LPG Discussion Forum

Not started by me but someone drew my attention to this

https://chng.it/JByWb6c6zw

Signed.

I've signed - and unlike the rest of you, I do this without using the stuff. Only surely Shirley, and I don't like to cast doubt.. a very large bet says the writing is on the wall. I've read the petition. Who has will to make this happen, and what's in it for them? How does it sell coffee? Forecourt space is costly, they want us in the shop, buying high-margin tat and coffee - whilst blocking-up a pump. Fillings stations without space for shops don't exist, went under years ago. There's no money in fuel at retail. If you take one pump away for LPG, that's one less pump to block, and less coffee.

LPG is set to die in this country. It's pretty much happened, 15 years back every major town had several 'Simons' threatening to throw copper-pipe into P38 Range Rooneys. Today, umpteen kits sit 'used', on eBay. £150 a pop, tank et al.

The installers near me have gone. Without umpteen itinerant 'Simons' wandering about shoving these things in one end; what hope for pumps to serve them at the other? LPG fails to gain 'guardian-reader' status in the way EV has. When we continue to serve the self-interests of filling-stations we'll see LPG. As it stands, demand ever drops. What keeps the remainder of pumps is rarity. Retailers get great margin which is good, we pay OTT prices because LPG will still be cheaper than petrol. Yet, even that won't keep pumps around if they sit unused for hours.

The tighter sites had their LPG pumps removed, they want space for the shop or petrol, this to allow us to block pumps. More time blocking pumps is good. The bigger sites will be next.

LPG is not 'on trend'. There's no votes in LPG. Long-game, if we want to run gas, it's an LPG home-tank, or maybe CNG.
It's about the shop. LPG does not sell high-margin shonk and coffee.

CNG wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:31 am I've signed - and unlike the rest of you, I do this without using the stuff. Only surely Shirley, and I don't like to cast doubt.. a very large bet says the writing is on the wall. I've read the petition. Who has will to make this happen, and what's in it for them? How does it sell coffee? Forecourt space is costly, they want us in the shop, buying high-margin tat and coffee - whilst blocking-up a pump. Fillings stations without space for shops don't exist, went under years ago. There's no money in fuel at retail. If you take one pump away for LPG, that's one less pump to block, and less coffee.

Writing on the wall - or reversing the trend?
Of the three LPG outlets I use none are as you suggest. In Aberdeen two LPG pumps on Asda's forecourt draw customers from a considerable radius and it's in its interest as they may well visit the supermarket to shop, consume coffee, etc. Nothing but fuel is sold on the forecourt.
Another in Inverurie is self service located within the complex that sells bottled gas and coordinates home delivery of heating gas. It's additional business to them with no demerits.
The third is half way between Aberdeen and Inverness - read rural- and there's space enough to for it not to be stealing it from any other vending opportunity. Located separate from the petrol and diesel pumps - it's removal would offer no advantage.
The above three stations cater for a rural community where high mileages are inevitable and fuel costs matter and all three focus on fuel and are nowhere close to your characterisation. Your comments I assume are based on what you see in your locale but not necessarily representative of the wider UK.

CNG wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:31 am LPG is not 'on trend'. There's no votes in LPG. Long-game, if we want to run gas, it's an LPG home-tank, or maybe CNG.
It's about the shop. LPG does not sell high-margin shonk and coffee.

Ask anyone running a diesel which appeals to them more - diesel at £2.00/litre or LPG at £0.70/litre. If petrol and diesel prices remain high (world events are not pointing toward a sudden reduction) then possibly many who previously rejected LPG may reconsider. Affordable used EVs are still some way off, petrol and diesel prices are crippling - I wouldn't write off LPG yet. Not least, as with the costs of essentials sky-rocketing, fripperies such as overpriced coffee-on-the-go will be the first purchases to be abandoned. However hot that forecourt coffee is, it will do nothing to help heat the home through winter.

You've got new Dacia owners making up a fair chunk of the newer vehicles using the pumps - they are probabbly the most common vehicle for me to see filling whilst I'm using the pump. I don't understand where the petition is intended to go as it doesn't seem very clear on the website?

The one local remaining station is busy - they have 3 2000 litre tanks and before the other remaining station here (an MFG one that lost its pump recently) went there was a noticable difference in custom between the remaining Shell station near j14, and the BP MFG across town. The later generally is a fairly unplesant place to go, forecourt is falling apart and filthy, pumps are old and rusty, you routinely get asked if you have spare change on the forecourt, its filthy and the toilets are always out of order. They had the cheek to ask for 99.9p a litre for LPG from the same supplier as the Shell across town are supplied by, who on their recently refurbished and fairly reasonable for a service station site, are charging 72.9p for.

