Subaru and Flashlube

[bendyone]

What is the best arrangement for adding Flashlube to a 3L flat 6 Subaru engine? I'm getting confused

[LPGC]

Opening a can of worms! We all have different takes on this subject..

My take is that for normally aspirated engines where it's possible to fit a system where lube can enter at a single point just after the throttle body from which air does not have to flow uphill or flow far to reach inlet valves, single point vacuum type is usually a good bet - Normally aspirated Subaru H6 fits into that category.

For normally aspirated engines where engine manifolds have a low down plenum after throttle body from which lube would have to flow uphill to reach engine valves, I'd recommend a multi-point vacuum type lube setup as single point type could see lube pooling in the low plenum (which also adds a lot of volume to the inlet tract, same point as 'far').

I'd recommend an electronic type for most turbo / supercharged engines, whether multipoint or vacuum type would follow similar guidelines to those I set myself above.

Others would recommend a multipoint lube design for all installs, either vacuum or forced (electronic pump) where lube enters close to each inlet valve. Some forced electronic types see lube going into engine through LPG gas inlets on manifold but don't involve lube going through LPG injector units (lube enters into injection lines between injectors and manifold gas entry nozzles, a T is placed in each of those lines).

Still others would recommend the type where lube enters into gas line before LPG injector rails and lube flows through LPG injectors into engine along with the gas.

There are potential advantages and pitfalls with each type.

Argumentative bit - I tend to avoid lube entering through gas injector/metering units because I think lube can both damage them and cause problems with fuel metering even before damaging them. I tend to avoid multipoint setups where not necessary (reference first paragraph) because I think they may often supply some cylinders with more lube than others... I realise there a bit of difference in concept but some of the following effect can still apply - In toilets with multiple urinals (still on subject bare with me ), if flow rate from cistern is low enough, the urinals closest to the cistern feed pipe get flushed with more water than those further away, urinals only receive the same amount of flush when flow of water is high enough. Of course if nozzle size at urinals was small enough urinals would receive same flush even with very slow cistern flow rate. Who has done the complex hydraulic calculations on flow rate versus feed pipe diameter and nozzle size for multi point lube systems? On multipoint setups, nozzle size at each port (would be 4 of on a 4cyl engine, 8 on a V8, etc) are similar size as the single nozzle on a single point setup (i.e. combined could do 4 times the flow rate on a 4 cyl engine compared to single entry point), yet we still only want the same total flow of lube into the engine, so we adjust feed rate from lube bottle to achieve same total feed rate. At the low flow rates involved, who knows for certain each nozzle on multipoint setup will flow the same? Single point entry just after the throttle body is likely to see each cylinder getting equal lube as lube should atomise in airflow and be carried by airflow (which we know is equal to each cylinder) to each cylinder... 'Suitable engines' because we don't want lube to drop out of atomisation on it's route into the engine, it it does so then again some cylinders will receive more lube than others. The H6 has a small plenum, same height as throttle body and then air flows almost entirely down from plenum towards each cylinder - I reckon lube likely to stay atomised and flow equally to each cylinder, likely more equally than with multi point lube setups.

Simon

[4eyes]

Hi bendy. I had my 2011 4 cyl outback converted in the summer, and like you was getting confused about the flashlube. Like Simon says, the single point after the throttle body was what my installer recommended and works fine. Try not to over think it. Enjoy the Scooby, paul

[bendyone]

Thanks for the replys. I have had it converted and they have made a right old mess of it. It has been condemned as unsafe by a UKLPG installer. Trading Standards and the UKLPG are involved for misrepresentation. Should have used Tubbs again but went local for my convenience.
Watch this space.

[Tubbs]

Shame on you ! Yes ! You should have used tubbs again lol !
Best set up is a flashlube with multipoint branches on a h6. Definitely 100%. Be it a manual or electronic bottle. Dosed properly they will definitely go the distance. Single dosing can be a little hit and miss on this engine.

[bendyone]

Shame on you ! Yes ! You should have used tubbs again lol !
Best set up is a flashlube with multipoint branches on a h6. Definitely 100%. Be it a manual or electronic bottle. Dosed properly they will definitely go the distance. Single dosing can be a little hit and miss on this engine.

Email sent.

