UKLPG comments

[LPGC]

How many members does UKLPG claim to have?

Bit pointless ; when numbers are given you just pronounce them lies.

Assuming you mean approved autogas installers (remember that UKLPG 'members' are the likes of Calor and Wincanton), count 'em up if you're bothered: secret hidden website here -
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/approved-inst ... installer/
There may be one or two motorhome specialists not listed.

It certainly was easier when they produced a straight list. It's nothing like 2000, just how many installers do you think there are?

We don't know if I would pronounce numbers issued by UKLPG lies because they don't list them. But I suppose I would because in that letter (that you posted a link to) from UKLPG to the government, UKLPG claimed that, what was it, 75% of all installers are UKLPG members and that most converted vehicles are on the UKLPG database! These 'facts' are quite clearly lies but obviously any numbers that UKLPG might issue in future would have to mathematically support the % claims that UKLPG listed in that letter.

I think we can forget the likes of Calor in the context of this thread and general context of this forum Rosko.. Calor don't do vehicle LPG conversions, we are only talking about vehicle conversions. UKLPG might play a useful role for Calor, whom are involved with installing bulk storage LPG tanks and hiring out caravan bottles but we're not concerned with that very different industry are we...

Do you still have the numbers and date of publication from when UKLPG did last give any numbers then? How could UKLPG know the numbers of installers that are not their members? How could they give % figures when they don't have total numbers? 2000 might seem a big numbers, maybe 2000 is an exaggeration, but how many Polish installers have set up in this country do you reckon?

You seem to have been away from the forum for a while mate... There are plenty of points you might want to comment on!

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[rossko]

Okay, ignore the information that is presented to you on a plate. I even made an estimate for you in case you were too idle to count exactly (I am!).

You're the one claiming Most this and Few that, I assumed you had at least made some estimates. Would you like me to make one for you? Again, pointless if it doesn't fit your view.

No, I don't want to comment again on repetitive points.

[LPGC]

Ok there do seem to be around 150 UKLPG member installers according to Drive LPG.

So how many none UKLPG installers do you reckon there are?

Here is a quote from that letter that you linked to, you know that letter that UKLPG sent to the government: 2.3. Member companies cover over 95% of the total LPG sales in the UK, around 80% of autogas equipment sales and the participants in the UKLPG Approved Autogas Installer Scheme account for around 70% of vehicle conversions.

So if UKLPG had 150 members in 2010 (when the letter seems to have been written), and UKLPG members do around the same number of conversions each that none member installers do (and I think this is a generous assumption) then according to UKLPGs letter to the government there were only 64 installers in the UK that were not UKLPG members? That must have been 63 not including me then?

What about the claim that 80% of Autogas equipment sales are through UKLPG registered suppliers... LPGA / UKLPG want suppliers to be members of LPGA / UKLPG, a long time ago a supplier told me that the then LPGA was pushing for a situation where a vehicle conversion could not get 'LPGA approved' status unless the whole supply chain from the supplier to the installer were LPGA approved. If the supplier was telling the truth then LPGA / UKLPG seem to have lost that battle, the last time I checked (a year or so ago) only BRC UK was a 'UKLPG registered supplier' and BRC UK certainly don't supply 80% of Autogas equipment. The last time I spoke to the boss at BRC they were considering pulling out of UKLPG anyway, because UKLPG would not 'allow' them to supply to none UKLPG members and BRC UK fully recognise that UKLPG installers DO NOT compose anything like 70% of all UK installers. BRC UK certainly lost business by not supplying none UKLPG member installers, from myself included... I simply bypaseed BRC UK and bought BRC components from BRC suppliers in other countries! I wonder what figures regarding suppliers and % of all LPG equipment sales UKLPG would 'advise' the government today?

I think we can safely assume that UKLPG lied to the government in that letter, don't you?

And so much for accuracy and in depth information from DriveLPG, too.... DriveLPG claim UKLPG are 'safety compliant, highly trained technicians, operate vehicle register, regularly inspected, consumer support'. Again, a little bit more info would be nice. Who says UKLPG staff know anything about safety? Who says they are highly trained? Trained in what? Granted they operate their own private vehicle register but so does a trainspotter! Regularly inspected - Is once a year regular? Consumer support - not it seems in the experience of people who have tried to use UKLPG consumer support to raise a complaint against a UKLPG member, I have only heard of one case of a customer finally getting satisfaction after going through UKLPG's complaints procedure. Of course the customer had to email UKLPG because UKLPG don't seem to have a phone line?

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Gilbertd]

LPGC wrote:
This time you said 'UKLPG set standards' Gilbert.
No I bloody didn't and never have

Unlike UKLPG who do at least set standards and vet those that want to become members, something you've been implying that they don't do.

Yes you bloody did Gilbert! :lol:

and as I explained in my previous reply, there's a difference between standards and Standards. We all have, and set, standards. We all have a standard of cleanliness and tidiness that we expect in our homes. If you came in one evening and found your kids had had a few mates around and the living room was full of empty beer cans and bits of pizza all over the floor, it, hopefully, wouldn't come up to your standards and you'd want it cleaning up pretty sharpish. In the same way, UKLPG have standards of what they expect to find at the premises of someone who is hoping to become a member.

What difference should workshop premises or equipment make other than adding conveniences for the installer? Isn't it the end result that matters? What kind of premises and/or tooling does your point imply an installer might need? Dell Boy working in that extremely well equipped garage from 'The Fast And The Furious' would probably not get as good results as an Army mechanic who changes a tank's gearbox in the desert

Here I actually agree with you but can see the thinking behind the UKLPG requirements. They wouldn't want their own image dragged down by giving membership to someone working on a bit of waste ground or the corner of a scrapyard. The immediate impression given to the potential customer isn't going to be, this bloke must know his stuff because he's approved by UKLPG, it would be, so if someone working in a tip like this is approved, does the approval mean anything?

Have a look at http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4DA8050C6DBB1.pdf (and to a lesser degree, this http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4DA803F3DFEFA.pdf) which is what they expect and it echos what a customer would expect from an Approved Installer. In my opinion, this is what you would expect from any approved tradesman irrespective of the trade they are in and the trade association that has approved that person. Working a lot in London I see on a daily basis BMW, Mercedes and Porsche 'Specialists' working out of workshops in bridge arches and grotty old tin huts. None of the major car manufacturers would 'Approve' them to work on their vehicles no matter how good at their job they may be, because they do not want that image for their brand.

Let's apply this to your trade Gilbert - I believe you are/were involved in checking radio equipment. Lets suppose there was no DTI department that oversaw / governed /licensed people in your trade to check/work on radio equipment.