Its hardly a surprise that they removed the pump, but it was noticable on the few times I did use them, most of the customers on the rest of the pumps were putting a few pounds worth of petrol or diesel in, whereas most of the LPG customers would fill their tank. Now, the place is more often having more staff than customers. MFG argue that they want the space for EV charging bays - I just don't see the appeal of going somewhere like that if you can charge where your parking to go somewhere thats an actual destination, rather than a dying forecourt with motorway services prices.

Incidentally, I brought the first petrol I've had to since last September to top the tank up and freshen up the remaining quarter of a tank that was left - £1.667 at Costco watford for E10. Everywhere locally here is £1.80 a litre or more currently

Brian_H wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:21 pm You've got new Dacia owners making up a fair chunk of the newer vehicles using the pumps - they are probabbly the most common vehicle for me to see filling whilst I'm using the pump. I don't understand where the petition is intended to go as it doesn't seem very clear on the website?

I think, the subject of a Change.org petition has to be debated in parliament if/when a certain threshold of signatures is reached (100,000?).

You're correct, we do speak of different worlds... I speak of my own locale. I'm sure in true 'rural' areas, at the opposite end of the South East, thus Devon/ Cornwall/ North of the border etc, the requirement for LPG is greatest. Unfortunately that's a mild confusion, not quite the same thing at all. The demand and thus where the money is, sits in the major and more affluent population centres. I'm sure out in 'proper' rural you're right. Thing is, without the volumes, they will hang on to the last, but without the BIG volumes from suburbia, your point might support mine.

Not four miles from me there's anoteh world again. I can show you a line, 120 cars long; it's actaully become a stereotype. Top-specc'ed Range-rovers queued-up to the prep-schools. It runs for 20 mins every morning. Fees start - yes... start at £23K, with 2-3 kids at £30K a pop in there, I assure you prep-school Mum doesn't give a damn about petrol prices. She'd not wince at £40 a gallon.

Those things used to drop down the food-chain, to became conversion-fodder for Simon et al. Now they don't. And it'll be 'proper' rural, over the manicured fake-rural I live in, that pays the bigger price for the change.

They don't drop down the food chain as they are fit for very little at 10 years old now, and cause those that would have taken that kind of vehicle on to back off when they discover what work needs doing and the cost of doing it. Tales of timing belts needing major disassembly and expensive consumables put a lot of folk off. Thats before you get to what they can and can't actually do (the vehicle that is)

I'm sure you're right Brian. Cars are ever more throw-away. In MK you're barely 30 miles north of that sort of thing. Thing is, 10-15 years back, come owner number 2 and 3, luxobarges and the usual 4x4 suspects would be sat ripe for conversion. It'd be easy to find 6-7 year old jags/Mercs on LPG. Whatever the reasons, it's not happening today. Thus they're not on those pumps keeping filling-stations happy. When P regails tales of real need - busy rural LPG pumps, whilst those in cities and towns are empty, that's not boding well.

Thing is also a lot of the cars you mention above (range rovers) are diesel as whilst they don't mind forking out for fuel, they do mind paying more "road tax" (yes I know its really called Vehicle Excise Duty but its still seen as a tax in any case). Which obviously limits conversion options for most people.

CNG wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:20 am I'm sure you're right Brian. Cars are ever more throw-away. In MK you're barely 30 miles north of that sort of thing. Thing is, 10-15 years back, come owner number 2 and 3, luxobarges and the usual 4x4 suspects would be sat ripe for conversion. It'd be easy to find 6-7 year old jags/Mercs on LPG. Whatever the reasons, it's not happening today.

Possibly/probably because since the early part of this century, diesel replaced petrol as the engine for large vehicles. Reading posts by LPGC regarding conversion to LPG of newer petrol engines (eg, direct petrol injection) makes it clear that conversions are considerably more difficult and I can't help but wonder that the more frequent need to switch back to petrol from LPG during certain running/operating conditions isn't so excessive as to render conversion a nearly futile exercise.

CNG wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:20 amThus they're not on those pumps keeping filling-stations happy. When P regails tales of real need - busy rural LPG pumps, whilst those in cities and towns are empty, that's not boding well.

