Leonardo / Galileo LR Install - it's about time.

[CNG]

I know some of you are fans of the Leo.

My single-point Land rover. Best take up the baton, it's been a while and I really should get this done.
Last thread had me do a single-point 4 -pot Series Land rover, rather than any precious classic, this used as a daily. Open-loop via a BLOS with an SU carb for rare-use petrol, and it works great. I've one of those Innovate wideband gauges and it runs near enough stoich. Must have done 25-30,000+ miles since.


viewtopic.php?t=15479

I've been collecting AEB Leonardo bits whenever I saw them cheap on the bay of E. Now TT has some Galileo sets at 'sweets to kids prices' thus I went for one of those plus a spare.

I've been reading the last Leonardo / Galileo thread - I've picked-up a lot.

Only in my case I've nothing to emulate, only lack of that stuff brings other Qs. Namely what's on my shopping-list. Thus I ask:

1) TPS - i'm correct in thinking a simple switch to earth at idle is fine?
2) I've already got a bung installed. On a lambda equipped car the Leonardo / Galileo would 'tee' into the output. do I just get any old 4-wire O2 and put 12V across the heater pair, with the output line to the Leonardo / Galileo?
3) On a 4-wire O2, why not three wires, two go to earth anyway... don't they? What am I missing?
4) Leonardo vs Galileo? Unlike the other thread, this is a fresh install. I'm guessing I run with the Galileo, and leave the Leo in the shed?
5) A spurious query perhaps - has anyone ever used the AEB215 Leonardo Galileo TESTER? It's a dedicated hand-held AEB product for those not using a laptop.
https://www.aeb.it/en/product/aeb215-ac ... k-systems/

[LPGC]

1. The classic AEB175's (such as Leonardo's, Pegaso's, Millenium's, etc) don't need to connect to TPS at all but if/where possible it can be an advantage to connect to an idle switch and a bigger advantage to connect to a 'proper' TPS. Not totally sure if the later closed loop mixer system ECU's available from TT (which may be slightly different to the classic AEB175's) allow the option of not connecting to TPS but I expect they do allow that option. The advantage to connecting to TPS is that when the driver changes accelerator position the stepper motor quickly jumps back to the 'default position' (the learned average position or user programmed position), plus pre-programmed positions can be set for completely off-throttle (idle switch or TPS voltage corresponding to completely off throttle) or full throttle position can be set with a different programmed stepper position to allow for e.g. full throttle mixture enrichment. But even without a TPS the 175's will consider RPM <1000 as idle condition or RPM >4000 as requiring full throttle enrichment.

2. Yes

3. The 4th wire is a separate earth for the signal, it can be wired to the same earth point as the ECU to prevent biased voltage readings from the sensor. There is potential (slight pub) for voltage bias because for example the alternator is earthed to the engine, the engine earth using wiring to the vehicle chassis/body, if the earth strap between engine and body has even slight electrical resistance then when the alternator is charging at a high rate of amps the engine will be at slightly higher voltage than the chassis/body. Given that lambda sensor signals are low voltage it would only take (say) a 0.1v potential difference between engine block and body/chassis to throw off lambda sensor mixture readings by quite a bit.

4. Leonardo's being the classic AEB175, and maybe the Galileo being the later model I referred to in (1) ? I'd fit the latest type if the wiring is any different since (like you've said) you can still buy them, unless (also like I mentioned in 1) there's a difference in available TPS settings.

5. You've answered my 'maybe later model' question in (4). I doubt anyone reading this has used the handheld tester... why buy one when you could just use a laptop? Even in the days of the 175 there were other make closed loop mixer system ECUs that could be set up entirely by reading LED indicators and a few dip switches on the unit itself without need for a tester or a laptop but still the 175's were the go-to units for most installers.

[Gilbertd]

1, Adding a TPS, or a closed throttle switch, allows you to set a lower actuator opening at closed throttle on the overun so saving an marginal amount of fuel but giving better engine braking. You can also set a fixed opening for at full throttle but I've never bothered to enable that feature. So I'd fit one purely for the closed throttle feature.

2, Yes, use a 4 wire and take both grounds back to the ECU (or negative battery post) rather than just grounding them. I've found that the cheapo Chinese universal sensors last a matter of months so I fitted a good quality NTK one (my P38 runs 5-0V Titania sensors so I have a single 0-1V Zirconia in one downpipe purely for the Leo to use). I found one intended for use on a Ford Focus was about the cheapest in the NTK range and the one in there has been there for about 3 years now.