There isn't. I work for Ofcom (responsibility moved from DTI around 2001) and we licence users of radio. My job, amongst other things, is to ensure that the users are operating their radio equipment within the terms of their licence. If they aren't, they have to get it altered until it does. There are absolutely no restrictions on who does that work. Anyone can legally work on, repair, install, sell or test radio equipment. If they do it at the users premises, any operation of that radio equipment that they do, is covered by the users licence. If they have their own premises and need to commission or test equipment prior to sale for example, it needs to be covered by a licence which they buy for £75 for 5 years.

There was an approved installer scheme set up a few years ago that was based on them achieving ISO 9000. In order to do that, the main requirements were around the documentation and traceability. You wrote a method statement on how you would do and document a job and as long as you followed that you were fine. Most of those that went for it got ISO 9000 on the supply of equipment, so the only thing that was checked was their record keeping. It wasn't popular as a lot of the better installers were one man bands and if there's only one of you how can someone else in the company double-check your work? It was however popular with the dodgier dealers. One notable one that I had in my patch got it on the supply of equipment because if he'd got it on the installation he'd have had to write that he would make a total balls up of everything he touched in order to meet his stated aim. The scheme was dropped after a couple of years as it was realised it penalised the good but small companies and proved nothing.

We don't know if all installers on this forum are the better ones, there are thousands of installers and most of them do not come on this forum at all, we don't know who keeps their head down or who doesn't. There are no parallels between better installers and UKLPG membership and you have previously said such yourself.

I think we do. The installers that post on here show that they know their stuff on a regular basis and they have the courage to stick their heads above the parapet. If a dodgy installer was to come on here and start posting he would, in effect, be advertising himself. All of the installers on here have their company or website on their signature. So a punter comes on here, reads a bit and knows as much as an LPG user needs to know. He gets a conversion done by someone that posts on here and when his car doesn't run right, he gets the standard, oh that's because it's on LPG, they're all like that, it's the best you can expect. He's already been on here and knows damn well that isn't the case. How much BS would he put up with from his installer before telling the world what he thinks?

[Gilbertd]

So if UKLPG had 150 members in 2010 (when the letter seems to have been written), and UKLPG members do around the same number of conversions each that none member installers do (and I think this is a generous assumption) then according to UKLPGs letter to the government there were only 64 installers in the UK that were not UKLPG members? :lol: That must have been 63 not including me then? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Blimey, like buses tonight. Just finish writing a reply to one of Simon's small novels and another one comes along.......

But here goes. So that would give around 260 installers in the country. How many are there in your area? How many in mine? Within a 30 mile radius of me I know of 3 (one being one of the recently set up Polish ones). How often do we get people on here asking for an installer in a certain area. Do we give them a list of 20 or 30 possibles to try all within spitting distance? No, there might be one or two and they might still be some way off. I would say that 260, if anything, was more than there really are.

There's going to be the odd garage here and there that do the odd conversion now and then but it isn't their main area of work. Would you even class them as installers? Because if you did then you'd also have to include the DIYer who did his own car and has then done a couple more for mates.

[rossko]

So how many none UKLPG installers do you reckon there are?

I don't know, how about you tell us? My guess would be about 150 of them as well.

... and UKLPG members do around the same number of conversions each that none member installers do (and I think this is a generous assumption)

I don't, I'd say it was skewed the other way. The one or two large-scale outfits that take on fleet and importer conversions are more likely to be UKLPG approved than not, and would account for a disproportionate number of the total conversions.
That would I reckon leave 50% or more of one band bands outside the scheme, doing I dunno around 30% of total jobs. It does seem like a reasonable figure to me.

Bite-size estimating for you - I'll bet you know how many installers operate in Yorkshire area, which includes some large cities? There seem to be about 10 approved. Would you say there are twenty, forty, or even the seventy-five or so needed to accord with your earlier 2,000 estimate?

You'd poo-poo my lies and exaggerations about Wiltshire, and it is indeed rural and unrepresentative. I think we number three, with two approved.

What about the claim that 80% of Autogas equipment sales are through UKLPG registered suppliers...

What about it, does your past discussion with a supplier alter that? You do realise 'Autogas equipment' includes the bunkers and pumps at filling stations. (Lot of capital value there I reckon, in total install costs) There is a wider world outside your workshop.
Having told your story, have you even bothered to find out if BRC are still in UKLPG ? (I know the answer to that one of course)

If you are concerned about conversion equipment suppliers, yes I'm sure in this get-it-cheap-from-Poland world, accredited distributors account for a small proportion, albeit in the higher value end of the market. Guessing, 15% by value, less than 10% by numbers?

[LPGC]

and as I explained in my previous reply, there's a difference between standards and Standards. We all have, and set, standards

I'm glad you cleared that one up mate. Perhaps since one of the big points in this discussion is about Standards, in the context of this discussion we need a better way of distinguishing between government enforced British Standards and privately set standards that have nothing to do with regulations / laws etc and might apply more to how tidy they think their house should be rather than anything relevant in this discussion. COP11 might be UKLPGs standard (lower case s) but the real Standard (upper case S) that all installers are obligated to work to is the British Standard (upper case S). I wish everyone was as clear on the difference between standards and Standards as you and I, that would help greatly in getting my points across, but I fear many people read standard and Standard as meaning the same.. In the context of this discussion only UKLPG and their members benefit from confusing the two!

LPGC wrote:
What difference should workshop premises or equipment make other than adding conveniences for the installer? Isn't it the end result that matters? What kind of premises and/or tooling does your point imply an installer might need?

Here I actually agree with you but can see the thinking behind the UKLPG requirements. They wouldn't want their own image dragged down by giving membership to someone working on a bit of waste ground or the corner of a scrapyard

Ahh, I'm glad you agree with me! It is a pity UKLPG seem to be more concerned with their own image than coming up with a viable safety scheme or promoting the general vehicle LPG conversion industry. There have been a few occasions where I have gone out locally to visit people with large American A class motorhomes for the purpose of repairing the motorhome's LPG system. In some cases such vehicles were originally converted by UKLPG installers at these customers premises. Thus these UKLPG member installers converted the vehicle at the very same customer address that I visited, to state the obvious they converted these motorhomes away from their UKLPG workshops and all of their workshop facilities. Must have been the only way some of them could do it, because some wouldn't have had the space for an A class motorhome at their premises. For the record, I don't work on a bit of waste ground or in the corner of a scrapyard, I can fit a few cars in the garage where I do conversions and have a large yard as opposed to a drive. I would say the difference in definition between a drive and a yard is that a drive is a narrow strip of road running to someones house where a yard is not a drive and is quite a bit bigger. I'm glad my yard is a very big one with space for many vehicles, fully tarmac'd too, it's great for converting those 34ft American A class motorhomes that most installers turn down conversions on because they don't have the space to work on them and/or don't like fabricating or cannot fabricate heavy duty brackets when installing tanks.