I get where you're coming from and on that basis it is probably my Asda LPG outlet that is most vulnerable while the other two may survive as being supplemental to the core business of supplying domestic and commercial heating fuels. Or maybe not as fossil burning central heating systems are supplanted by heat source systems as has already I believe, occurred in Norway.
There's also the LPG is a cut of the barrel aspect and therefore as long as a barrel is being cracked for petrol and diesel/kerosene there will be LPG available. That is obviously dependent on continued use of petroleum as fuel but demand from aviation sectors at least is not going to dwindle in the near future.

The independents selling with core reasons to do so will be the hold-outs. Supply of heating fuel is a very strong one.

Your local ASDA will come down to Head Office. They'll look at volumes country-wide and make the decision. Sadly I doubt, the fact there's queues round the block near you will figure. And don't go away thinking I'll be pleased. I don't use LPG, however somewhere in this, using its close cousin, LPG's decline is not good for me either.

Brian_H wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:35 pm They don't drop down the food chain as they are fit for very little at 10 years old now, and cause those that would have taken that kind of vehicle on to back off when they discover what work needs doing and the cost of doing it. Tales of timing belts needing major disassembly and expensive consumables put a lot of folk off. Thats before you get to what they can and can't actually do (the vehicle that is)

Agreed, the mechanical aspect alone is bad enough and then there's the added complication and expense of dealer only software upgrades, resets, and coding of new parts. I can't see EVs but as an even bigger nightmare in that regard. 400-800 Volt systems require a considerable level of expertise to work on and that won't trickle down to independent garages in a hurry.

I'm busier converting vehicles than ever.

With petrol and diesel pushing £2 per gallon, more than £2 at some forecourts and especially for super unleaded (which owners of old vehicles are just as likely to need to run on as new performance cars to avoid E10) LPG at half price (or more often well under half price) is starting to look like a good move to a seemingly increasing number of owners.

They can make bio-LPG. And they can make carbon neutral synthetic LPG (well, as carbon neutral as any electricity used during making it).

A lot of chat above has been about forecourts / availability. Where there is demand there will usually be supply. If Joe Bloggs realises that a local forecourt was selling a lot of LPG but then it's managers decided to remove the LPG pump then Joe Bloggs with his business head on might decide to set up his own LPG filling station near where that demand still is - It is much easier and cheaper to set up an LPG filling station than to set up a forecourt selling petrol, diesel, or an electric vehicle charging point. In the past we've seen such sites spring up in areas where taxis ran on LPG and more recently I've seen sites spring up in areas where for example Shell forecourts used to sell LPG but now don't.

But even if all LPG forecourts disappeared, people can have LPG delivered in bottles to their home (not just bulk storage tanks though that would be an option for some but also smaller exchange bottles e.g. 47kg red propane bottles). Someone who could only fill their car from red bottles would arguably be in a better position regards fuel availability than someone who can only refill with CNG at home (or work whichever the case might be) because red bottles can be exchanged at any of a network of gas company depots, at various shops, even at some petrol/diesel forecourts.

Hypothetical situation if the worst came to the worst and there were no more forecourts (and you could even read into that no more forecourts selling petrol or diesel either). Let's say I fancy a drive to Blackpool which is 100 miles from here. Let's say I don't have a pump to pump gas from red bottles into my car's onboard LPG tank. I could still have 2 red bottles in the boot and run the engine directly from them. If one bottle ran out I'd switch to the other bottle. Then at Blackpool call at the Calor gas depot and swap the empty bottle for a full one. Drive home. If on the way home the bottle that I'd switched to enroute to Blackpool ran out I'd switch to the full one I'd just got in Blackpool. Then when home I could call at the local Calor depot to swap the empty bottle again, or ask Calor to deliver a full exchange bottle to my home. If I've got a pump to transfer gas from bottles into my onboard vehicle LPG tank I'm in an even better position. And if there's no petrol available at forecourts I could even remove the useless petrol tank and maybe fit additional gas tanks where the petrol tank was.

CNG wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:08 am The independents selling with core reasons to do so will be the hold-outs. Supply of heating fuel is a very strong one.

Your local ASDA will come down to Head Office. They'll look at volumes country-wide and make the decision. Sadly I doubt, the fact there's queues round the block near you will figure. And don't go away thinking I'll be pleased. I don't use LPG, however somewhere in this, using its close cousin, LPG's decline is not good for me either.

