LPG petition

[LPGC]

LPGC: Similarly, I see synthetic fuels (and bio-fuels) as a necessity that those planning our future have yet to realise. I can't help but wonder that when they do, the existing tooling/production capability for ICE will have been scrapped.

For your on-board generator (in essence a REx (range extender)), do you intend using an off-the-shelf engine or developing something new? Do you envisage an engine running at a single speed?
I've been deeply critical of automotive manufacturers' choice of engines and their lamentable decisions may be why RExs have disappeared. I'll wait until you've answered the off-the-shelf engine question before expanding on ideas I have that are far more appropriate to RExs that what has gone before.

For the sake of simplicity I'd expect early range extenders to use off the shelf gennies minus the on-board fuel tank and probably minus the frame. But it seems some EVs wire banks of battery cells in series/parallel depending on whether they're being charged or discharged, so can imagine the ideal setup needing the alternator (I say alternator because it points specifically to the electric generation component in a generator) winding differently to suit... Otherwise (without further complication / electronics) the generator might only be able to recharge the battery bank when parked up with the 'ignition' off which would be far from ideal for a range extender. The ideal setup would be able to charge the car when parked up and also give the battery some charge while it is being driven.

[Pinger]

For the sake of simplicity I'd expect early range extenders to use off the shelf gennies minus the on-board fuel tank and probably minus the frame. But it seems some EVs wire banks of battery cells in series/parallel depending on whether they're being charged or discharged, so can imagine the ideal setup needing the alternator (I say alternator because it points specifically to the electric generation component in a generator) winding differently to suit... Otherwise (without further complication / electronics) the generator might only be able to recharge the battery bank when parked up with the 'ignition' off which would be far from ideal for a range extender. The ideal setup would be able to charge the car when parked up and also give the battery some charge while it is being driven.

RExs when they were offered had the capability to supply electricity on the move - which requires a high level of integration.
Re-charge management (and you are correct it is very complex) is only available to 'us' via the car's external charging socket. At 240V any stand-alone generating set will get the job done - eventually. Tesla's common place chargers charge at 150kW - some 200hp. 250kW is mooted. Porsche went from 400 to 800V as the current level for recharging with 400V at the pace customers demand was making the re-charging cables heavier than could be lifted/handled.
I suspect that with high re-charge rates being required, fitment of an appropriate REx enters reinventing the hybrid territory. There, the traction motors (with suitable mechanical decoupling) could be deployed as generators (as they are during regenerative braking) to recharge a battery with the car parked up. Finding space for a 200hp ICE engine needs tackling at the design stage and I'm not certain that many countries permit an unattended vehicle to have an ICE running - even decoupled mechanically (arguably a conventional car in neutral is that).

Possibly it would be more viable with the likes of Citroen's new Ami where everything is scaled down and while short re-charging times (2 hours) are being seen as the answer to how to maximise the utilisation of lamp-post recharging (the maximum number of EVs charged from one point over a specific time period) the actual logistics have been ignored. That is, being available at midnight to gain access to an about to be vacated charge point and again at 02.00 to disconnect and make available for another user who gets the 02.00 to 04.00 shift - rinse, repeat... But given that's a city scenario, engines droning on through the night won't be welcomed if even permitted. Still, I have a lovely little (LPG friendly) engine concept for that I'm not even taking to proof of concept stage because I can't see any potential uptake.

[LPGC]

I wouldn't be talking a 200kw onboard gennie, the size and weight of such a unit would be ridiculous / impossible to retrofit on most EVs. But if during a 60mph cruise an EV uses (say) 15kw then a 7.5kw gennie would double the range. Drive for a couple of hours and stop for a break somewhere scenic and off-grid for an hour and triple the range.

[Pinger]

I wouldn't be talking a 200kw onboard gennie, the size and weight of such a unit would be ridiculous / impossible to retrofit on most EVs. But if during a 60mph cruise an EV uses (say) 15kw then a 7.5kw gennie would double the range. Drive for a couple of hours and stop for a break somewhere scenic and off-grid for an hour and triple the range.

I hate being this negative but I don't think your plan will fly. For a number of reasons (i will elaborate on if asked) I don't think it viable. And I'd hate to see you waste your time on something that ultimately has no future. Trust me, I've done enough of that for both of us and rewarding it isn't!