LPGC wrote:
We don't know if all installers on this forum are the better ones, there are thousands of installers and most of them do not come on this forum at all, we don't know who keeps their head down or who doesn't.

I think we do. The installers that post on here show that they know their stuff on a regular basis and they have the courage to stick their heads above the parapet. If a dodgy installer was to come on here and start posting he would, in effect, be advertising himself

OK so how many UKLPG installers did you, I, and rosko seem to agree there were, I believe we said around 150 UKLPG member installers? How many UKLPG installers are registered on this forum? How many UKLPG installers frequent this forum? Are all the UKLPG installers that do not frequent this forum no good then? By your logic over 90% of UKLPG installers are no good! Furthermore I must be one of the best installers because here I am often sticking my head above the parapet, giving forum users advice on a very wide range of LPG systems, linking to pics of my work and criticising the 'safety' scheme of the trade body that the few UKLPG installers whom frequent this forum have signed up to!

The hypothetical analogous situation I suggested between the LPG conversion industry and your own (radio inspection) industry may not have been a good one but you will recognise the gist of my point nevertheless and that same point could be applied to many industries / situations. My point seemingly wasn't the most relevant to your industry because the radio operator holds the license, not the person doing the work on the radio? OK so what type of system controls the radio licensing scheme and decides which frequencies radio users can use, a government setup or a private trade body that invents it's own rules? You said you work for Ofcom, Ofcom says it is an authority and I dare say it has actually got some authority - Authority given by the government. We have previously discussed my experiences with radio equipment (in my teens!) and you have warned me against doing so again unless I have the appropriate license. Remind me again what would happen if I decided to build a transmitter to broadcast on certain frequencies, perhaps ambulance frequencies? UKLPG is not an authority, I can install whatever LPG components I like, how I like, on any vehicle, UKLPG members can do the same and UKLPG is in no position to do anything about it (other than kick anyone that is a members out of their trade body). All installers, however, must install LPG systems that meet the BS standards or they are breaking the law. The point is that it is the law that is important, not any self imposed trade body restrictions. This must be even more true when trade body restrictions say only the same things as the law, when most people in the industry do not choose to join the trade body, when it is easy to side-step the trade body's method of compiling lists of vehicles that meet the required spec of install to include on that list vehicles which might not meet the required spec, particularly when many people confuse the trade body as representing the law and the trade body list as a definitive list of vehicles meeting the required safety spec. You have mentioned ISO9000, without reading up on ISO9000 from what you have described it seems similar to ISO9002 that I was once familiar with and which succeeded BS5750. The gist of this standard sounds similar to the standard you mentioned because they both involve writing work methods and demonstrating that you stick to them. People reading this may read between the lines... UKLPG don't seem to claim to hold a quality accreditation, I haven't seen any mention of one on their website anyway. I used to be a quality manager, so people might think I would be the type to sign up to a trade body that is supposedly all about safety in my industry etc and they would be correct. Yet I openly say I don't think UKLPG's scheme is fit for purpose and I have no intention of becoming a member.

So that would give around 260 installers in the country. How many are there in your area? How many in mine? Within a 30 mile radius of me I know of 3 (one being one of the recently set up Polish ones). How often do we get people on here asking for an installer in a certain area. Do we give them a list of 20 or 30 possibles to try all within spitting distance? No, there might be one or two and they might still be some way off. I would say that 260, if anything, was more than there really are.

There's going to be the odd garage here and there that do the odd conversion now and then but it isn't their main area of work. Would you even class them as installers? Because if you did then you'd also have to include the DIYer who did his own car and has then done a couple more for mates

Bite-size estimating for you - I'll bet you know how many installers operate in Yorkshire area, which includes some large cities? There seem to be about 10 approved. Would you say there are twenty, forty, or even the seventy-five or so needed to accord with your earlier 2,000 estimate?

You'd poo-poo my lies and exaggerations about Wiltshire, and it is indeed rural and unrepresentative. I think we number three, with two approved.

We don't know of a lot of installers because they don't come on this forum. None of us have a list of installers. UKLPG do not have a list of installers, so how can they 'advise' the government any figures regarding % of installers that are their members?
Some installers do not seem to advertise except for having billboards outside their premises. I am often only aware of a new installer starting up in my area when that installer sends customers to me to repair an LPG system that they are not familiar with and this happens quite often. I have not advertised LPG conversions for many years (I have just started to do so again only very recently), I only advertise LPG DIY kits. I am not a member of UKLPG. Granted UKLPG are aware of me - that is another story that I will tell below But UKLPG might not be aware of me if I had not been converting vehicles for many years and did not advertise DIY kits. I wonder why UKLPG don't seem to be on this forum btw?

LPGC wrote:
What about the claim that 80% of Autogas equipment sales are through UKLPG registered suppliers...

What about it, does your past discussion with a supplier alter that? You do realise 'Autogas equipment' includes the bunkers and pumps at filling stations. (Lot of capital value there I reckon, in total install costs) There is a wider world outside your workshop.
Having told your story, have you even bothered to find out if BRC are still in UKLPG ? (I know the answer to that one of course

UKLPGs claim regarding '80% of Autogas equipment sales' does not state if that figure relates solely to equipment that is fitted to vehicles or refers to equipment fitted to vehicles PLUS the filling pumps / bunkers etc. For our purpose here, Autogas equipment sales should refer only to the parts we fit on vehicles, because in our trade we do not install bunkers or filling pumps! You brought the UKLPG letter to our attention Rosko, why did you do that if you thought the content of the letter was not relevant to this discussion? The claim is worded '80% of Autogas equpment sales'. To me, if I sell a filter that is one sale, if I convert a vehicle that is a sale, if I sell a list of components and itemise each component separately I might consider each component a sale or I might consider all the items on the receipt as a sale depending on the context of the discussion at the time. It is very necessary to be accurate on context in such circumstances as these isn't it, to prevent the numbers from being terribly misleading... UKLPG don't make it clear in their claim whether they are talking about individual components, lists of components, or value of components. It seems you would agree with me that a tiny minority of suppliers that sell equipment that fits onto vehicles are UKLPG member suppliers, unless you know of any other LPG vehicle component suppliers besides BRC? If the UKLPG figures are based on value and do include filling pumps and bunkers for Autogas use then they are not meaningful in the context of this discussion. I would still find UKLPGs claim to be a surprisingly high number but of little concern since the claim would not be directly relevant to my industry.