The lowest fuel price (petrol and diesel) has for a long time been a supermarket's tool to draw custom to the store. No cheaper fuel than LPG and the Asda in question has a Sainsbury across the road from it (not a direct competitor) and it's main competitors (Tesco and Morrisons) are some distance away. The supermarket shop earns Asda more than fuel spend (esp LPG) so the decision on whether the pump remains or go will be influenced by the foot fall through the store it creates though obviously, LPG sale volume will be to an extent, an indicator of that. The more so if a direct connection via payment can be established.

Being in the city that LPG outlet garners city and rural customers (73p/l vs 88-95p/l) - the next nearest LPG outlet is some 18 miles away (north or south). So 40 miles of range lost for city dwellers if they had to go outwith for fuel. And a lot more trade for the rurals. Would the higher volume sales and economy of scale make for lower prices? Or would they reap the loss of their cheapest competitor? Long live Asda's LPG pump!

For all our sakes, better you're right.

CNG wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:37 am For all our sakes, better you're right.

Me or LPGC?
LPGC's final paragraph offers hope (in a somewhat dystopian manner) but presupposes the availability of bottled gas. Without me knowing where bottles of that size are used I can't comment but I think an over-arching concern not voiced explicitly in this thread is the question of how long fossil fuels will be available for road transportation use (esp civilian) and what mechanism - should a government decide to eliminate ICE vehicles from usage - would be employed. I cant see LPG surviving if petrol and diesel are withdrawn or priced out of reach.

It's obvious that with full electrification there will be a massive loss of revenue that previously accrued from fuel duty (and CO2 based VED) and the absolute lack of transparency regarding future plans to recoup that revenue is creating a great deal of suspicion as to just how much longer our ICE vehicles are viable.

I for one cannot afford an EV and waiting for an 8 year old 'affordable' one with dealer only repair ( affordable 400-800V expertise is going to take time to appear) and it would be worse than a modern ICE (with all their complexity, coding requirements, etc) which I avoid like the plague. Long live my 1999 Chevy (and Asda's LPG pump!).

In short LPG will always be available. What looks likely is the drip-drip reduction of the filling-stations we are used to. Like anything else, nothing much lasts after the money runs out...

However, LPG heating/ commercial applications and leisure use are not going anywhere soon.

In so many applications LPG is about the only thing that works. I've gone to massive lengths to secure my supply. I realised bitchin' about it was costing me more money, better I got on with it. This because I want it. Hence as Simon implies, we might not always be able to count on our local ASDA. Yet one way or another, simply decide you want LPG, and whatever route you choose, you'll get it.

I'm 52 now (getting old land feeling it lol) and expect to be able to run a vehicle on LPG during all my life. Maybe I'll also own an EV in future, I don't know.

Perhaps I will be one of the few still running an ICE vehicle in the future, I don't know. But 'synthetically produced carbon neutral LPG' is one of the main reasons I believe I'll be able to do that.

Something that makes it more likely I'll run an EV in addition to an LPG vehicle is that while LPG is available I plan on making a means for EV users to recharge batteries using an LPG powered generator. I may get an EV as a test bench for such setup. Or my plans may fall through around a decade (and at least second owner of an EV) after the average new EV has several hundred miles of range and can be recharged in 10 minutes at very commonly available charge points. Until then it will be very handy for EV owners to recharge from an onboard LPG generator when away from home. Heh, if LPG is carbon neutral what are the negatives to running an ice on LPG compared to running an EV anyway?

In discussions like this I sometimes look at the www.gridwatch.co.uk website. Invariably most of the electricity used in the UK is made by burning gas anyway. EV's run mostly on electricity that was produced by burning gas. Not carbon neutral gas but fossil fuel gas. The second most prolific means of electricity generation is from nuclear power plants. Nuclear power is very clean, so EV owners won't mind a nuclear power plant being built nearby then... When they have made clean electricity they have also made a way to make clean synthetic carbon neutral LPG, because electricity is used to make it. Until then any energy you use isn't completely clean. Not a great idea to buy a new car to be green either because making new cars uses a lot of energy and produces a lot of CO2. The greenest cars at the moment are old cars that run on LPG or CNG.

LPGC: Similarly, I see synthetic fuels (and bio-fuels) as a necessity that those planning our future have yet to realise. I can't help but wonder that when they do, the existing tooling/production capability for ICE will have been scrapped.

For your on-board generator (in essence a REx (range extender)), do you intend using an off-the-shelf engine or developing something new? Do you envisage an engine running at a single speed?
I've been deeply critical of automotive manufacturers' choice of engines and their lamentable decisions may be why RExs have disappeared. I'll wait until you've answered the off-the-shelf engine question before expanding on ideas I have that are far more appropriate to RExs that what has gone before.