[LPGC]

I hate being this negative but I don't think your plan will fly. For a number of reasons (i will elaborate on if asked) I don't think it viable. And I'd hate to see you waste your time on something that ultimately has no future. Trust me, I've done enough of that for both of us and rewarding it isn't!

Don't worry mate, better to be realistic than overly optimistic. I'd appreciate knowing your thoughts.

[Pinger]

Prepare to be depressed. Ask you partner for handkerchiefs, your pharmacist for further assistance...

Battery recharging is an art form. The temperature of each cell is monitored and current diverted from any that are at higher temperature than others. This thermal management is critical to battery life expectancy and is programmed into the vehicle and it’s not unreasonable to assume given the interconnectedness of EVs to the internet that these strategies can be updated when better ones appear. Thermal management during recharging is also crucial in preventing fires.
Charging an EV with a REx with both driving and re-gen braking (alternately) in progress wont be catered for in the programming. The converse – it really wants to know that its connecting cable has been disconnected before allowing it to be driven. Hacking into that to permit REx on the move will require considerable programming expertise, may be denied by existing software, may be illegal given the pending regulations re originality/lack of tampering with original fit systems (the regulation that had the classic car crowd in a lather lest upgrades such as electronic ignition be outlawed).
Then there’s the physicality of connecting an REx to the car’s wiring which would be downstream of its charge socket (a charge socket that will also see 400V when connected to a rapid charger).

If only recharging stationary were pursued much of the above would disappear. You’d only have to fool the car into thinking it is being recharged from a 240V AC source via its external socket. But the limitation of 240V AC becomes apparent when you look at battery capacities. The smallest (outside the Citroen Ami which technically isn’t a car but a quadricycle) battery is the 26.8kW.hr one fitted to the Dacia Spring. From a 240V 7.5kW generator, one hour of charging would replenish its battery by 28% and that is assuming it could accept the full 7.5kW (it will in the early stage of recharging but as the battery nears full charge it will restrict that (thermal management). A couple of hours might net 50% of charge. Typically though, EVs have batteries around 50kW.hr though it’s reasonable to assume that cheaper EVs will be closer to the Dacia. When we get to the stage where a couple of hours are required, we might be better parked and hooked up to mains supply and know for certain we can leave the vehicle unattended – which may be outlawed at present with a running ICE as REx. The recent requirement for ICE vehicles to have stop/start systems suggests that an engine running in a stationary vehicle wont be tolerated - on roads/public land at least.

The physical implications of finding space for a REx unit while ensuring it is adequately cooled, doesn’t present a fire hazard and doesn’t negate any accident protection measures (ie, not be installed within a deformable crush structure) and its accompanying fuel tank are considerations you can adequately assess yourself. Suffice to say that the vehicle that is large enough to have the required space will likely have a battery much larger than the Dacia’s and the need for a larger REx – and on it goes....
The change of status and if it attracts VED, is or isn’t permitted in zero/low emission zones and any difficulties in its end user obtaining insurance would have to be researched. BMW’s I3 (the only EV I can think of that (once but no more) offered a REx) was criticised for having a tiny petrol tank. The reason for this was that Californian regulations called for range with an ICE running to be less than its range on battery power alone to qualify legally as an EV and thus enjoy all the tax and access advantages. That’s an example of what I mean by ‘change of status’.

As electrification continues, recharging infrastructure is found wanting, older EVs are on the road with degrading batteries offering less range than when new, I can see a situation where people want control/reassurance in the form of being able to fire up an ICE and recharge (or have a top-up charge) irrespective of the grid being inaccessible or out of order. I can see people choosing to carry a portable gen set – as some already do. If there’s a marketing opportunity in might be in developing such a generator focussing on light weight and compactness – possibly running on LPG from a tank permanently fitted to the vehicle (or existing gas bottles) via a flexible tube. Or clipped to a tow bar/cycle rack for when required. (On private land, all possible illegalities wouldn't exist). Integrating it completely into the vehicle for stationary use would be challenging and for use on the move nigh on impossible I suspect - and possibly undesirable (eg access to zero emission zones, etc). Compared to dragging a gen-set out of the boot and connecting it to the existing charge socket, full integration raises the question: is the juice worth the squeeze?

