Setting up an lpg station and is this the death of lpg?

[Tinleytech]

Further to the above posts, next week we will have DI kits to convert some of the 4.2 V8 Audi Fsi engines (& 3.2 Cayenne)
tinleytech.co.uk

[LPGC]

Further to the above posts, next week we will have DI kits to convert some of the 4.2 V8 Audi Fsi engines (& 3.2 Cayenne)
tinleytech.co.uk

Nice one! How would you fancy an Audi, Wilmott?

you'd never make it as far as the next charging point so effectively you are restricted in where you can drive.

Could always carry or tow a large generator, presuming nothing came of Tesla's experiments with 'electrical power without wires'. They might be holding other technology back, next product might mean we don't need cars at all... some people believe Tesla invented a teleport device.

I wonder if there's an option for the Tesla for a pre-emptive vehicle thief deterrent - I'm thinking Tesla coils installed about the vehicle, owner stands well back and arms the system using the remote keyfob.. Not many people would venture too close

For that V8 soundtrack, you could always put a loud exhaust on the P38 mate? I've had some customers that have done that!

Simon

[classicswede]

Is there not that Australian kit that plays a V8 sound using the alternator to get the RPM sound about right?

[Gilbertd]

For that V8 soundtrack, you could always put a loud exhaust on the P38 mate?

I've already gutted the cats to remove a bit of the restriction but the old LR V8 just doesn't rev high enough. With a red line at 5,500 rpm it is never going to sound like an Aston or big AMG where you can almost hear each firing stroke sounding like someone is hammering something heavy as it screams up to 7,000.......

[LPGC]

it is never going to sound like an Aston or big AMG where you can almost hear each firing stroke sounding like someone is hammering something heavy as it screams up to 7,000.......

Could always have one of those RPI engine and ECU upgrades that makes max bhp at 7200rpm fitted mate! Other than that, would probably hear a few short lived other types of hammering noises from the engine at those revs V8s do sound great at high rpm but they don't sound bad near normal red lines or cruising rpm either!

Is there not that Australian kit that plays a V8 sound using the alternator to get the RPM sound about right?

Hmm, I wonder if I should get one of those along with one of those other speaker setups that makes a sound supposedly like a dump valve (seemed popular around here with boy racers for a while in the 90's), for my Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 - Maybe not!

I've just changed the plugs on said vehicle and what a job, I'd rank it almost equal in difficulty to changing the plugs on my old V12 BMW. The front side plugs extremely easy, rear 3 plugs a total PITA, 1 needing the alternator swiveled out of the way for access which involves removing the bulkhead tray holding the wiper mechanism etc, 2 plugs just reachable from underneath but not from the top even with the alternator moved. Next time I do the plugs I'll just take the top of the manifold off for easy access! Anyway, when I've had the manifolds off these vehicles in the past (head gaskets / changed gearboxes / converted them to LPG etc), it has struck me it would seem simple enough to fit a turbo. I'd like a bit more torque for towing (caravan / boat), as I currently keep it in 3rd gear so the torque convertor stays locked and doesn't heat the gearbox so much as it would in 4th with the convertor slipping - just a bit more torque would allow 4th gear cruising with the convertor locked up. I wonder if a turbo off an old Volvo T5 would be suitable, (ahem Dai), and if you have anything knocking about to sell me? Obviously the fueling and ignition timing would need sorting to suit but shouldn't prove difficult, I'd worry about that later. Serious thoughts! The 3.8 model might be an idea, some of which are 4x4 (another plus for boating) but models in the price range I'd pay for a vehicle are older models and all left hookers while the higher ratio box would probably put me back to square one anyway. I'd rather not change the vehicle (I know this is a good 'un), need the seats and luggage space, or a 7 seat Disco / ML etc might be suitable. Diesels and manuals not really a consideration, I obviously prefer LPG bit I also prefer autos in big none-sporty vehicles, plus I don't want to be spending half a day after towing the boat / caravan removing diesel film!