LPGC wrote:
So how many none UKLPG installers do you reckon there are?

I don't know, how about you tell us? My guess would be about 150 of them as well.

I might have agreed 150 none members in 2010. Since then we have had an influx of installers from outside the UK. Some of these offer UKLPG registered installs, some of these are not UKLPG members, some of these know an installer that is a UKLPG member. Some UKLPG members accept money over the phone to register vehicles on the UKLPG register.

LPGC wrote:
... and UKLPG members do around the same number of conversions each that none member installers do (and I think this is a generous assumption)

I don't, I'd say it was skewed the other way. The one or two large-scale outfits that take on fleet and importer conversions are more likely to be UKLPG approved than not, and would account for a disproportionate number of the total conversions.
That would I reckon leave 50% or more of one band bands outside the scheme, doing I dunno around 30% of total jobs. It does seem like a reasonable figure to me.

And to skew it back again my way, many of the relatively new installers that are not UKLPG members offer conversions done in a day, employ quite a few installers and convert several vehicles every day. I wouldn't say they do a great job and the reason for that might be exactly due to the fact that they do stack em high, convert em cheap and rush to get the job done in a day. Those 'high volume fleet and importer converters' that you refer to, I have no knowledge of them but it reads as though they are UKLPG registered yet may be open to all the same flaws as the done in a day convertors? You won't be referring to the likes of Millbrook who do 'factory LPG conversions'. Factory LPG conversions are type approved, we agree on that. A point worth raising on factory conversion is whether factory conversion really are factory conversions at all. It could be claimed that a new vehicle straight off the production line at Vauxhall in the same ready for sale condition as other new vehicles, then taken to Millbrook, then having an LPG conversion fitted at Millbrook, could be considered as Millbrook doing an after-market LPG conversion like the rest of us with only the prefix to the word 'market' being arguable. Why shouldn't Millbrook technicians be UKLPG approved? If they are, why are factory converted vehicles not on UKLPG's database? Maybe Millbrook thought it not necessary, maybe UKLPG realised they were in no position to argue.

If you are concerned about conversion equipment suppliers, yes I'm sure in this get-it-cheap-from-Poland world, accredited distributors account for a small proportion, albeit in the higher value end of the market. Guessing, 15% by value, less than 10% by numbers?

You might shop at Harrods, I might shop at Asda, but a packet of BirdsEye fishfingers is a packet of BirdsEye fishfingers and a BRC system is a BRC system produced in the same factory to the same standards as the next BRC system. If you're used to cooking fishfingers, or installing BRC systems, you don't need technical support.

I would agree you have the value and volume numbers in the correct order of size, for arguments sake I will go with your figures. The letter UKLPG sent to government said 80% of Autogas equipment sales were through UKLPG member suppliers, some people might believe this means 80% of the parts that we use to convert vehicles to LPG, but Rosko and I don't believe the 80% figure applies to the vehicle LPG conversion industry, we don't believe the % figure regarding our industry is so high, we both think the number might be close to 10%. Whether Rosko and I would agree the numbers and wording might have been at least unclear or deliberately designed to be misleading is another matter.

UKLPG story: Many years ago I converted a taxi and did need to provide an LPGA cert (the local council wanted the taxi to have one rather than the insurer). I spoke to a then supplier who agreed to supply me with an LPGA cert for the taxi, I just had to email the supplier pics of the finished install. The supplier said they would do the same whenever I wanted, so I then advertised installs with LPGA certification, but I included a few words in the advert to describe how easy it was to get the LPGA cert. The LPGA contacted the supplier and myself and were not happy about the situation! The supplier wasn't happy that I had described how the LPGA cert was issued. In my discussion with the supplier I asked why they were so concerned, because LPGA needed suppliers to be members and there was little chance of a supplier getting kicked out. In my discussion with the LPGA I told them what I thought of their certification scheme. In another of my discussions with the supplier months later they told me they had thought about what I had said and decided not to bother renewing LPGA membership... Because after all, the LPGA was not going to stop vehicles fitted with that suppliers equipment from entering it's 'register', it was correct what I had said, the supplier was a major player and the LPGA needed to have vehicles fitted with the suppliers equipment going on it's 'register'. If the LPGA had barred vehicles fitted with this suppliers equipment from entering it's 'register' then the LPGA would be 'biting off it's nose to spite it's face' because the LPGA would then lose ground in the % of vehicles converted going on it's register and would lose revenue from installers that fitted this suppliers system because there would be no point in those installers continuing to be members of LPGA. The supplier continued to sell LPG equipment to installers and those installers who were LPGA members continued to register vehicles with LPGA as though nothing had happened. In effect it seems the LPGA changed it's own rules to stay in the game, bowing down to a major supplier. Other suppliers also stopped renewing LPGA memberships. We now have many more suppliers including the relatively new Polish suppliers. Many of these also do conversions. Some of the suppliers that do conversions are UKLPG registered as installers. The supplier part of their business means they know a lot of installers, the installer part of their business means they can offer UKLPG checks...

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

[classicswede]

We don't know of a lot of installers because they don't come on this forum. None of us have a list of installers. UKLPG do not have a list of installers, so how can they 'advise' the government any figures regarding % of installers that are their members?
Some installers do not seem to advertise except for having billboards outside their premises. I am often only aware of a new installer starting up in my area when that installer sends customers to me to repair an LPG system that they are not familiar with and this happens quite often. I have not advertised LPG conversions for many years (I have just started to do so again only very recently), I only advertise LPG DIY kits. I am not a member of UKLPG. Granted UKLPG are aware of me - that is another story that I will tell below But UKLPG might not be aware of me if I had not been converting vehicles for many years and did not advertise DIY kits. I wonder why UKLPG don't seem to be on this forum btw?
Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

The are 5 active installers on this forum and 2 are UKLPG members. That is far to small a cross section to produce a model from. From my experience I would say for every UKLPG member installer there is a full time non member installer and 2 part time non member installers. That ratio might well have changed over the last 6 years. Every installer talked the talk and were convinced they were the best however in real terms I would say only 10% were actually any good.

[rossko]

You brought the UKLPG letter to our attention Rosko, why did you do that if you thought the content of the letter was not relevant to this discussion?

Well duh, because it contains more than that one single figure that is relevant, nor are you the only one making enquiries here.