3, What Simon said.....

4, The wiring loom is different n the Galileo in as much as it only has a single multiway plug on the unit instead of the two plugs on the Leo. The main difference I have noticed is the actuator limits. On the Leo you can set different upper and lower limits for idle and out of idle, on the Galileo, you can only set upper and lower limits, no differentiation between at idle or out of idle. I set mine so the maximum opening at idle is lower than out of idle so if it starts to go lean at wider throttle openings it can do but won't go over-rich at idle and offend the MoT man.

5, No.....

[CNG]

Blimey you two! Could you not have answered more extensively and quicker? Thank you. It's kinda real testimony that whereas I 'm sure multi-point systems won't have escaped your attention, young Gilbert still runs a Leo. If it works...

And I note you run a separate O2 for your Leo. That'd be my plan.

i've a near new Denso 02 sensor knocking about. I've ordered a cheapo Chinese AFR to display its output. Comes with its own sensor for £23 delivered? AliExpress. £23 - makes you wonder... only at that price how can I argue?

TPS: Looks like I want a 0-5V rotary sensor, this over a simple switch. This suitable to be hung on my SU or out of the muck, from the axis of my accelerator pedal / cable-op. Would look cleaner too. There's no 5V in a Series LR!


Is there a TPS of choice for this. All those I can find only have an arc of some 40 degs and /or have 5-6 pins which I won't know what to do with.

.
.

AFR gauge.png (186.89 KiB) Viewed 6214 times

[Gilbertd]

I've got a complete E-Gas system I removed from a P38 I was selling as a spares project and, while it isn't the best, does have a set of decent Matrix injector blocks so could use them along with a different ECU and reducer. I also drilled and tapped my inlet manifold years ago ready to fit the spuds but never went beyond that. Having used the P38 with the E-Gas on it, I didn't like the fact that it ran on petrol for the first mile or so and, with the way I use my car, I didn't like the way a fault on the petrol injection system would be replicated on the LPG system. With the Leo and a separate O2 sensor to drive it, then only thing on the petrol system it uses is the TPS and even if that failed, it would still run on LPG. While it may be possible to get marginally better economy with a multipoint, which will save a bit of money, I'll be using more petrol so is it really worth it financially? As it stands I've got two almost completely independent fuel systems so if anything fails on one, I can flick a switch and run on the other. Something that is a definite bonus when I'm a thousand miles away from home.

I bought a couple of the TT Galileo's mainly because one of them gave me a spare actuator for less than the price of a replacement actuator. I've got the plugs and sockets to make up an adapter loom so I could plug a Galileo controller onto the existing Leo loom if the Leo decided to turn up it's toes on me. The idea of that is to make up the adapter loom, program the Galileo to my car and chuck both in the boot next time I set off on a European trip. That way I could just swap over in a matter of minutes.

[CNG]

Yaris L8002-AM8lD.jpg (46.52 KiB) Viewed 6195 times

Ah makes sense. Doing battle with pedal sensors now. something off a Yaris looks an easy 'mechanical fit'. Has an arm et al.. Dirt cheap. Thing is, 6 x wires. Not a clue how to wire and get 0-5V out of it. Pin out etc.

[Gilbertd]

If it is a fly by wire system, like I think it is, it will have two pots in there, one going 0-5V the other going 5-0V. They do it that way so if there is a fault on one output, the ECU doesn't give you full bore just when you don't want it. The two outputs are compared and if they differ, it will put the car in limp home mode. You can supply a 5V reference from a 7805 3 terminal regulator, 12V in, regulated 5V out.

[LPGC]

You could use a 'proper' vehicle TPS and drive it from a 5v regulator as Gilbert said. But which one to buy/modify to get it to mate to the throttle..

A vehicle TPS will have range of movement of 90degrees over which it gives the 0>5v signal... Or you could fit any potentiometer with (say) 270 degrees of available movement, it will still only be turned 90 degrees by the throttle. If you set a 270 degree pot up as a voltage divider (which is it's most basic function anyway), feed it with 12V and only turn it over a range of 90degrees it can be set to give a range of voltage output between 0V and 4V... although in practice you'd offset it a little on the throttle so that it wouldn't restrict or be the 'bump stop' re throttle movement, so when offset it might give voltage output of between (say) 0.5 and 4.5v which is again ideal.

