Setting up an lpg station and is this the death of lpg?

[N_Willmott]

Gents,

On a potentially positive note I am considering setting up an lpg station and wondered if you have any tips as to how to go about it? e.g Purchasing of tanks from where? Obtaining bulk/commercial lpg.

On a potentially negative note I've been wanting a new motor for a few years but none of the new (all DI) large engined stuff seems on the lists of the DI conversions. Is DI conversion ever going to take off as otherwise I hear from my american friends about the new Tesla all electric models (400-700 bhp and 200 - 300 mile range) which are taking off over there and they are soon to launch a more affordable compact version later in the year.

Cheers.

Nige.

[Brian_H]

Trouble with the electric side of things is the rather lacking recharging network currently in place - its getting better, but when you see most of the available points only have space for 2 cars and generally only one of each of the two standard connectors it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

It may help to indicate where you are in the world (or where you intend to setup your station) as to who can supply you as well.

[N_Willmott]

You can also charge from home.

I am from Cheltenham but looking to set up in south brum.

[Gilbertd]

As Brum appears to be home to the cheapest LPG suppliers in the country, you'd have a lot of competition. Although I doubt they are selling at a loss so the wholesale price must be good if you find the right supplier and buy enough.

[scottyf]

I am from Cheltenham but looking to set up in south brum.

If you are going to do that put one around Solihull.
There are so many wealthy 4x4 owners knocking about and If you would be competativly priced I would use it. South Birmingham is a bit pants for LPG.

[Brian_H]

If you want to get an idea of the existing stations check out http://www.filllpg.co.uk.

The charge from home argument is ok in some circumstances. Its not the solution for everyone (and not possible for a lot of people due to parking arrangements either).

[mondeoman]

You'll have you work cut out on the South side of Birmingham, an area which is already very well served with low cost Suppliers. If anything, the opposite side, North West offers better opportunities.

Regarding Tesla they are very nice, I wouldn't mind an S85P myself although you are in Range Rover money land. Take the mileage figures with a pinch of salt though. They say the 85kwh battery pack can achieve upto 300 miles range but that was calculated during tests using the new European driving test which replaces the old Urban / Extra Urban and features a lot of low speed driving, which suits electric vehicles. No figures have been published for constant 70mph travel but owners have suggested they are getting less than 100 miles to a charge.

[N_Willmott]

The site is already is fixed i'm afraid (friend of mine owns it).

Can anyone help with purchasing bulk/large tanks? Suppliers of lpg itself?

I've seen some large tanks for sale from Turkey, China and Germany just by a web search but would those work here? Are there any Uk suppliers?

[Brian_H]

Your best bet would be find your intended supplier first and ask them for recommendations/best way to proceed - calor for example will generally only fill their own supplied tanks, Some other suppliers are said to be less picky. Lister gases are based in that area, as are a few others (I think Premier might be as well, not sure).

[LPGC]

In answer to the question in the subject heading...

Direct injection engines are still the minority even in brand new vehicles, LPG systems to suit DI engines already exist, though granted the ECUs for these systems are vehicle specific and are not produced for all models of DI vehicle. Some LPG system manufacturers are developing different types of DI LPG conversion systems including types which use DI injectors to inject petrol or liquid LPG and switch between the two by the use of switching valves and associated plumbing. These systems might even turn out to be more generic in fitment and simpler than the systems we are used to - more concerned with plumbing than anything else, perhaps.

Hybrid vehicles can have the engine converted to LPG. I can't see the move to DI technology and/or hybrids being the death of LPG conversions; while-ever vehicles are still fitted with internal combustion engines I reckon we will be converting them to LPG.

Seems to me, electric vehicles are comparatively cheap to run when compared against other new vehicles, not necessarily cheap to run when deprecation etc is also considered. When electric / hybrid vehicles are a bit older and things like replacement batteries start becoming a factor, overall running costs might not seem so cheap.

Just had a quick look on the net, seems the cost of batteries in Teslas amounts to somewhere near half the cost of the car, i.e. around $40000... The battery in my laptop lasted 2 years using the laptop every day but cost only £30 to replace, I wonder how long the battery will last in the Tesla, and if that $40000 replacement cost is correct. The old saying 'New parts for old cars come at new car prices' might seem particularly poignant should you be the person to buy a second hand Tesla in, say, 6 years time and realised the battery was on it's way out, especially considering that sum would easily buy enough LPG to fuel a large and very powerful V8 engine'd vehicle for more than 6 years doing more than average mileage with change to spare! And if I were considering the Tesla, I'd also have to consider vehicles such as the Merc C55AMG, which I could buy right now, for less money including the cost of an LPG conversion (I've converted these to LPG - Merc would be less expensive and more desirable in my book).