[LPGC]

No pics of your install so we can't say whether we agree or disagree with 'mess' or 'unsafe'. Any chance of pics? Why not say who converted it and who condemned it?

Don't read much into 'condemned'. UKLPG and members don't have the power to literally condemn anything. If you took a dangerously rusted car for MOT, garage might refuse permission to drive it away on public roads until at least rusted structural parts are sorted. You could drive it away while garage protested, they couldn't legally stop you, but if you did you would be breaking the law (so this is tantamount to condemning in my book). In contrast, if you took a vehicle to UKLPG and they condemned the LPG install, you could drive it away running on LPG against their protests without breaking any law (so this isn't tantamount to condemning in my book).

Reserving opinion until I've seen pics and read how it drives. There are a couple of UKLPG installers around my way that try to give customers the impression they have the power to condemn LPG installs as unsafe and/or not fit for purpose. On many occasion I have found LPG installs where they told customers 'We should condemn the LPG install and not let you drive away really' to have only minor issues, not necessarily even safety issues, and sorted everything out at little cost.

I'm not a UKLPG member but have no problem putting installs on UKLPG database, not sure if Tubbs is a UKLPG member or if so since when. Would agree you should have gone to Tubbs rather than whomever converted your most recent Subaru of course. Seems me and Tubbs don't agree on use of lubes for this engine though! I reckon this engine's intake system design is one of those that most suits single point lubes. I'm sure we'll agree proper fuelling (particularly at high engine loads) is one of the most critical aspects effecting engine valve longevity.

Pics of a Subaru H6 I converted on this thread http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13467

Simon

[bendyone]

Sorry I think it is better not to name at the moment as it is likely to get messy legally, however I will when I am able to show the details.

[LPGC]

Understandable. You're anonymous here and haven't named others or shown any pics - could you describe the install, what's fitted, how it drives, what's unsafe? Did you take car back to original installer for putting right?

Simon

[Tubbs]

Having seen a few pics and read the report. I would say it's definitely 'in need of some rectification' as Simon says though. Unsafe is yet to be seen, there is certianly one very concerning part. Hopefully bendy one will bite the bullet and bring it over to me for repair. Suppose I had better not get into specifics either at this stage.

[joshnosh]

id have to say. the JLM branch/spider thing on my H4 leaks profusely.
had to rebuild the whole thing and it still seems to end up leaking every now and then.


must have used the wrong glue

[Tubbs]

Well. Had a lovely day with the h6 Subaru today. That's one tidy motor.

[bendyone]

But no coffee and I brought posh biscuits

Been to London and back today running well. Full story a little later once the legal side of things are sorted. Trading Standards have got involved now.

[bendyone]

No reply's to my letters of complaint , Small Claims proceeding now issued 12 days left for a response.

[bendyone]

Well I won by default, they didn't file a defence. But a week later they have applied to have the judgement set aside as the court had "lost" the defence paperwork.
This was granted so we go to court on the 5th May.

[bendyone]

I feel I can bring an update to this. The garage in question was Ernigrip Motors Ltd in Middle Barton.
Here is a copy of the report on the installation by Gas4cars in MK



This was the "special" seal from Italy



More detail



This is why they had to raise the lid on the tank



And how to fix a flashlube bottle, Cable ties and brake pipes!



Solenoid mounting next to the exhaust pipe under the car



Still they said they were UKLPG approved.



We were due in the small claims court on the 5/5/16 but before this my Credit card company made a full refund under section 75, so I never got my day in court.

[4eyes]

Hi bendyone, glad you got it sorted. What's the reference to Mint Lpg on the certificate?

[bendyone]

Hi bendyone, glad you got it sorted. What's the reference to Mint Lpg on the certificate?

Although Ernigrip said they imported the kit from Italy they in fact brought it from Mint.

[4eyes]

I only asked cos Mint/Lpg Wales fitted my romano system last year to my suby and it's been perfect with no probs. I was looking at your photos with my mouth open, but it's running ok now?

[bendyone]

I only asked cos Mint/Lpg Wales fitted my romano system last year to my suby and it's been perfect with no probs. I was looking at your photos with my mouth open, but it's running ok now?

All running well now "Tubbs" sorted out the problems. Doing about 24 mpg on gas on a run less round town but over the last 5000 miles 21 MPG.