[LPGC]

Thanks Pinger.

No argument mate but if we're throwing ideas around or being devil's advocates...

I knew a bit about the thermal management but didn't think it would amount to much of a problem because it wouldn't actually be charging during driving, instead the genny would be supplying some of the power that the electric motor(s) were using. i.e. If you put a 12v car battery on a 10amp charge but at the same time run 4 x 60 watt bulbs from it (so draw 20 amps) the battery will never overheat from over-charging, in fact it doesn't see a charge but sees a 10amp draw, where without being on the 10amp charge it would see a 20amp draw. Back on the subject of the EV, still some cells could get hotter than others, but I might expect cells being discharged at half (the would be without the genny) rate to at least lower the total/overall battery heat during discharge and for the vehicle's normal cell balancing electronics to more than be able to cope under those conditions - in fact the cell/heat balancing system might be less strained under those conditions? Regen + genny charging would be either very short term (stamping on the brakes from 100mph soon sees speed roll off) or during gentle braking still an order of magnitude lower than the heat / cell balancing has to deal with during rapid charging? I.e. Do we need to worry much about cell balancing and heat if a battery can handle a 100kw charge but we're only talking the difference between an average 15kw draw and an average 7.5kw draw? Do we need to worry much about balancing if regen would itself produce 90kw of charge and adding the genny takes the total to 97.5kw (or 30kw vs 37.5kw, etc)? I would expect getting the data for how batteries are wired (and a genny to suit that wiring) and the running of an engine in the boot (exhaust, heat, space constraints etc) to be the bigger concerns? The promise of double range more than outweighing slight increase in battery wear and tear? There's the prospect of making an older EV with worn out battery that could cost tens of thousands of pounds to replace have decent range again at a fraction of the cost of replacing the battery.

Not sure on the legalities or if I'd worry much about that at this stage, especially if the setup could easily be unbolted/removed. Plenty owners go camping and take a small genny and a gas bottle with them, that's legal. Maybe running a genny in the boot wouldn't be legal, but difficult to prove if the kill switch on the dash is used during the time it took for someone in authority to pull you over and walk up to your car. Plenty might buy even if 'not quite in the spirit of the law' if it could easily be removed. The seller/fitter's position could be that it is done on the understanding that the EV was going to be used off-road.

I'm far from expert in the field, interesting to read your insights, hope I'm making sense too heh!

[Pinger]

Thanks Pinger.

No argument mate but if we're throwing ideas around or being devil's advocates...

Absolutely not arguing - debating!

I knew a bit about the thermal management but didn't think it would amount to much of a problem because it wouldn't actually be charging during driving, instead the genny would be supplying some of the power that the electric motor(s) were using. i.e. If you put a 12v car battery on a 10amp charge but at the same time run 4 x 60 watt bulbs from it (so draw 20 amps) the battery will never overheat from over-charging, in fact it doesn't see a charge but sees a 10amp draw, where without being on the 10amp charge it would see a 20amp draw. Back on the subject of the EV, still some cells could get hotter than others, but I might expect cells being discharged at half (the would be without the genny) rate to at least lower the total/overall battery heat during discharge and for the vehicle's normal cell balancing electronics to more than be able to cope under those conditions - in fact the cell/heat balancing system might be less strained under those conditions? Regen + genny charging would be either very short term (stamping on the brakes from 100mph soon sees speed roll off) or during gentle braking still an order of magnitude lower than the heat / cell balancing has to deal with during rapid charging? I.e. Do we need to worry much about cell balancing and heat if a battery can handle a 100kw charge but we're only talking the difference between an average 15kw draw and an average 7.5kw draw? Do we need to worry much about balancing if regen would itself produce 90kw of charge and adding the genny takes the total to 97.5kw (or 30kw vs 37.5kw, etc)?

Valid points from a perspective I'd not considered.
Don't though underestimate the extent of re-gen braking and thus recharging rate. A mate has a Tesla Model 3 Performance and when he lifted off the go pedal I thought he's slammed the brake pedal. He hadn't even touched it. Brief though as you say and in the scenario of REx use you are discussing (steady speed cruise), less prevalent.

