've done most of the hard work of modifying my existing engine lift to extend it's height..

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Just need to add rear bracing and possibly add some extra wheelbase/track to improve stability to compensate for lowered stability of the extra height now.

Gilbert, you had the use of the lift during lifting your engine, I don't know if you'll have the use of it (without having to pay the hire charge) when you come to re-install your engine... But you can borrow this if you like. Meant to phone you back after I called you when you were busy the other day, this (or the idea of this at the time) is what it was about.

Instead of welding in the rear supports and possible extra width / length I'm going to make those supports un-boltable so the lift will remain semi-portable and still fit in a trailer when dis-assembled but the mast is welded up to it's new length and won't be able to be shorter when disassembled.

[Pinger]

There's another few inches of height available should they be needed from removing the trailer wheels.

[Gilbertd]

An interesting idea but are you sure you are going to have enough lift? I measured the distance between the bottom of the sump and the gunwales and was going to need a good 5 feet lift to get it to clear once lifted up. I suppose you could always lift the engine as far as your crane can manage then let the tyres on the trailer down or, as Pinger says, take the wheels off and lower it down of jacks. Problem then is going to be moving it out from under the dangling engine..... When the time comes to put mine back in, unless I have cause to get someone else to pay for the hire of a cherry picker again, I'll be going with the option of talking nicely to the local farmer (who I was at school with anyway) and hanging the chain block from the forks of his Telehandler.

When you called me my phone said the call was from LPG Conversions so I had a pretty good idea who was calling but I was up a ladder in the middle of an AC install. So I wasn't being rude (although I have been known to simply tell people to bugger off if it is someone I know), just busy....

[Pinger]

If the engine hoist is high enough, could a block and tackle be attached to supplement the hydraulic lift travel? The height required though would be significant and raises thoughts of a gantry arrangement as a less topple prone solution.

[LPGC]

My plan is to use the lift at the stern of the boat, lift the engine, pull the boat (on it's trailer) forward and out from underneath the engine, lower the engine and attach it to my engine stand (I've bought some UNC threaded bar and nuts so I can make whatever length stand bolts necessary to bolt it to the stand).

It was originally designed as a fold up type crane so the mast range of movement is from almost pointing straight down to the ground to pointing around 45degrees above horizontal. The arm at maximum extension (500kg rated) is around 5ft long so that arc of movement gives a tremendous lift height of something like 7ft... Though of course most of that range of movement would never be useful in practice because reach diminishes rapidly as the arm moves away from horizontal, there'd never be an application where you'd want to pick something up from the floor 30cm in front of the mast and lift it 7ft into the air.

I haven't rolled the crane up to the boat yet but I took some measurements. Seems the crane arm reach is just about long enough to reach from the rear of the boat to central above the engine with the mast almost horizontal and before I extended it's height the arm horizontal would have just cleared the height of the stern of the boat... So like you say I am expecting it to be touch and go lol. I'm hoping that the modification I've done to the crane (only affecting the height so far, not the reach) will at least allow the the lift to start with the crane arm pointing a little below horizontal with a decent length of chain and allow around 5ft of lift height from that starting position. There would undoubtedly be enough lift height if it wasn't for reach when moving away from the horizontal being an issue.

The engine won't weigh as much as 500kg so I've thought about extending the arm which would both increase the reach and decrease the backward movement as the arm arcs away from horizontal. But then I'd definitely need to add that extra length to the legs and I'd be worried about just how much the engine does weigh. I was thinking of lifting the engine complete with heads (but minus the marine exhaust which I've already removed), with heads, with intake, with ancillaries and work on the engine on the stand once it's out. But if I extend the arm it would probably be a better idea to remove at least the ancillaries and possibly even remove the heads while it's still in the boat..? I'll need to remove the bellhousing anyway before I can attach the engine to the stand..

[LPGC]

If the engine hoist is high enough, could a block and tackle be attached to supplement the hydraulic lift travel? The height required though would be significant and raises thoughts of a gantry arrangement as a less topple prone solution.

Good idea. I thought about adding a winch setup to the crane, that way (or your way) the crane arm could remain near horizontal during the entire lift thus keeping it's reach. I have some old 'pull lifts' somewhere, finding them would be another matter! The problem with the winch idea is getting hold of suitable cable rollers and how to attach them to the crane, I've seen a video where someone routed winch cable through the box section of the arm and added small 30mm (but very heavy duty) rollers in the ends of the box section but this crane has adjustable reach (by sliding the narrower box section outer arm inside the wider section inner arm) and the outer section is too narrow for even a 30mm roller to fit inside.

It's all do-able but I'm starting to wonder if by the time I've finished the crane mods I might just as well have bought box section from the steel supplier and made my own gantry with block and tackle.

[Gilbertd]

This https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394276870316 is what I used although it appears only the 3m version is available at the moment. Get your crane arm just below horizontal, use the chain block to lift it as high as you can, then raise the arm. If the Ford engine is similar to mine, the lifting eyes are bolted to the heads so without them, you don't have anything you can rely on to attach the chain to.