Simon

[N_Willmott]

Simon,

I've been after a new big engined motor for a couple of years and all the latest stuff post 2008 (merc, audi, jag, bmw, etc) have moved to DI... and that's over 5 years old. Yes there are older models (2005/6 maybe even 7) that are still port injected but I fancy one of the newer models and there are others out there like me who would convert one of these to lpg if the option were available. I've been hearing about Di conversions for years but just seen a few specific examples. So what's the choice for people like me? Can installers like yourself convert me one of the newer E, CL, or S classes or even an A8, or 7 series? If not, when do you think you will be able to?

I didn't mention hybrids as I think that's relatively old hat now. All electric seems the future and on the latest model tesla they offer an 8 year, 125,000 mile warranty on the drive unit and battery on the base model and 8 year unlimited mile warranty on the high performance model - that's pretty good(!) and in 8 years things would have moved along significantly in battery tech and cost.

Initial costs seem high but can be offset against corporation tax if you are a business and then what other car can do 0-60 in under 3.2 seconds for this budget and they are also guaranteeing that owners can sell their car back to Tesla during the 37th month of their loan for a guaranteed resale amount that is specified at the time of delivery - 50% of the base price and 43% for all the options!

Any tips/help on setting up a lpg station?

Cheers.

Nige

[Gilbertd]

they are also guaranteeing that owners can sell their car back to Tesla during the 37th month of their loan for a guaranteed resale amount that is specified at the time of delivery - 50% of the base price and 43% for all the options!

As the base price of the bottom of the range Tesla is £49,900, that means it will cost you £25k for three years motoring. I think I'd rather buy a secondhand SL55AMG and throw it away after three years, it'd be no less expensive.

[N_Willmott]

they are also guaranteeing that owners can sell their car back to Tesla during the 37th month of their loan for a guaranteed resale amount that is specified at the time of delivery - 50% of the base price and 43% for all the options!

As the base price of the bottom of the range Tesla is £49,900, that means it will cost you £25k for three years motoring. I think I'd rather buy a secondhand SL55AMG and throw it away after three years, it'd be no less expensive.

There's no point comparing apples with oranges (new vs second hand/older car).

A new SL base spec will cost you £73k and how much will that be worth in 3 years and how much will it cost to run in fuel, and road tax? . Secondly, the tax advantages of buying the tesla (write down 100% of the car price against corp-tax, 0% BIK for first year, 5% next year, £5k gov incentive, no road tax, no congestion charge, free charging points) make it a no brainer especially for anyone buying a company car within that budget.

Keeping in mind they are launching their more compact 3 series equivalent near the end of the year plus the SUV, I think we are in for some interesting times. I might just skip DI lpg if none of the big engined later cars can by converted by the end of the year.

Cheers.

Nige.

[Gilbertd]

I agree it probably isn't a fair comparison but I'm afraid I cannot see the logic in buying anything and losing that amount in depreciation and for that reason alone, I would never even consider buying a brand new car. There may be benefits to the company car driver too but that is not something I am familiar with. I have been supplied with a company car for the last 30 years but all of them have been for company use only so no BIK or car tax to worry about.

My own thoughts on electric cars is that there needs to be a serious improvement in battery technology to make them viable for anything other than a city centre shopping or commuter car. Tesla make great play on their Supercharger installations, but look at how few of them there are. There may be parts of the UK that are not that well served by LPG stations but they are plentiful in comparison. When you start looking further afield then the idea of a quick trip over to Europe becomes a non-starter. It wouldn't be possible to do the 800 mile round trip in a day that I recently did to Germany for example.

I recently received a marketing email for the Nissan Leaf which, appears to be nothing more than an electric Micra. What on earth would possess anyone to even think about buying one? It's over twice the price of a Micra and the difference would buy a hell of a lot of petrol. You may be able to charge it for free at one of the small number of charging stations in city centres but if you charge it at home you are still paying for the electricity. My daughter is a Facilities Manager and is responsible for a small fleet of pool cars. When deciding on replacements, petrol, diesel, hybrid and electric cars were all considered but they chose Ford Focus eco-boost diesel as the cheapest overall when purchase price, running costs and depreciation were taken into account.

A city car at the same price as the petrol or diesel equivalent would make sense but while prices stay as they are, I honestly can't see electric cars as anything more than a passing fad that will disappear after not too long.

[N_Willmott]

I think this particular model will suit new buyers who were willing to spend that kind of money on an equivalent sort of vehicle and/or for whom the tax advantages make sense. In the usa, this model has outsold the equivalent top of the range models from BMW, Merc and Lexus and given how large their country is, I think we have an even better chance of success here.