I've 'made' TPS's for carb'd vehicles in the past using a pot.. A bit of rubber hose stuck on the 'knob stub' bit of the pot at one end and stuck on the end of the throttle shaft at the other end, the pipe acting as a CV joint to prevent any lateral forces on the pot. Of course if fed with an unregulated voltage, since battery voltage will fluctuate depending on conditions the simple pot can give slightly different voltage output depending on those conditions, but the pot could be wired to a 7812 regulator. At the time I made my first TPS using a pot I had a tub full of various spec inexpensive pots (new from Maplin and also what I'd removed from various electrical equipment over the years) but I didn't have a range of 'real' TPS laying around to experiment with.

For sure accelerator position sensors on fly by wire throttle systems use at least 2 (sometimes 3, 4, 5) different 'pots', voltage outputs on each pot out of phase with each other to prevent misinterpretation of driver throttle input in case they fail in a way which sees one circuit short to another... and on some vehicles they go to even further lengths to ensure against misinterpretation of driver input by (for example) using AC input to each pot as reference voltage with each pot's AC input being out of phase with other pot's input... But if it's just a TPS (as opposed to an accelerator position sensor) they're normally a bit simpler than the accelerator position sensors.

[CNG]

Now I grasp the reason for all the pins on pedal-sensors that'll never fly, simply because I'll never get a pin-out, and fry the thing guessing.

Like the pot as a voltage divider fed by a 7812 regulator idea, it's simply a 12V zener? Or any regulated supply. I think I've a 10V version, seen on the back of classic Smiths fuel gauges. 10V might not be high enough to force it into range. Anyway the idea will work. That'd do it.

Since my last post I've found hall-effect sensor that works in 40 degrees, which is the rotational limit of my pedal. still looking into this.

[Gilbertd]

The reason for the 6 pins is that it will have two pots, so you've got 5V on one end of the track, ground on the other and a varying voltage from the wiper. Easy enough to check which is which with a multimeter. 7805 is a 5V regulator chip. One pin (usually the centre one) is ground, one is input (whatever voltage over 5V you give it) and the other is a regulated 5V output. Far more accurate than the old Smiths things and dirt cheap too.

[LPGC]

The voltage regulator 'chips' differ from Zenor diodes, a Zener is normally connected in parallel with a load and dissipates any over voltage as heat regardless of the current (I amps) that the load needs, where-as the output of a 7805 or 7812 is normally connected to the power input of the load and only dissipates V (input voltage - output voltage) multiplied by I (amps that the load is using) in watts as heat... If you connect a Zener across a 12V battery and the battery is charging from a 100amp alternator which normally sees battery voltage at 14.2 volts the zener might be fried regardless of the current flowing across the pot (unless you fit resistors in series with the zener that is parallel with the pot) because the battery/alternator could chuck hundreds of amps at it, where-as the 7805 or 7812 will hardly get warm because 'I'(amps) flowing across the pot (say you use a 10k pot) is so small if you use a pot that's high enough resistance (e.g. say a 10k pot, 'I' would be 12/10000 so 1.2milliamps, watts dissipated by the pot would be 14milliwatts and heat dissipated by the 7812 would be 2.64 milliwatts). You could use a zener but don't forget the series resistor! The 7805 or 7812 need minimal or no supporting components (maybe just a small cap) but no resistor to prevent the chip from burning out because the chip won't see much more than the load current, just as easy to use one as a zener really and would likely be more efficient.

Rotation of the pedal or rotation of the carb throttle butterfly? The carb butterfly will surely rotate more than 40 degrees.

[CNG]

I have a half-arsed understanding of Zeners etc. You've clarified the rest. Sorry re the 40 degs. I mean a stock TPS does 90 degs and thrown on my pedal about 45 degrees - hence it'll not deliver full scale 0-5V.

Working on finding solutions to this between posts, I've just , ahem, seen this...

https://etranscontrol.com/product/unive ... on-sensor/

A GM TPS is 3-wire, not sure how they got this to work 'full-scale' at roughly 45 degs, it moves 90 in vid??

Very tempted, but I'm thinking it's a pricey bracket, and it'll be £120 landed. Which compared to a few pots is daft.