Simon

[Gilbertd]

Could always have one of those RPI engine and ECU upgrades that makes max bhp at 7200rpm fitted mate!

As my engine was rebuild by V8 Developments, I'd rather go to them. Better quality workmanship, cheaper price and no bullsh*t about how everyone else knows nothing about these engines and RPi are the only people that understand them. I visited RPi once and can honestly say that I don't think I've ever met such an arrogant tw*t in all my life. V8 Developments will do me a 400 bhp, 5.4 litre version if I wave enough ten pound notes under their nose though. But in a Range Rover? In a TVR or something like that then maybe but it's not really the right engine for the car when I want to drag a 3 tonne trailer around behind me.

I'd like a bit more torque for towing (caravan / boat), as I currently keep it in 3rd gear so the torque convertor stays locked and doesn't heat the gearbox so much as it would in 4th with the convertor slipping

What speed do you have to be doing before the converter locks up then? I'm looking at 50 mph in the P38 and once locked up stays like that until it drops down a gear if I let it slow down.

Wouldn't you need a pair of turbos on a Vee? One in each downpipe?

[LPGC]

Agreed on all points about RPI mate, I've had my own arguments with them in the past and recently. My post was intended to take the mick a bit, at their expense not yours! They once tried to have an EBay ad I listed removed, because in the ad I explained that I was selling a superior sequential DIY kit with tech support etc for a lower price than their single point OMVL kit offering, or that I could supply the same OMVL single point kit for much less than their price but wouldn't advise it over the sequential kit. They had a right moan to FES and asked Nick to ask me to remove the ad, claiming I wasn't going to supply the same single point kit that they would! After I'd told Nick that if I supplied a single point kit it would comprise an R90 and Millenium, Nick had no problem with my ad. More recently, I've noticed they advise all OMVL kit for supercharged Rangerovers, they probably won't thank me for being so publicly open about my thoughts on their choice of components and advice on their YouTube ad...

Only 43mph for the convertor lockup in top (4th) gear, or 30mph in 3rd. In 4th at 60 rpm is 2k, 3k in 3rd. The A614 transmission in these isn't the strongest unit in the world and heat generated from convertor slip won't help. Trans runs a lot cooler with convertor locked up but there isn't enough power at 2000rpm to pull the trailer at 60mph, it will just about manage it on the flat at 65 mph in top but at 2000rpm it keeps deciding to unlock the convertor due to tps, but map is already about atmospheric anyway. The last owner of my previous same model (I've still got it) had already fitted a secondary trans-cooler (in addition to the standard one built into the water-rad) but it's probably a bit small to keep the trans as cool as I'd like when towing with a slipping convertor - so I ran that in 3rd when towing too. I haven't fitted a second trans cooler on this one but probably will, though it would still be nice to have enough torque (would only need a bit more) for towing up slight inclines etc in top gear.

Simon

[Gilbertd]

On one of the Range Rover forums someone posted that he was going to convert to LPG using the RPi kit. I asked if he was made of money and pointed out what the kit consisted of and that he could buy it for half the price elsewhere. A couple of weeks later he posted thanking me as he'd saved over £400. If they knew I suspect I wouldn't be on their Christmas card list either.

Anyway, this is getting well off topic and not answering the OPs questions. TT have told us that they have the kit so he can have an Audi DI V8 converted to LPG so that's one question answered, but how about setting up a filling station? While I've no experience at all, I would say that he needs to identify a supplier that will supply at the right price and ask them what tank they will fill. Not sure if it would work out cheaper to buy road fuel duty paid or buy bulk LPG and pay the road fuel duty himself though.

[rossko]

Our retail tank is leased from Countrywide; a skid mounted tank with delivery pump/meter all in one.
Contractually bound to Countrywide to supply the fuel of course. This comes already autogas duty-paid, we do not pay HMRC (except VAT as usual).
For our purposes we need only sell enough to break even on the tank, and do not consider it a big earner.

This is okay for a yard operation, but would not do for a 'proper' forecourt where you might want to bury the tank and would certainly need remotely read/controlled pump. I think you'd need to buy for that. Whoever currently supplies the petrol/diesel equipment side of the forecourt will know all about that.

Prins DI is available for Audi V8, suprisingly not yet for Merc or Beemer which must represent a key target market. Jag would be market small fry, but I would still expect availability sometime due to the Land Rover variants.

The death of LPG has been widely predicted since at least 1980, due to this and that reasons.
The death of all fossil fuels is indeed inevitable, but not just yet ...

[N_Willmott]

Three simple observations. Looking at the Tesla charging map, it strikes me that if you live in Edinburgh you can charge up and drive around. If you headed south though, you'd never make it as far as the next charging point so effectively you are restricted in where you can drive.

Secondly, are ALL desirable large luxury cars on the market today direct injection?

Finally, what's the point in something that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds if the progress isn't accompanied by the howl of a big V8 or V10 engine at full chat? If I had the money I'd buy an Aston V8 Vantage just for the noise it makes!

First point - the map ONLY includes the Tesla Superchargers which charge the car in about 30 mins or so to full and for FREE. A quick web search shows there are plenty of other charging stations - or just use a standard 3 pin plug.

Second point - all the post 2007 cars that I am looking at (V8s) seem to be DI.

Third point - agree regarding the sound but then again these days in the later cars the sound is 'synthesised' through the speakers anyway and if it can do 0-60 in 3, running costs are minimal and there are tax benefits, I think I can live with that. You never know, combustion engines may become weekend cars

Cheers.

Nige.

[N_Willmott]

Our retail tank is leased from Countrywide; a skid mounted tank with delivery pump/meter all in one.
Contractually bound to Countrywide to supply the fuel of course. This comes already autogas duty-paid, we do not pay HMRC (except VAT as usual).
For our purposes we need only sell enough to break even on the tank, and do not consider it a big earner.

This is okay for a yard operation, but would not do for a 'proper' forecourt where you might want to bury the tank and would certainly need remotely read/controlled pump. I think you'd need to buy for that. Whoever currently supplies the petrol/diesel equipment side of the forecourt will know all about that.

Prins DI is available for Audi V8, suprisingly not yet for Merc or Beemer which must represent a key target market. Jag would be market small fry, but I would still expect availability sometime due to the Land Rover variants.

The death of LPG has been widely predicted since at least 1980, due to this and that reasons.
The death of all fossil fuels is indeed inevitable, but not just yet ...

Thanks rossko.

There is no current forecourt - just land for the new proposition but I shall ring around local suppliers and see what's what.

May consider an Audi V8 but I too am surprised that there are no kits for the Mercs or BMs.

Perhaps the 'death of lpg' if a bit dramatic but as DI trickles down to the lower models and our existing cars get older and older, I guess there we will be a limited range from which you can choose to convert and folk like myself who like the bargers will only be able to get an Audi V8 (and only one which the lpg kit manufacturer specify - probably not an S8 or RS6!)

Cheers.

Nige.

[mondeoman]

DI isn't trickling down, it's trickling up. Mitusbishi, Renault, Nissan, Ford, Peugeot, Citroen, Honda, Volvo etc all used DI engines long before BMW or Mercedes, though given the current reliability of Merc and BMW perhaps your right!

[LPGC]

The recent info from TinleyTech (kits available to convert DI Audi V8's) will be news to a lot of us pro installers. Given this news, I would imagine that pretty soon there will be port injection LPG systems available to convert Merc and BMW DI V8's.. As said in a post above, would also anticipate seeing other types (different types explained above) of DI conversion kits for newish V8 DI vehicles, and that eventually such conversions will be as commonplace as port injection systems are today, perhaps even being simpler to fit than current systems and as generic as current systems.

DI isn't trickling down, it's trickling up. Mitusbishi, Renault, Nissan, Ford, Peugeot, Citroen, Honda, Volvo etc all used DI engines long before BMW or Mercedes, though given the current reliability of Merc and BMW perhaps your right!

I think it depends how far we go back and if we're talking about electronic controlled DI or mechanical DI? I'm thinking German WW2 planes using BMW / Daimler-Benz engines and Merc 300SL's from 1955...

On the electric vehicle debate...

I became a bit of Sunday driver last weekend! We had a drive out with no set route or destination other than to get out onto the moors, take in some scenery, do a bit of exploring and hopefully drop on a pub that does a Sunday carvery. We drove South down the A1, M18, M1, entered the Derbyshire Dales from Chesterfield, and only then decided to check the map to see which road(s) seemed likely to be interesting. We decided to visit Bakewell but changed our minds and detoured after spending 20mins in a traffic jam. We drove some interesting peak roads but didn't pass a carvery, so eventually joined the the M1 near Sheffield and drove North to a Wakefield carvery before returning home to South Elmsall. Very much as chance would have it, we ended up doing a total of around 150miles, some of which was hard going in very hilly country, passed several garages that sold petrol / diesel and a couple of those sold LPG at around 60p/litre. My car has a decent range on LPG and the LPG tank was full when we set off, so I didn't bother refueling on the journey as I can buy LPG cheaper locally and didn't think we'd run out during the trip.

My point is that refueling decisions can be made relatively lightly when running on LPG as the only risk involved (running out of LPG) would at worst only increase the vehicle running costs (involve running on petrol) until another garage selling LPG is reached - and I'd expect finding one relatively nearby, if needed, to be easy anyway / worst case scenario I can do 300miles on the petrol 'reserve'! Like most people running LPG vehicles, I want to avoid running on petrol where possible but it isn't the end of the world if I run out. I never factor running on petrol into the driving equation - on rare occasions when I run out of LPG on a journey it seems kind of like I've run out of fuel, yet the car magically keeps on going due to the reserve of petrol that I would usually consider untouchable! A Tesla might have made the full journey on a single charge, but might not (especially if we'd gone a bit further due to nicer weather / found a carvery sooner) but in any case, concerns about running out of charge would have meant planning the journey from the outset to take into account mileage and possible charging points. If I owned a 100% electric vehicle, I doubt I could ever take a decision to pass-by a charging point as lightly as I have ever taken a decision to pass any LPG selling garage, especially on unfamiliar routes / especially when making the route up as you go along! Concerns about the consequences of a flat electric vehicle battery (effectively being stranded for lack of 'fuel', without the possibility of legging it to the nearest garage for a can of petrol) would spoil my enjoyment of the vehicle. The charge time would even be a big negative in my book.. 30mins for a 'superfast' charge would seem too long, never mind the length of time for a standard charge.. This coming from a bloke, who used to be a kid, who dreamed about the adventures I could have had if I'd had the electric vehicle from the 'Logans Run' series!

Simon

[Gilbertd]

You've summed it up nicely Simon. We have the opportunity to go for a drive for the hell of it and see where we end up. We've probably all done it. As a teenager with my first motorbike, I decided to turn left out of the house, then right, then left, then right and just keep going like that to see where I ended up. At odd times in the winter, being in an area that sees the odd light snowflake about once every 3 years, I've seen snow in other parts of the country and set off to find some, only stopping when I've found lots! That we can all do. As you say, I've got a range on a full tank of LPG of around 220 miles and as far as I like on petrol if I can't find any LPG. That sort of random meandering around the country just couldn't be done in an electric car. You'd need to know where you were going so you knew where you could recharge. Or, you'd have to stop at a certain point and turn back whether you wanted to or not because you'd only enough charge left to get back home again.

Bit like a guy that used to work at my place. Ran a diesel Shogun on used veg oil and when I asked him where he filled up he told me at home. My reply was, "so when you go on holiday to the other end of the country or even abroad, where do you fill up then? McDonalds?" Oh no, I never go more than half a tankful from home so I can get back to refill.......

[scottyf]

Electric cars are too heavy. In fact cars in general are too heavy.

Electric bikes on the other hand can be quite viable already. There's no heaters and its all pretty basic and most the electric is used to get you from point A to B.

Cars being heavy mean lots of batteries. Which means more weight.
I made an electric cycle bike. Out of an Anthem X full suspension bike. Direct drive motor and Lipo batteries. Roughly 48v would propel me to 30mph top speed. I had enough range (about 2kw) to do 40miles.

If I wanted to go further I could add battery packs.
Or... I could just slow down would improve my range as electric motors unlike cars to a point the slower you go the less electric you use. So you could ahve a supercar but if you drive at 10mph it would be like using a scooter (To a point again because of weight).

Or I could reconfigure the batteries to multiple of 12v nominal, think I made one the once into a 96v pack short range but it would do 60mph. Range was very small on that but you could overtake most cars. And those little RC lipo batteries (like the ones in the helicopters) could dish out huge amounts of amps meaning torque would easily get the thing to wheelie at 40mph.

I've never ridden anything quite as scary as that.
But it was a hoot.

[scottyf]

Oh also if I flattened the battieries i could revert back to leg power
It was a very very green way of travelling.

[Gilbertd]

But you're still using fossil fuel to charge the batteries.......

[scottyf]

Yes of course. But you use less. Also you could use solar panels on your house and then say charge at home.
That would be free electric to some point. Enough for home and travel.

Yes I see your point.
But you can't change the way you get electric bar the above. Energy needs to come from somewhere.

[LPGC]

Point of interest not to be taken too seriously...

A possible solution would be to fit electric vehicles with both batteries and a radioisotope electric generator, maybe like the type used on space probes or Russian lighthouses out in the middle of nowhere...

Depending on the radioisotope used and/or the principal of operation, these can constantly generate kilowatts of electrical power for a few years or a constant few hundred watts for decades, with output dropping off gradually as the unit ages.

Electric vehicle salesman could offer customers electric vehicles that never needed plugging in yet didn't have an engine. They could probably offer a choice between unlimited range at low cruising speeds and reasonable (fully automatic) recharge times (should you use more power than the generator made) wherever you are without ever needing to plug in, but with a short life / limited range and slow recharge times that would last the majority of most customers driving careers / various options between the two extremes. Some of these types of generator (various thermo-electric types) could also solve the cabin heater issue, maybe even the air-con issue (same principal as camping fridges that run off a heat source).

Not going to happen.. would be very expensive, dangerous in some ways (but maybe not as dangerous as you'd think).. but I can't see any reason this wouldn't be possible! It might seem just like the car out of Logan's Run (well, except it would be a car not a hovercraft), in that when it started to run short of power you'd just need to park up for a few hours to recharge, the car doing it's own recharging (except from the nuclear power unit instead of solar panels)

I could go into a bit more negative detail about the resources needed to produce a radioisotope electric generator, but then I think the same is true for battery technology used in electric vehicles, this being the reason why they are so expensive.

The first electric vehicle I used was a 6v motorbike battery powered toy scooter, second was a go-cart I fitted with a sewing machine motor (and had to use an extension cable to power in the yard), last was a soap-box that used a car window wiper motor and car battery... At around 9 years old my intention was to build on the idea to produce a wooden campervan that me and mates could go exploring in, car batteries seemed the ultimate in terms of power storage back then!



Simon

[Gilbertd]

Nah, you've still got the weak link, the batteries. Over time they lose capacity and still need replacing. A small nuclear fusion reactor is the answer. Tesla type performance and no batteries at all (making it even faster because it will weigh less). Still wouldn't sound right though.....