It is very necessary to be accurate on context in such circumstances as these isn't it,

Yes. You should look at the context the document you are wittering on about was prepared for, it wasn't just for you. You and I are a little cottage industry in a bigger picture.

"thousands of installers" indeed, can't even guess how many installers on own doorstep. Hysterical nonsense, never a single substantiaton, I've had enough of this twaddle

EDIT If anyone else would like to estimate a national figure, here's a method you could use. I think it is safe to assume that the distribution of UKLPG installers by area is a good approximation to all installers by area. That means it is within an individuals grasp to work a particular are and extrapolate to a national figure.
The super secret hidden listing of secret approved installers that no-one is supposed to know because it embarasses UKLPG is on this public website
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/approved-inst ... installer/
in a map form.

Pick an area you know, estimate how many installers you know. Use the map to see how many are UKLPG. Now you can get a ratio, say 2 to 1, and the number of UKLPG in that area. Then you can multiply up to get a national figure, with say 300 other installers to 150 UKLPG. We know 150 is about right because we can count them for ourselves, and don't need Simon's gracious approval for that figure. (Anyone like to make an exact count, very well done!)

Example, I could take my Wiltshire figure of one unapproved to two approved, and factor it up to 75 and 150 respectively. That I'm sure is cobblers because its far too small a sample.

Scotland would make a good one I suspect, with 12 approved installers a large enough sample for an estimate, and a realistic prospect of some interested, independant party having a feel for the total.

If you can make 2,000 Simon will give you a kiss, I promise. Every other installer will retire, there isn't work for 2,000 of us.

[classicswede]

I think I gave you the rough formula to work it out with above

150 UKLPG installers
150 non UKLPG installers doing conversions full time
300 parts time installers

That gives a total of 600 installers

Around 10 of the UKLPG installers do not do new installations so that drops the real number down to 140

I don't think the 600 will be far off

[Tubbs]

So if we go on dai's figures
20% of installers in the uk are approved by UKLPGA.
Don't really know what simon is getting his knickers in a twist over.
Hijacking yet another thread. Making it 50 pages long and raking over the same old same old.
It's not even expensive to join nowadays. £570. If you had to pay this mythical 'dodgy member' £50 a time to register your conversions you would still recoup the cost in 11 conversions.
Chatting to the plumber next door. He's gas safe / off tec / hetas registered. Got 5 vans out all day, every day. Does very little advertising other than local parish council magazines.
90% of his work comes from being on the Worcester boiler site as an approved installer.

[LPGC]

Just a thought ..... I wonder if the OP still needs any advise on a gas conversion ????

He said he'd decided to buy a kit from TinleyTech mate.

Rosko, I said thousands of installers was an exaggeration a page or so back. I said I would go with some of your figures a while ago too. Your figures also show UKLPG that UKLPG installers are in the minority, UKLPG registered installs are in the minority, UKLPG registered suppliers are in the minority. I made many points in my last post but instead of answering those points you have only mentioned the numbers point....

Dai is probably in the best position here to judge numbers of installers. Dai reckons there are 150 UKLPG members of which only 140 do installs. He hasn't said if these 140 UKLPG installers do installs full time or not, I know 2 UKLPG 'installers' near me do installs but not full time. Dai said there are 150 none UKLPG installers that do installs full time, plus 300 part time installers. Tubbs has calculated that UKLPG members represent only 20% of all installers.

I could estimate the number of installers in my area but a 30 mile radius from me includes the whole of Doncaster, Wakefiield, Barnsley, Pontefract, Castleford, Goole, parts of Leeds, parts of Sheffield, so an estimate would be a very rough estimate indeed. 'Leeds LPG's seem to open and close regularly, completely different firms. I believe one Leeds LPG that was a UKLPG member shut down after customers repeatedly took vehicles back with problems, but UKLPG wasn't involved in shutting them down because the problems were driveability problems not safety problems. Instead of quoting an estimate I told you how it is often the case that I first know about a new installer when a customer mentions them. I don't agree that Scotland figures would be indicative of whole UK figures, there do seem to be far less installers in general in Scotland, I have lots of Scottish customers.

Yes the 'paper' has more than one figure. What figures on the paper are relevant to us as LPG installers though?
Thanks Rosko for helping to clear up the point that the '80% of all LPG components' figure on the paper becomes only 10% if we're talking about the components we install on vehicles.
Thanks Dai and Tubbs. UKLPG's figures on the paper claim 70% of all LPG converted vehicles are on UKLPG's register but it seems only 20% of installers are UKLPG members.

(Simon is) Hijacking yet another thread. Making it 50 pages long and raking over the same old same old.
It's not even expensive to join nowadays. £570. If you had to pay this mythical 'dodgy member' £50 a time to register your conversions you would still recoup the cost in 11 conversions.
Chatting to the plumber next door. He's gas safe / off tec / hetas registered. Got 5 vans out all day, every day. Does very little advertising other than local parish council magazines.
90% of his work comes from being on the Worcester boiler site as an approved installer.

If you wanted to discuss hijacking threads mate there was the opportunity when I previously replied on the subject of thread hijacking. SnoozyBMW made a false claim regarding UKPLG and I corrected him. SnoozyBMW was not accused of hijacking a thread yet you accuse me? I wouldn't have brought up the subject if it were not for SnoozyBMW giving false advice. I am in the right to correct incorrect advice am I not?
I do not argue that there are financial benefits to joining UKLPG. I agree that UKLPG members do indeed seem to get more customers because they are UKLPG members. This is missing the point.

The point is that UKLPG does very little for safety in the vehicle LPG conversion industry, mis-advises people and makes false claims that are repeated and even exaggerated by it's members. You have called the UKLPG member who accepts money over the phone to register installs a 'dodgy member'. What do you call any trade-person who incorrectly advises a potential customer to make a sale?

Lots of points in my previous posts that nobody has yet disputed!
Rosko, Gilbert, Tubbs, why don't you see if you agree or disagree with me, without this time claiming disinterest if you can't find fault. Why not answer all points and humour me!

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Gilbertd]

He said he'd decided to buy a kit from TinleyTech mate.

and now he's decided to take the car to Tubbs and have it converted, a fact you would have known if you spent more time reading what others wrote instead of spending all your time writing.

I could estimate the number of installers in my area but a 30 mile radius from me includes the whole of Doncaster, Wakefiield, Barnsley, Pontefract, Castleford, Goole, parts of Leeds, parts of Sheffield, so an estimate would be a very rough estimate indeed.