[LPGC]

Why fit it to the pedal without first checking if you can fit it to the throttle butterfly of the carb itself?

One of the points I was making above is that there's a difference between a TPS (actual throttle sensor as in reflecting the position of the butterfly valve in the throttle body, nearly all of which turn through 90 degrees or very near 90degrees) and an accelerator position sensor, which is likely to be much more vehicle model specific and accelerator pedals have different ranges of travel (e.g. a 4x4 may have a longer stroke accelerator pedal to allow fine wheel torque control over rough ground etc).

A drive by wire throttle makes it very easy to implement a cruise control system, the ECU can easily be programmed to provide itself with an emulated/ calculated driver throttle input to maintain a speed, on nearly every car that has fly by wire throttle the only difference between those that have cruise and those that don't is the few buttons on/near the steering wheel and the option enabled in the ECU and/or BCU. Implement things like traction control, again the ECU over-rides driver input readings to decide it's own engine throttle. Things like variable throttle response to give better engine control (than would be with a conventional cable control throttle) especially with an oversize throttle body (allows an oversize throttle body to be fitted to ensure the throttle body won't be restrictive to airflow whilst still giving the driver good control over no load engine rpm and/or making the throttle pedal position versus engine torque relationship more linear than it would be with a cable).

But in all cases of drive by wire accelerator, the ECU still needs to know actual throttle butterfly valve position in order to provide the engine with correct fuelling (for Alpha-N failsafe / limp home mode fuelling, or in more general driving at least for tip-in/tip-out mixture enrichment/leaning conditions). An accelerator position sensor is a human interface gadget, a very important one but not really part of engine management, a TPS is part of engine management.

[Gilbertd]

You only need one pot, even though ideally it wants to be one with 90 degrees movement from one end to the other of the track. Looking at pots with a limited travel they appear ludicrously expensive as they are used for specific purposes. However, a ready made solution would be to use a TPS and attach it to the carb butterfly spindle. This looks to be about the cheapest I can find https://www.autodoc.co.uk/delphi/7899584.

[LPGC]

You only need one pot, even though ideally it wants to be one with 90 degrees movement from one end to the other of the track. Looking at pots with a limited travel they appear ludicrously expensive as they are used for specific purposes. However, a ready made solution would be to use a TPS and attach it to the carb butterfly spindle. This looks to be about the cheapest I can find https://www.autodoc.co.uk/delphi/7899584.

I don't want to bang on about it having said my piece but you''ll know what I mean by the comparison between a 0>5v (say OEM) TPS fed with 5v reference turning through 90degrees and a conventional pot that turns through 270degrees fed with 12v giving 0>4V output over the same 90degrees, and the conventional pot could cost pennies and have a handy protruding stub perfect for slotting on a bit of pipe that doubles as a CV joint that slots onto the throttle butterfly spindle at the other end... so the pot doesn't even need to be mounted directly to the butterfly or even be inline with it or completely parallel with it. It's also possible to 'dial in' the voltage response of such pot setup by using pull up/down resistors, so (for example) fitting a resistor between the pot and earth (increase the voltage reading at near closed position and over the full range of movement). The LPG ECU can probably be programmed to go with an 'idle TPS voltage hysteresis' so will see any voltage below the hysteresis setting as throttle fully closed.. So could use a 270deg pot with 12V over 90deg to give (say) 0.5 > 4.5V output, the LPG ECU would see full closed at 0.5v and give full throttle enrichment (and/or fixed stepper position) at full throttle.

[Gilbertd]

Sorry Simon, our posts crossed. You are quite right, feeding a 270 degree pot with 12V would do the job as you say and give something resembling a 0-5V TPS signal. It might need a regulated 12V supply rather than relying on battery voltage as that will vary depending on the state of charge of the battery and how much load there is on it at any given time. Simple enough with a 7812 though.

[LPGC]

our posts crossed

My fault too for not realising that mate lol

[CNG]

Ah, thing is, however well done - i have an aversion to wires and sensors everywhere. I spent all day yesterday looking for ways 'not' to do this. With not a straight panel on there and paint flaking where and when we look, car and driver match. Shall we say it's characterful?