Battery technology is improving and this model does between 200-300 miles on a single charge (one user reported a world record 425 miles by hyper-miling). Considering the size of our country and when you look at the FillLPG equivalent for electronic vehicles (http://www.charge.info), there are very few places you could get to without getting charged up on the way if required. Granted your usage scenario is more difficult but even then, the electronic charging network in Europe is growing (tesla is more popular there than here!) and how common is your usage scenario anyway? Most people who are going to do more than 300 miles will want to stop for a loo break and coffee and why not do this and charge your car for free (or at most a few quid) whilst you're at it.

The reason I have started looking at tesla is because I want to upgrade to one of the later range of exec cars but want to be able to run them cheaper than on petrol as I do many miles, but if they cannot be converted, more and more people will start looking at alternatives such as the tesla, especially if they introduce a more affordable model in the range with similar or better range and tax advantages; notwithstanding the 0-60 in 3 seconds!

Cheers.

Nige.

[mondeoman]

I can't see all electric vehicles being a sensible option for main stream motoring for many years yet. The "next generation" battery is about to hit the market and will offer a huge step forward but charging time will still be an issue. An 85kwh Tesla battery pack would still take more than 45 minutes to charge using a fast charger and just like lithium ion you cannot continuously charge disrupted carbon with "fast chargers" or you will cause premature damage. (Read the small print on the Tesla warranty!) Read the US forums, even Tesla's own site and most people are suggesting a maximum range of 240 or so miles, increase your cruising speed to 70 - 80 mph of a UK motorway and even that's going to plummet. A guy on the US Autotrader site last month was complaining on a trip from San Diego to LA up I5 his battery ran flat only just over half way, he had to get recovered to San Clemente and be recharged and thats not even 70 miles. By his own admission he'd been "pushing the metal" but that's perhaps the cars big fault. It WILL do 0-60 in 3 seconds, it WILL do 150+ mph and it MIGHT, under the right corcumstances do 300 miles on a charge, but it won't do all of them and it will always be the range that suffers. Note also that Tesla warn of reduced range in colder climates, and I'm talking about cars mainly in California, Nevada, Arizona etc! So a trip from Birmingham to London will need a 45 minute stop each way to recharge the batteries, and that is in several years time when DCC batteries have replaced the Li-on. Currently that charge time is 4 hours plus - each way remember.

I think your completely back to front on hybrids, plug in hybrids is where the motor industry is investing it's dollars right now, having all but given up with the Hydrogen Fuel Cell. A rechargeable Hybrid has major advantages over both traditional carbon fuelled and electric only vehicles, or should we say it has the benefits of both. Currently they share the same government benefits in terms of the £5k purchase rebate, low BIK's that a fully electric car does but also have the range of a standard petrol or diesel car, albeit at MPG's much closer to standard vehicles. Whilst your sat in the motorway service station my S Classe, Cayenne or Panamera, I8 or even Volvo V60 will be charging onwards. I can still commute using electric only, I'm still congestion charge free, but I wont have to keep stopping every 90 minutes or so to recharge.

I do like the Tesla, the Model S especially has something of the Maserati about it, though the X is more brick shitenhousen. The reason they, like most manufacturers can offer such long battery warranties is down to how the battery packs are built nowadays. Tesla are made up of hundreds or even thousands of individual LI-on cells which can be scanned and tested by a diagnostic device, rather like scanning computer memory for errors. If a cell, or bank of cells fails then it, and only it is replaced. It's not about replacing whole battery system anymore. It doesn't necessarily suggest that the manufacturer doesn't anticipate problems pre warranty period but the repair cost is not horrendous if they do fail. Of course, post warranty you should anticipate a constant stream of failure as cells die which probably doesn't worry the initial owner but pisses all over residuals, hence the high cost of initial ownership. It will be interesting to see when PIH's reach three years old how much residual value they carry. Most lease companies think a lot, we used to deal via HSBC business leasing and they are suggesting 70% residuals on some Mitsubishi Outlanders at three years old meaning that contract lease costs remain quite high.

The Tesla is a great toy, there is nothing else really like it. It's interesting that in the US the Tela is advertised with a 265 mile range and a MPGe or Gasolene equivalent MPG of eighty something, OK that would be higher in the UK, if we had such equivalents given our slightly cheaper electricity prices and higher petrol price. For the same money as the Tesla a Merc S Plug in Hybrid will offer 100 plus MPG and you don't even have to plug it in, you'll get a Merc badge meaning that when you come to sell it you'll be able to sell it to someone other than the manufacturer, europen build quality and safety standards, no range limits ever.

Crikey, the more I think about this the more the Tesla looks pointless, which is a shame really, as it is very pretty.

[N_Willmott]

Obviously the more charge, the more range but what is the average use of a vehicle in the UK in terms of daily miles? Maybe the school run, an average commute.. hazard a guess at way less than 100 miles per day which means for this sort of user, you wouldn't need to ever use a public charging point.

As for charge rates:

A single phase 3.7kw supply delivers 11 miles per hour.
A single phase 7.4kw supply delivers 22 miles per hour.
Public charging and chademo stations deliver 70 and 170 miles per hour.
The tesla superchargers (free) deliver 240 miles per hour.

Current tesla supercharger locations in Europe:


End of year tesla supercharger locations:


What rechargeable hybrid gives the combination of range (on electric only), super car baiting power, safety (highest euro ncap and american nhtsa raing) and can carry as many people (5+2) / luggage as the tesla? Didn't Clarkson even say the i8 whilst quite fast only gave around 30mpg a few weeks ago on Top Gear.

I think this is an amazing achievement for such a young company - a kick up the posterior for the established brands in the states - as i said, this has outsold the majority of the luxury models there and if they can deliver on their promise of battery swaps, more super charger stations, warranty and the new SUV and smaller model, it will be a great success IMHO, but not suitable for everyone just yet.

In the meantime - lpg PROs - can you tell me which V8 DI Merc, Audi, BMW or Jag you can convert and you may have my business!

Cheers.

Nige.

[LPGC]

I wrote this reply last night but my web browser crashed when I clicked submit. Apologies if this post is out of step with posts made since that time.

Nige,

Until the other types of LPG DI technology (that I mentioned above) have been developed and the generic systems that I mentioned introduced / become more mainstream, I am in the same position as every other installer in that before I could offer guaranteed results I would have to wait until off-the-shelf systems become available for the vehicles you mentioned.

I might stick my neck out and say that I would be reasonably confident of obtaining good results on V8 vehicles you've mentioned using 2 x 4 cylinder DI ECUs and associated components (where available for the same manufacturer 4 cylinder DI vehicles).. So, for example, say a customer has a recent V8 DI Audi and LPG systems are available to convert Audi's 4 cylinder engines that use very similar technology... At no cost (other than an agreement that if telling experimentation is successful the customer will go ahead with a complete paid for conversion) - I would be prepared to partly fit (no reducer need be fitted, no permanent changes except for 5 holes made in the inlet manifold and some cuts to wiring - all of which would be blanked off / reconnected and put back to just about standard should this not work out) a 4 cylinder DI port vapour injection system in attempt to convert one half of the engine to LPG. I would then confirm as far as possible that this was working correctly before going the whole hog and fitting the second 4 cylinder and components to complete the conversion..

My thinking is that manufacturers, particularly German manufacturers, don't often second guess their previous engineering decisions. This would be a first and a calculated risk, might be wasting my own time (though learning in the process) plus there would be the customer' risk of wasted time, making 5 unnecessary holes in the inlet manifold, wiring cuts/rejoins (holes would be blanked off and wiring put back to standard if worst came to worst).

The proof would be in the pudding but in the meantime, who is going to spend lots of money on a vehicle with the intention of converting it to LPG with the risk that might not be possible?

Simon

[LPGC]

Sorry to post again immediately after my last post but something else just occurred to me..

I say this because Willmott has said he is looking for a large exec car and I think to most of us one of the main points of owning a large exec car would be comfort..

I think I read that the Tesla uses 250Watt hours per KM of driving. This might seem inconsequential, after all we know that it will do 200+ miles on a single charge, so why worry about such things as energy consumption... Since the car is so energy efficient, I wonder what will happen to range when other electrical systems are turned on in the car, particularly the heater. Going on the above figure, a 1kilo-Watt heater would reduce range by 4KM for every hour of use. I think most people would underestimate the amount of heat we have blowing into our cars on cold days (implying we'd underestimate the power an electric heater would have to use to give the same heat), so to maintain comfortable cabin temps the heater might need to use a lot more than 1KW, which would only reduce range further.

In the past I have slept in my car (was necessary, I had good reason, nothing bad!), and used a 2kw electric heater plugged into an extension cable to keep warm, the heater did not even approach on the amount of heat output that the vehicle's heater could supply and the vehicle heater was probably a bit below par compared with most vehicle heaters, one of those you need to have set to max heat to keep anything like warm in cold weather. Aircon, if fitted, might have an even greater effect on range / if not fitted, is this really the luxury car that you'd prefer to buy?

Simon

[Gilbertd]

Three simple observations. Looking at the Tesla charging map, it strikes me that if you live in Edinburgh you can charge up and drive around. If you headed south though, you'd never make it as far as the next charging point so effectively you are restricted in where you can drive.

Secondly, are ALL desirable large luxury cars on the market today direct injection?

Finally, what's the point in something that can do 0-60 in 3 seconds if the progress isn't accompanied by the howl of a big V8 or V10 engine at full chat? If I had the money I'd buy an Aston V8 Vantage just for the noise it makes!