So do it then and from that you might get a rough idea of the total number rather than plucking figures out of the air. Who cares anyway as long as you all have enough work to go around?

The point is that UKLPG does very little for safety in the vehicle LPG conversion industry, mis-advises people and makes false claims that are repeated and even exaggerated by it's members. You have called the UKLPG member who accepts money over the phone to register installs a 'dodgy member'. What do you call any trade-person who incorrectly advises a potential customer to make a sale?

Yawn, yawn yawn...... When are you going to realise that you seem to be the only person that cares?

Sorry, just taken one of John's pills.......

[indyjukebox]

So yes you are against any regulation within the automotive LPG industry.

Like i said, personally i feel the industry would be better without unregistered installs. Obviously that annoys you but that doesn't surprise me. It annoys me that there are people conducting installs in an unregistered manner. We are on opposing sides of the discussion but i don't need to drop down to your level of name calling.

And i never mentioned anything whatsoever about BMW in any of the discussions so please keep your prejudices to yourself.

Again you get it wrong. I am not against regulation. I just dont see the point in pretend regulation with no real teeth and with no tangible benefit to me a consumer. I am not blinded by a certificate and rather choose my installer based on mechanical merit. You on the other hand seem to consider the certificate to be a guarantee of good quality work. I am afraid if you do your research you will find that UKLPG registration (or regulation as you call it) has no guarantee of a good quality install.

For eg: my car needs the manifold to be taken off for a good install. I checked with 3 reputable UKLPG approved installers who would not remove the manifold and wanted to drill in situ. I then spoke to Tubbs from the forum who displayed a much better understanding of my engine and agreed the need to remove the manifold. Similarly 2 of the three UKLPG installers wanted to drill a hole in my body panel. Tubbs was able to install a proper filler with a retention bracket, which fulfils COP11, without making a bloody big hole in my car's body panel. To me that is more important than a spineless piece of paper.

RE: the BMW remark, it originated from another post displaying a terrible prejudice towards anything that was not BMW/German. Infact if I am not mistaken, you were so rude and nasty that you made another member leave the forum. I really dont see the need for that at all.

[LPGC]

LPGC wrote:
He said he'd decided to buy a kit from TinleyTech mate.
and now he's decided to take the car to Tubbs and have it converted, a fact you would have known if you spent more time reading what others wrote instead of spending all your time writing.

He is in the vicinity of Tubbs. Seemed to the rest of us he had decided to buy a kit from TinleyTech. Whether or not there were PMs between the OP and Tubbs we don't know. Or maybe we do.

LPGC wrote:
I could estimate the number of installers in my area but a 30 mile radius from me includes the whole of Doncaster, Wakefiield, Barnsley, Pontefract, Castleford, Goole, parts of Leeds, parts of Sheffield, so an estimate would be a very rough estimate indeed.
So do it then and from that you might get a rough idea of the total number rather than plucking figures out of the air. Who cares anyway as long as you all have enough work to go around?

I have explained why I haven't bothered. My area would be a particularly difficult area to come up with figures for. There would be no need for me to guess now anyway, we have reached figures we all seem to agree on, including Rosko, and the figures show UKLPG installers are in the minority and UKLPG registered installs are in the minority.

Lots of points in my previous posts that nobody has yet disputed!
Rosko, Gilbert, Tubbs, why don't you see if you agree or disagree with me, without this time claiming disinterest if you can't find fault. Why not answer all points and humour me!

Yawn, yawn yawn...... When are you going to realise that you seem to be the only person that cares?

You know mate, the realisation that I may be the only person who cares that installers join UKLPG solely to increase turnover, don't seem to care that they mis-advise customers, don't seem to care that UKLPGs scheme doesn't really do anything, don't seem to care that there is no really viable safety scheme is setting in... Yes this is an uphill battle. It is very apparent to me that most installers, maybe most people in general, are just like sheep and would rather sell out on their own beliefs than stand up for what they think is right. Personally I like schemes I join up to and/or pay into to actually make sense, I would resent supporting or paying into a scheme that I thought didn't make sense, I wouldn't feel like I had earned an honest wage if I went about mis-advising people, my self respect would suffer I felt I was being two faced with any intent including the intent of making money.

To your 'only person that cares' comment I say why should you care, vehicle LPG conversions are not your industry and you're hardly in the market for an LPG conversion. Even if you were, I bet you would rather have your vehicle converted by someone who you knew would do a good job regardless of whether that person was or wasn't a UKLPG member than some random UKLPG member installer? You seem to be friendly with Tubbs, would you rather have Tubbs convert your vehicle or some UKLPG installer that you don't know? Tubbs has only been a UKLPG member since Xmas, he claims his only reasons for joining were because the joining fee is low and it is convenient for a minority of customers to register their vehicles on UKLPG's database. Nothing to do with safety, then, whem safety is supposedly the biggest point of UKLPG. So would your decision have been different before Xmas? You know and understand the facts mate, more customers might care about the facts if they were actually given them instead of only hearing UKLPG propaganda, the government might care if they were aware of the real situation, none UKLPG member installers might rather like the facts to become common knowledge. Of course the fact that this isn't your industry shouldn't and doesn't prevent you from coming on this forum for an intelligent discussion. I respect your views and enjoy your presence on the forum, I know you're a clever bloke and enjoy reading your generally unbiased and informed comments on all subjects , not just vehicle LPG related subjects, and you're similar to me in that on some thread you will write long posts on none LPG related subjects. But on odd occasions I'm afraid to say I believe your usual unbias seems to swing more towards bias, and it does seem apparent that your best mates on this forum are Rosko and Tubbs. When we recently discussed UKLPG on another thread you seemed to start out along the same lines as me, we said similar things, but then you seemed to do an about turn when UKLPG members didn't appreciate that kind of thing being said. You came a long way in the discussion on this topic on this thread and have written many long posts, is it a coincidence that just when we reach a point where people agree on numbers, those numbers back up my argument and my arguments seem very robust that you claim to be bored of the discussion and won't answer points more fully even though I've asked you to humour me? I even came up with an analogy that referred to your line of work, in your reply you told me how it wasn't really relevant to your line of work and listed the reasons why, so I revised the analogy to see if you would agree with my points if they were relevant to your industry and you still haven't answered. As said above, you usually seem very willing to write about your work, experiences, explore hypothetical situations and discuss off LPG subjects. Why not answer my arguments in the intelligent, fair and unbiased way that I have become accustomed to from yourself? Comments like 'Yawn yawn yawn' don't seem to suit you Richard mate, bah, I expected more from you!

I would agree there are a few people who should keep taking the tablets!