I would expect getting the data for how batteries are wired (and a genny to suit that wiring) and the running of an engine in the boot (exhaust, heat, space constraints etc) to be the bigger concerns?

Do you mean in terms of 'wiring in' your REx or how the batteries are connected in the overall scheme of its being?
If the latter, less of a concern than getting the OEM programming to play along I suspect. My fear is 'computer says no' at the slightest variation outwith its expected norm.

The promise of double range more than outweighing slight increase in battery wear and tear?

Battery life is virtually determined by number of full discharge and recharge cycles. By avoiding the extremes, you could be improving battery life. You are also at risk of reinventing the parallel hybrid though.

There's the prospect of making an older EV with worn out battery that could cost tens of thousands of pounds to replace have decent range again at a fraction of the cost of replacing the battery.

That could potentially be of use. Less 'range extender', more 'vehicle life time extender'. Extrapolated to the absurd though, replacing the entire electrical drivetrain with an ICE, gearbox and diff would do the same. My point is that any introduction of an ICE has a whiff of that and will be resisted. It's broadly characterised by the requirement that: 'the emissions of a vehicle are expected to remain throughout its life as they were when new'.
Less 'integrated' would be cheaper (suit target customer who otherwise would be buying newer or replacing a failing battery).

Not sure on the legalities or if I'd worry much about that at this stage, especially if the setup could easily be unbolted/removed. Plenty owners go camping and take a small genny and a gas bottle with them, that's legal. Maybe running a genny in the boot wouldn't be legal, but difficult to prove if the kill switch on the dash is used during the time it took for someone in authority to pull you over and walk up to your car. Plenty might buy even if 'not quite in the spirit of the law' if it could easily be removed. The seller/fitter's position could be that it is done on the understanding that the EV was going to be used off-road.

The less permanently integrated, the less problematic legally.
More thoroughly integrated and with a will to stamp out such a practice would see vehicles being impounded (for further inspection), refusal of MOT tests (which means IVA testing and new legal status with 'emissions unknown' classification which puts it in the highest VED band), etc. That a REx was still hot would be proof enough of its use. A running engine in the boot is dubious, with a hatchback, probably impossible.
I suspect the public would want it legally watertight. Imagine a scenario where they were commuting daily for a considerable period of time (months/years) into a zero emissions zone where the vehicle was originally exempt from (financial) charges then being told on account of the car no longer meeting the criteria the backlog of charges has to be paid.

I'm far from expert in the field, interesting to read your insights, hope I'm making sense too heh!

You are making sense. Nonetheless, I return to my three main points of contention.
1) The sheer difficulty of integrating on-the-move charging with the vehicles electronic programming. (Mechanical engineers (such as yourself) share knowledge as though obtaining it came at no cost to them whatsoever. Computer programmers wont even answer a question digitally ie, yes or no. You will have little option but (try to) work with them).
2) The legal aspect of changing the status of the vehicle from its initially homologated specification.
3) The reinventing the parallel hybrid aspect. The EVs that will be the earliest available to you have a (typically) battery capacity of 50kW.hr and are far from lightweight which adds to their rolling resistance. I can't see how they can go down the road at a steady 60mph without a minimum of 20hp (15kw). This is double your envisaged 7.5kW rate of recharge and as we go down this route a higher efficiency gen-set (in terms of size and weight) becomes desirable. These efficiencies come from increased operating rpm - not the domain of off-the-shelf gen-sets.

The more this is discussed, the more I envisage a better than so far available gen-set and it being used external to the vehicle (except for perhaps its fuel tank) but inevitably only usable when parked. If the generator part was replaced with say, a motor (capable at running at circa 10,000rpm) from an EV driven by a better engine, charging at 400V and at much higher power may be possible and at a weight still manageable. In essence, portable fast charging.

[LPGC]

Absolutely not arguing - debating!

Agreed, those are the words I was looking for

I would expect getting the data for how batteries are wired (and a genny to suit that wiring) and the running of an engine in the boot (exhaust, heat, space constraints etc) to be the bigger concerns?

Do you mean in terms of 'wiring in' your REx or how the batteries are connected in the overall scheme of its being?
If the latter, less of a concern than getting the OEM programming to play along I suspect. My fear is 'computer says no' at the slightest variation outwith its expected norm.