If I put in few bits of this or that in there, it's not only that it looks 'orrible. If I simply lash a sensor on the carb, of course 'technically' it's the right way to go. A 90 degree BMW TPS can be had for under a tenner on the 'Bay of e'. Drop down to my local breaker and I'll see half-a-dozen - with plugs, and a nice length of loom. If I'm lucky, my arse bitten, rabies from the Rottweiller too.
Nay, problem is, this is not my Eurobox. Too many people do, only I can't put a white plastic Disneyland door on a Victorian terrace - or your 30s semi either. Anymore than I'd vote for giving Big Ben a digital display. This is England for chrissakes.

Yes, once I shut the bonnet, it's hidden - only it's about self-respect. I'd know.

This was why apart form the ease of hiding a 5V supply in the dash somewhere, if I went the pedal route I can hide that too. Trouble is, as Gilbert says, sensors at under 90 degrees are a mad price. Cheapest by Farnell [PSC-360 Rotary] and it's £180 with a 2 month wait. I know, I've looked. It's not even the price, if I fry one, I won't be able to dial for another quick. I am bound to do this too. This is a Land rover, it rains down the A-post.

You'll wear a Sou'wester... in it.

I spent yesterday looking at sub 90 degs Hall sensors on electric scooter pedals / twist-grips and sewing machines. My lad has a cable-op TPS on his Chinese moped which I like, best I don't take it.

There's these too:
https://hgmelectronics.com/products/cable-operated-tps

ttps://www.aliexpress.com/item/32954909008.html

I've been fighting against it however this is why I like Simon's pot notion. I can wangle it to give 0.5 - 4.5V ish at 45 degs.

Can't spend yet another day on AliExpress and eBay looking for half-arse solutions. Not daft at all, front-runner is now Simon's pot 'fancy'... or that glorified TPS bracket thing from the US - pushed up out of sight, off-centre with a linkage to the pedal spindle. More work and pricey.

[Gilbertd]

I've been fighting against it however this is why I like Simon's pot notion. I can wangle it to give 0.5 - 4.5V ish at 45 degs.

No you won't. A standard pot has 270 degrees rotation so at only 45 degrees, using a 12V supply, you'll only get a max of 0.2V (or 0.5-0.25V by setting the off throttle position slightly above the end stop). To get 0.5V with only 45 degrees rotation, you'd need a supply voltage of around 24V. Doable but it gets slightly complicated.

Ideally you'd need to use a sealed pot (IP68 rated) so it doesn't get filled with water but that would make using an off the shelf TPS better as they are designed that way. This is the extent of the wiring you would need:

Image1.jpg (10.18 KiB) Viewed 6115 times

download/file.php?mode=view&id=1916

However, we may all be overthinking this a bit. You don't actually need a 0-5V TPS signal unless you want to play around with a wide open throttle setting. All you need is something that tells the controller that the throttle is closed so you can use the overrun shut off for engine braking. In that case, a microswitch on the throttle pedal, throttle linkage or anywhere else you can fit it. Closed contact when the throttle is closed, open as soon as it is off idle.

[CNG]

Thanks G. That would fly only... I've cracked it. I think....

Only a day and half searching. At one point I was reduced to something like this. All very well - a TPS on an HS4/ HS6 SU:

HS4 HS6 SU carb with a throttle Position Sensor TPS 01.jpg (1.78 MiB) Viewed 6091 times

HS4 HS6 SU carb with a throttle Position Sensor TPS 02.jpg (710.68 KiB) Viewed 6091 times

Now I've seen the issues, the criteria has forced itself as I look:

1. Cheap because - not if, but when - the wet will fry it.
2. Easy and quick to get. No exotic US stuff.
3. Must operate at 45 degs - on or near pedal.
4. No 6-wire stuff for me to guess at. Want a 3-wire sensor with plug and wiring with pinout diagram.
5. Inbuilt arm - return spring would be nice.

I think... I've got it.

This even gets its own unboxing video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3x2EV9zacY

ISUZU TPS 8973059220

ISUZU TPS 8973059220.png (334.03 KiB) Viewed 6110 times

I can hide it way up, out of sight. Out of the wet too. That arm can swing, not on the pedal axis - as a linkage, somewhere to give full 90 degree throw. Proper 0-5V. Only 3 x wires to get wrong. iSUZU TPS 8973059220 - common as dirt.

I've found them at £8 each. I will buy three, and can afford to fry 'em at will.

Three for under £30. Finally, finally... Only took a day and half....