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

[LPGC]

I'm struggling after a few cans now, I don't drink often but was in the mood tonight, except I couldn't have one until after 10pm when I'd picked the daughter up from work. Good stuff Tubbs? Any adverse effects if taken with beer?

Let's remind people that we're only arguing about UKLPG. No hard feelings eh?

Simon xxx

[SnoozyBMW]

So yes you are against any regulation within the automotive LPG industry.

Like i said, personally i feel the industry would be better without unregistered installs. Obviously that annoys you but that doesn't surprise me. It annoys me that there are people conducting installs in an unregistered manner. We are on opposing sides of the discussion but i don't need to drop down to your level of name calling.

And i never mentioned anything whatsoever about BMW in any of the discussions so please keep your prejudices to yourself.

Again you get it wrong. I am not against regulation. I just dont see the point in pretend regulation with no real teeth and with no tangible benefit to me a consumer. I am not blinded by a certificate and rather choose my installer based on mechanical merit. You on the other hand seem to consider the certificate to be a guarantee of good quality work. I am afraid if you do your research you will find that UKLPG registration (or regulation as you call it) has no guarantee of a good quality install.

For eg: my car needs the manifold to be taken off for a good install. I checked with 3 reputable UKLPG approved installers who would not remove the manifold and wanted to drill in situ. I then spoke to Tubbs from the forum who displayed a much better understanding of my engine and agreed the need to remove the manifold. Similarly 2 of the three UKLPG installers wanted to drill a hole in my body panel. Tubbs was able to install a proper filler with a retention bracket, which fulfils COP11, without making a bloody big hole in my car's body panel. To me that is more important than a spineless piece of paper.

RE: the BMW remark, it originated from another post displaying a terrible prejudice towards anything that was not BMW/German. Infact if I am not mistaken, you were so rude and nasty that you made another member leave the forum. I really dont see the need for that at all.

Hmm yes i know of whom you speak, mondeoman who used a cheapskate done in a day unregistered converter, had problems and then came on here to access the knowledge of mainly uklpg certified installers. And when it was pointed out to him that those customers that pay out and support uklpg installers (keeping them in business) were effectively cross subsidising people such as him, he threw all the toys out the pram. Maybe hit a raw nerve. When the truth hurts i don't know whats "rude or nasty" about that. I know mondeoman argued with the insurers about uklpg and you appeared to have sympathy with him on that front.

Like i said, these type of people ( including yourself) i wish weren't involved with lpg as they move it down a level.

More regulation is needed, not less.

[Gilbertd]

To your 'only person that cares' comment I say why should you care, vehicle LPG conversions are not your industry and you're hardly in the market for an LPG conversion. Even if you were, I bet you would rather have your vehicle converted by someone who you knew would do a good job regardless of whether that person was or wasn't a UKLPG member than some random UKLPG member installer? You seem to be friendly with Tubbs, would you rather have Tubbs convert your vehicle or some UKLPG installer that you don't know? ....... I believe your usual unbias seems to swing more towards bias, and it does seem apparent that your best mates on this forum are Rosko and Tubbs. When we recently discussed UKLPG on another thread you seemed to start out along the same lines as me, we said similar things, but then you seemed to do an about turn when UKLPG members didn't appreciate that kind of thing being said. You came a long way in the discussion on this topic on this thread and have written many long posts, is it a coincidence that just when we reach a point where people agree on numbers, those numbers back up my argument and my arguments seem very robust that you claim to be bored of the discussion and won't answer points more fully even though I've asked you to humour me?....... Comments like 'Yawn yawn yawn' don't seem to suit you Richard mate, bah, I expected more from you! :lol:

Fair points Simon. I've never met Rossko but he did give me some extremely useful advice when I got my first LPG car and wasn't even sure how it worked (or more to the point, why it didn't). Since then I have learnt how it works, what each bit does, why it does it and how to mend it when it doesn't. It is immediately apparent to anyone reading his posts that he knows his stuff and is a 'proper' engineer and not just a parts fitter. I've met Tubbs and not only does he also fall into the same category, but is a thoroughly nice bloke. The sort of person you'd willingly go for a pint or three with (I did offer but as it was in the middle of the day and he still had a fair journey in front of him it wasn't such a good idea).

As you say, if, for whatever reason, I was going to get a conversion done, then I would choose someone that I trusted to do the job right. I would be far more likely to do it myself though. I'm a qualified engineer with the option to put letters after my name if I choose, I'm also a qualified H&S professional (with yet more letters after my name if I want to really clog up a page). On the LSE, my everyday P38 and the one I've recently bought with an eGas system on it, I've taken the system off and fitted it in a better manner. On both the single point cars, I've moved the vap to a more sensible place, I've replaced and altered the coolant pipes, I've virtually rewired both because neither install came up to my engineering standards (there's that word again.....). The eGas system was installed by the eGas importer and came with a LPGA certificate and an entry on the Register but again I've replumbed the vap, made proper brackets for the injectors, mounted them so they are pointing downwards rather than laying flat, added a fused relay in the switching output so a duff solenoid doesn't burn out the ECU, replaced and altered the pipe runs so it looks neater and less like a few extra bits bunged in under the bonnet and trampled on until the bonnet will shut. So no, it isn't my business and if needed I would install a system myself. However, I would probably take it to one or the other of those mentioned to be checked over. Not from a safety point of view because I feel pretty confident that I can recognise a safe install from one that isn't, more from a setting up point of view because, while being fully aware of the theory it isn't something I've got much experience with.

As you the Yawn, yawn, yawn comment. I'm currently in Glasgow working in the production area at the Radio 1 Big Weekend concert so after spending a day surrounded by 80,000 screaming teenagers and a few beers on the way back to the hotel, that was how I felt at the time. However what I will say is that you have made your point long ago, most on here, both UKLPG members and not, seem to agree that the system isn't perfect and can leave itself open to abuse. But it is currently all there is. Not matter how much you bang on about it, nobody in any position to change things is going to read your thoughts, so why bother keep going on about it? As I said many posts and threads ago, if you want to change the system you have to be within the system. An outsider who has an axe to grind with UKLPG is not going to be listened to, whereas someone from within stands a far better chance of being taken seriously. If you can't beat them (which you can't on your own), join them and set about trying to get them to tighten things up by producing specifics and not just hearsay and conjecture.