Could be wrong but I'm under the impression that some EVs wire battery 'modules' in a different configuration (of series and parallel) depending on whether the vehicle is being driven or if it is being charged from 240v, or 400v, etc. Obviously there are lots of individual little cells wired in parallel, by 'module' I mean a group of these little cells that are wired in parallel and then the groups themselves are wired is series. We could call each such module a battery in it's own right. I.e. A lot of conventional ice engine'd trucks use 24v electrical systems but they have 2 x 12v batteries... We could describe such setup as a single 24v battery consisting of 2 x 12v modules (it makes no difference that the 2 modules are connected in series by an external connection, it is still a 24v battery, just that instead of 12 cells all being wired in series internally we have 6 cells wired in series internally and another group of 6 cells wired in series internally, and then the 2 groups of 6 series cells have an external series connection - but only while they're on the vehicle, if we remove them from the vehicle they become 2 modules of 6 series wired cells unless we wire in our own series connection between them). Or we could more accurately describe the truck's battery setup as 2 x 12v modules wired in series each consisting of 6 x 2v cells wired in series. We can't change the internal hard wiring of each 12v module but we (or electronics) can change how those modules are wired together (series / parallel / no connection /just the positives connected together / just the negatives connected together). The difference comes when we want to charge them.. We'd expect the 24v truck to have 2 batteries (modules) of 12v so we'd expect to be able to remove the batteries and charge them at separate times from a single 12v charger (or we could remove them from the vehicle where they're always wired in series, put them on a bench, wire them in parallel and still charge them from a single 12v charger). But if we were surprised because it turned out the vehicle really did have a single module of 24v we wouldn't be able to do that, we would only ever be able to charge it using a 24v charger regardless of whether we did it in-situ still installed on the vehicle or took the battery off and put it on a bench. If the 2 x 12v batteries have a hard wired series connection we cannot use a single 12v charger to charge them both at the same time by simply connecting a second set of crocodile clips to the charger because the positive of one battery is connected to the negative to the other, so if we attempted it using 2 sets of crocodile clips we'd be shorting out the charger. Using a single 12v charger we would need to charge both modules at separate times so we at least need electrical access to the series connection between the 2 batteries. We could charge the permanently series connected 12v modules (24v) using a 24v charger but then we couldn't charge the 2 modules if we did disconnect the permanent series connection between the 2 modules (we couldn't use the 24v charger to charge a 12v battery). Even if we had 2 x 12v chargers, if the input source came from the same feed (say 240v AC feed) some interesting and unwanted electrical aspects can happen if we try to charge the 2 x 12 modules separately while they still have the series connection (depending on the design of the charger design itself). One workaround for a transformer or generator type charger would be for the transformer/generator to be 24v total output but with it's winding to be centre-tapped, the centre tap would see positive 12v between the centre tap and one of the other outputs and -12v between the centre tap and the other output... Could wire the centre tap to the series connector between modules and the other 2 rectified outputs to the 24v positive and negative of the 2 x 12v modules wired in series. Now if we disconnect one of the modules from the charger the other module will still get a charge. Back to the case of EVs which might wire modules up in different configurations depending on driving/charging mode, if we have a charger with a single output we could find that it charges OK during charge mode or charge mode but shorts out the charger or some modules during the other mode. If we want the genny to work in multiple modes then we might need a separate output to each module. Such genny could still have just one engine but have a separate dynamo/alternator for each module with no electrical common between the dynamos / alternators, or it could have a single dyanmo/alternator with some sort of decoupling electronics to allow charging separate modules regardless of how those modules are wired (series/parallel or no connection) to each other.

[Pinger]

LPGC: Re post # 29. I honestly cannot begin to answer or adequately respond because all of that 'stuff' is way beyond me. For sure I understand the concept of series and parallel connections but switching between them and/or circumventing them isn't anything I have more than the most rudimentary knowledge of. The intricacies of which you talk I suspect are under the control of whatever the power electronics have been programmed to do.

What knowledge of RExs I have comes from the engine side and what I've gleaned from that is that weight and space consideration require high speed generators. Even conventional 12V alternators are running much faster than off-the-shelf gen sets. Judging by the pulley sizes, my Chevy's alternator is happy to spin up to 20,000 rpm. EV traction motors (which serve as generators during re-gen braking) are spinning north of 10,000 rpm.

What I remember of the BMW I3 with optional REx is that it was owner configurable by the driver to some extent. One capability it had was to switch in REx generation even though the battery didn't require it - if the driver wanted to conserve remaining battery charge for entering a zero emission zone. Mainly though IIRC driver control concentrated on at what level of battery depletion the REx was activated - the driver knowing how soon his journey's end was or its next recharging possibility.
Why RExs vanished I do not know. I suspect a slight increase in battery efficiency made it more viable for the OEMs to devote the space/weight/cost a REx would have absorbed to a larger battery and gaining a bit more range by that method - and providing a higher headline figure to advertise given that range capability is the new top speed in marketing terms.
Mahle developed an off-the -shelf REx solution (see links below) but as far as I can ascertain, it was left on the shelf...

https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/exp ... er-engine/
https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/media/ ... engine.pdf

[SteveMJ_new]

I have signed the petition.

When I had my vehicle converted in 2009 there were at least three LPG fuel outlets within a 5 mile radius. Now the nearest is 20 miles away and has recently been unrelable as a source. Fortunately I used to pass an oulet when I visited a couple of clients 50 miles away. Both of these station no longer sell LPG.

My MP was the transport minister until a week or so ago. In retrospect I should have lobbied him.

[Gilbertd]

I think we'd be better off suggesting it to the independent forecourt operators such as Applegreen and Euro Garages. I've just come back from a 3,900 mile round trip to Latvia and back. LPG availability in France is regular, in Belgium the same, the Netherlands are installing LPG pumps at more forecourts than there used to be, Germany has it everywhere (along with CNG and even some H2 outlets), but in Poland, Lithuania and Latvia, not only is it available at most filling stations (those that don't do it are in the minority) but there are also unmanned LPG only stations. A large tank, a pump and a card machine. No staff costs, open 24 hours, presumably the card machine uses 4G to validate payments (much like the handheld units being found everywhere these days) so could also report on tank level and status.

If just one operator, looked at the Autogas.app and picked the areas with little or no coverage and kept the prices reasonable, they'd be much like the ones in Europe at night time with a queue of customers waiting to fill up. I assume that some sort of barrier would need to be around the pump so nobody drove into it, a cage to stop anyone mucking around with it and a canopy for when it is peeing it down, but would only require a small area and to keep the veggies happy they could install an EV charge point too. I can't see the set up costs being that high either. Anyone any other thoughts?

[Brian_H]

Applegreen probably a waste of time, I used to work on some of their sites and their attitude to lpg wasn't positive generally bordered on ripping it out if anything.

It's telling that the only station left near me now is routinely running out on a Sunday, going through 6000 litres a week since the other remaining station went a couple of months ago.

[LPGC]

If just one operator, looked at the Autogas.app and picked the areas with little or no coverage and kept the prices reasonable, they'd be much like the ones in Europe at night time with a queue of customers waiting to fill up. I assume that some sort of barrier would need to be around the pump so nobody drove into it, a cage to stop anyone mucking around with it and a canopy for when it is peeing it down, but would only require a small area and to keep the veggies happy they could install an EV charge point too. I can't see the set up costs being that high either. Anyone any other thoughts?

I would personally be up for investing in such setup(s). It seems crazy of suppliers such as Calor and Flogas that they don't see the opportunity and do it themselves.

One of the problems is that anyone such as myself setting up would be the customer of a supplier firm such as Calor or Flogas, and they (ridiculously) don't want to talk numbers (or not realistic numbers) when asked how much they would supply gas for...

Nobody is going to invest in such site only to find that they can't compete with a station 20 miles away, because the price they could buy gas for from such supplier is more expensive than they could buy from that forecourt 20 miles away. Why can the forecourt 20 miles away sell gas at a lower price than is quoted by all the suppliers - it doesn't make sense. If you're a small time reseller of LPG you don't expect to get the same bulk discount from a supplier such as Calor or Flogas as a large/major forecourt operator such as Morrisons, but you certainly don't expect to pay a higher price to buy from the supplier than a large reseller can charge their retail customers! That would be like running a convenience shop but paying more for a loaf of X brand bread from your supplier than you could buy it at retail cost for from the nearest supermarket. Why would you use such supplier when you could just go to your supermarket and buy 100 loaves at 5am to sell in your shop? You probably wouldn't do that because nobody would buy the bread you sold at the price you'd need to charge to cover your own expenses, it wouldn't make for a viable business.

It isn't as though the large operators like Morrisons sell LPG at a loss, and it isn't as though it would cost any more to supply the small time operator than the large operator... E.g. Imagine a small time seller 'out in the sticks' so 30 miles from the next nearest forecourt selling LPG and 30 miles further for a supplier's delivery truck to reach them - So it costs the supplier an extra 60 miles worth of diesel for the delivery truck and an 90 minutes driver's pay... But the truck might deliver 5000 litres to this customer out in the sticks and £60 in diesel for the 60 miles and £60 in wages mean only £120 to deliver the 5000 litres. 120/5000 so the cost of delivery to the small time operator is only 2.4p per litre assuming the delivery truck has to go completely out of it's way to visit the small time operator (while of course it costs the supplier a similar amount to deliver to Morrisons too).

Say again that the trade body that represents UK suppliers is behind anti competition practices of it's suppliers. But if anti competition practices exist to maximise prices and prevent any firms undercutting the others then this type of anti competition goes too far even regards their own interests... because it means less LPG is sold in total and less profit is made in total than would be if they just left everything to normal market forces.

[Gilbertd]

I'm not talking about installing a site in areas where there is an alternative 20 or 30 miles away, I'm talking about the places that don't have anywhere for the best part of 100 miles. Head north out of London on the A1 and the first filling station is at Wittering, about 90 miles further north, after that there's 3 off the A1 around Doncaster, then nothing until Boroughbridge (and that is off the main road).

[LPGC]

I'd be interested in being involved in setting up LPG filing places along the A1.

[colin33]

I'm 52 now (getting old land feeling it lol) and expect to be able to run a vehicle on LPG during all my life. Maybe I'll also own an EV in future, I don't know.

. The greenest cars at the moment are old cars that run on LPG or CNG.

Hear hear on that one Simon, my 3 conversions are still going strong at 25, 20 and 16 years old...
The problem here in Cornwall is the lack of anyone able to do conversions in the county. We now have a privately owned lpg outlet with 7500L tank capacity, all we need now is someone to convert some cars locally and create an interest!

Colin..

[LPGC]

I'm 52 now (getting old land feeling it lol) and expect to be able to run a vehicle on LPG during all my life. Maybe I'll also own an EV in future, I don't know.

. The greenest cars at the moment are old cars that run on LPG or CNG.

Hear hear on that one Simon, my 3 conversions are still going strong at 25, 20 and 16 years old...
The problem here in Cornwall is the lack of anyone able to do conversions in the county. We now have a privately owned lpg outlet with 7500L tank capacity, all we need now is someone to convert some cars locally and create an interest!

Colin..

I have plenty customers that come to me from their homes in Cornwall (and Northern Scotland lol) mate..

And I got to know the guy who set up the LPG filling station near Portreath.

Ample opportunity for other people to set up other LPG filling stations around Cornwall?

[SteveMJ_new]

I recently contacted Sainsbury's, as there station at North watford is the nearest to me for LPG, even though it is a >20 mile round trip. I quieried the lack of LPG there and they replied:

Dear Stephen,

Thanks for getting back to us.

I’m afraid that Sainsbury’s has now reached a similar conclusion to some of our competitors and has also begun the withdrawal of LPG from our estate. We anticipate that this will be completed by early 2023. This is both a commercial decision (due to low sales in the declining market) and a health and safety one, based on the increased risks of retailing LPG. I'm sorry for any disappointment or inconvenience this may cause.

Thanks again for taking the time to get in touch, and I hope you have a great day.
Kind regards,

Matthew | Sainsbury's Careline
Sainsbury's Supermarkets Ltd

For me there is no local LPG supplier, even when they have it

[Brian_H]

Low sales are more down to their unreliability than anything else. London gateway services probably your closest next option. The Esso off junction 9 does do it, but at a price of 130.9 it's not worth it. There is a boatyard in Watford area shown on autogas.app but I've not used it to confirm, and the hours it's open are limited.