[LPGC]

Hmm yes i know of whom you speak, mondeoman who used a cheapskate done in a day unregistered converter, had problems and then came on here to access the knowledge of mainly uklpg certified installers

There are only, what was it, 5 installers on this forum, only 2 of them are UKLPG installers. You are incorrect to say that there are mainly UKLPG members installers on this forum, the opposite is true! None of the 5 installers on this forum do installs in a day. None would advise a customer to have a conversion done in a day by another installer. The none UKLPG members on this forum are just as knowledgeable and give just as much tech support as UKLPG member installers. Actually, I would be so bold as to claim that the none UKLPG member installers on this forum are more knowledgeable on a wider range of LPG systems than the UKLPG members.

According to Rosko there are UKLPG installers who also do installs quickly.

We all have the same opinion on Mondeoman.

Like i said, these type of people ( including yourself) i wish weren't involved with lpg as they move it down a level.

More regulation is needed, not less.

I agree wholeheartedly that more regulation is needed!! Currently there is no regulation!!! Several people, including myself, on this very thread have told you repeatedly that UKLPG is not a regulator of the vehicle LPG conversion industry yet you still imply that there are regulations and that UKLPG are the regulators.

Making false claims / giving false impressions regarding what is required, what isn't required and what UKPLG does may be part of the reason why we don't have any regulation! If you are/were an installer you are/would be telling customers that they need to have their vehicle converted by a UKLPG member wouldn't you? That person would then be more likely to have their conversion fitted by you so both you and UKLPG would have profited by making that claim. Such claims are so widely made that some installers have begun to believe their own misinformation, the general public assumes the misinformation is the truth, the government do nothing to implement a functioning safety scheme or actual regulation.
Membership of UKLPG is voluntary, installers can choose to be members or choose not to be members. It is not compulsory for LPG converted vehicles to be registered on UKLPGs database. Only a small minority of insurers take any notice of UKLPGs database.

So what is to prevent anyone from buying parts, fitting them themselves or having a very poor quality install done by an incompetent installer, ending up with an unsafe install? Who is going to ensure that doesn't happen when there is no compulsory safety scheme? If you support UKLPG's voluntary scheme it is you that is supporting no regulation!!!

You may argue that if UKLPG membership was compulsory for anyone converting a vehicle to LPG, or that if UKLPG database registration was compulsory for every LPG converted vehicle, that UKLPGs scheme would ensure that all LPG conversions on vehicles would be safe. I would argue that if this were the case there would still be little difference to safety - There would still be people fitting there own LPG conversions. There would still be UKLPG members who are happy to accept money over the phone to register vehicles on UKLPGs database. We would still have a situation where UKLPG members 'check' their own and others work totally unsupervised by anyone from the trade body and totally unsupervised by anyone with relevant qualifications other than the trade body's say so.

What is needed is some regulation / law to render an LPG converted vehicle unusable, at least for fear of being caught using it because it would be breaking the law, unless it has been checked by a competent person. Even if we assume that UKLPG members are competent the UKLPG scheme would still not be viable for this purpose because we would still have UKLPG members breaking the rules to make a bit more profit by accepting payment over the phone for registering vehicles on the database. To have the same clout as Vosa, for members of UKLPG to be as concerned about breaking UKLPG rules as, say, an MOT tester would be about breaking Vosa riules, UKLPG would need to be elevated to the same status as Vosa. Vosa is a government endorsed department with the full weight of law behind it, UKLPG is never going to be elevated to the same status as Vosa and people are never going to be worried about breaking UKLPG rules.

As it stands at the moment, anyone could email UKLPG (they couldn't phone them UKLPG don't have a phone line), tell them a time and place where they will be converting a vehicle to LPG using sellotape on pipe joints and generally doing a very unsafe install. UKLPG could come around and watch the dangerous install being fitted, they could watch the owner get a receipt from an installer who claims he fitted the system for his mate, watch him get the V5 changed to say LPG as a fuel type, watch the owner fill it up with LPG and drive onto a public road and could not do anything about it. UKLPG have no legal teeth of their own whatsoever.

I can think of only one way to ensure that all newly LPG converted vehicles have been checked and found to be safe by someone with relevant qualifications, by someone who is checked themselves for competence, by someone who is licensed by the government to do such checks, by someone who would lose this license if their competence, judgement or honesty were found to be in question. I have already suggested a scheme that would cover all points and concerns. I have listed how this scheme would work on this thread and in similar discussions on other threads. Nobody has yet commented on my suggestion on this thread. Why don't you see if you think my suggestion would make more sense than the current situation?

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

[LPGC]

Thanks, Gilbert
I would be very interested in learning all about the production technology involved in the Radio1 show - sincerely. And I understand that people write shorter posts when short on time etc. I wasn't so sure that your short post was as unbiased as your usual posts.

I would be surprised if you were the type to judge character simply by a persons writing style on a forum, especially when that writing is arguing points in a debate. I do have a strong opinion on UKLPG but in most other respects I am not overly opinionated and have wide interests, I would say that I usually form a bad first impression of people that seem to be overly opinionated.

I know that you are more than capable of doing an install yourself and I am sure that you could do just as safe an install as anyone here.

No matter how much you bang on about it, nobody in any position to change things is going to read your thoughts, so why bother keep going on about it? As I said many posts and threads ago, if you want to change the system you have to be within the system. An outsider who has an axe to grind with UKLPG is not going to be listened to, whereas someone from within stands a far better chance of being taken seriously. If you can't beat them (which you can't on your own), join them and set about trying to get them to tighten things up by producing specifics and not just hearsay and conjecture.

I know nobody in a position to change things is going to read my thoughts (unless they're psychic ) just yet. I know that if I personally approached anyone in such a position they probably wouldn't listen to my ideas. But if there was a consensus in the industry they might listen to the consensus if the consensus was voiced. I don't see why I would need to join UKLPG in order to make a change to a workable / viable system. I very much doubt that if I joined UKLPG and suggested that their scheme doesn't work, couldn't be made to work and that we should therefore implement the MOT scheme that I suggested that anyone within UKLPG would entertain the idea, the idea would, after all, mean UKLPG would not get any money from anyone in the vehicle LPG conversion industry. I am not sure that my idea would need the support of UKLPG or their members since they are in the minority. Regards hearsay and conjecture, I have offered to prove that points I have raised are not just hearsay and conjecture but are in fact true and I have shown how points raised by UKLPG members amount to no more than hearsay and conjecture.

We have reached a similar position to this in discussion before, and when this position is reached the final word from most people in the discussion has been to say 'since you can't do anything about it you might as well forget it'. Next statement isn't pointed at you personally mate, but to me this seems like people have ran out of reasons to dispute my points but cannot bring themselves to acknowledging my points as correct, viable, workable, superior to the current system.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk