Filling up in Europe

[3sGTE]

hi everyone,

I will be driving through France/Germany/Austria & Switzerland this summer.

I have a 3 piece EU adapters set (dish / acme / euro). Is there anything I should know/any tips prior to me pitching up at the first filling station the other side of the channel? Is pump operation the same as in the UK?

[Gilbertd]

Pump operation is exactly the same although quite a number are pre-pay, particularly at night, so you leave your card (or a big wad of cash) at the pay desk before they turn the pump on. France is Italian cup filler, Germany and Austria are Acme and no idea about Switzerland as I never managed to find LPG when I drove through it. Not exactly plentiful in Germany either but it is there if you look for it.

[Bailes1992]

Do you get any issues with the lower octane of the LPG abroad?

[kbs]

Not strictly an LPG answer....

Have you considered filling the petrol tank with E85?
If you’re stuck with filling at the services, you may find E85 is actually cheaper than LPG – certainly true in some parts of France. E85 isn’t suitable for classic cars but might be worth investigating compatibility if your car was made in the last 10 years or so.

[Gilbertd]

Although they say that E85 is suitable for anything made after 2000, I wouldn't risk it. You don't know what damage it may do to the car and if you end up with half a tank of the stuff and go back to running on LPG, you'll be de-clagging the petrol system in a couple of months.

Re the lower octane of European LPG, that depends on the precise mix. In the UK we get 100% Propane with an octane rating of 113, in Europe they use anything between 90/10 and 50/50 Propane/Butane. But, the octane rating of Butane is still 95 so even a 50/50 mix will have an octane rating of around 104 RON so there should be no difference at all. I've also found that you use less of it due to the differing stoichiometric ratio of Butane. I never got better than 260 miles from a tank on my old Saab in the UK but got 280 miles out of a tank driving through Eastern Europe.

[kbs]

Although they say that E85 is suitable for anything made after 2000, I wouldn't risk it. You don't know what damage it may do to the car and if you end up with half a tank of the stuff..., you'll be de-clagging.....

Swap E85 for LPG in the above text, and thats all most exactly what I was told when I first considered LPG!

If you're unsure in any way, please do your own reading. Alcohol fuels are not as good as oil fuels but the scaremongering that has been generated (especially in the marine enviroment) is almost as bad as saying LPG vehicles are bombs.

[rich r]

I think the main issue with E85 in cars with LPG conversions is that we tend to leave the petrol fuel in the tank for weeks if not months, whereas a single fuel car would generally use up the E85 before it has time to absorb moisture and degrade.

[LPGC]

Swap E85 for LPG in the above text, and thats all most exactly what I was told when I first considered LPG

The difference here though is that the E85 would be going in through the petrol system, the claim here is that the petrol fuel system could be damaged rather than engine itself... Some seals, though fine for petrol, might degrade quickly if fuel contains that much alcohol. BMW V8 crankcase vent pipes are degraded seemingly due to alcohol in fuel, we used to be able to use LPG vapour hose for petrol fuel returns until they started putting alcohol in petrol, diesels are OK to use a mix of bio-diesel and normal stuff but on some engines seals are degraded if 100% bio is used.

Simon

[Gilbertd]

The ethanol attacks and eats rubber and copper so the entire fuel system has to contain neither. By 2000 it was seen on the horizon so most, but not all, car manufacturers use alternatives that won't be affected but anything earlier will definitely have fuel hoses and seals made from rubber, or rubber derived, compounds.

[3sGTE]

Thanks all.
Looking at the map of Germany, it looks like it's pretty widely available? http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/germany

RE E85, corrosion issues aside unless your car can 'sense' how much alcohol is in the fuel & adjust fueling parameters accordingly I don't think it's a good idea. When running in open loop mode the ECU will still think it's injecting petrol, surely the engines target AFR will be way off what it actually injects & super lean?
Even in closed loop, as the fuel pressure will remain unchanged, injector pulse times will go way up & could even hit 100% duty?

[Gilbertd]

Looking at the map of Germany, it looks like it's pretty widely available?

It probably is but after driving through France, Belgium and Holland where just about every filling station does LPG, I just found it not so common in Germany. I reckon in Germany I was finding LPG at probably 1 in 5 filling stations compared with the rest of Europe where it's more like 1 in 5 don't have it. Plan your route and fill up when there is somewhere on your route rather than, as I do, wait until I've got enough in the tank for 20 miles or so and stop at the next filling station. That didn't work for me in Germany as the next station invariably didn't have it.

[Talkingcars]

Personally I'd fill the petrol tank with the higher octane petrol, it won't damage your fuel system, and, if you don't use it for a while, the derogation will still leave a higher octane petrol in the tank.

Last week we came back from Naples (in a non LPG car). I filled at the last services in Italy, just south of Lake Como. We ran up through the St. Bernard pass (not recommended when towing, it's a heck of a climb), popped into Lichtenstein for the night, and drove up passed Zurich and 20 minutes in Germany before getting into France. I then filled again.

The point is that you may well get through Switzerland without having to fuel, unless you are spending time there.
I also avoided changing any cash into Swizz francs, most places take Euros but the exchange rate is harsh at 1 franc/1 euro.

Let us know how the trip went when you get back.

[Gilbertd]

That's probably the same route I took, I filled up just south of Lake Como too before crossing into Switzerland and heading up via Lucerne to Basel. I was towing just over 2 tonnes and some of the hills did make it work! Not a cheap journey though. In France the motorway tolls ignore the trailer and I pay Classe 1, charged as a car. In Italy on the toll road from Genoa to Milan they charged me at Classe 4, the same as a 44 tonne artic as I was towing. Then when I got to the Swiss border I knew I would have to buy the motorway vignette and had checked online for the price. It worked out at about 30 Euros, so not too bad. When I actually got there, although they would take Euros, the exchange rate meant I had to pay 45 Euros. Then to add insult to it all, the very pretty blonde with a 9mm Glock on her hip at the border tells me I needed to buy two, one for ze car and one for ze trailer! 90 Euros just to drive through the country....... Admittedly, the vignettes were valid for a year and I tried to find an excuse to drive through Switzerland again while they were still valid to make sure they were looking after the 1m of motorway I had bought.

[Talkingcars]

We bought the vignette in the Italian petrol station before the border for 42 euros, then found the cafe next door was asking 40euros, worst bit was I left the cafe to walk to the petrol station to buy it and then saw the prices on the cafe door as we walked back to the car!

[PhilMcConnachie]

Thanks all.
Looking at the map of Germany, it looks like it's pretty widely available? http://www.mylpg.eu/stations/germany

Yes, my impression when driving through there last year is that it's more plentiful than the UK.

[Gilbertd]

Latest for anyone driving through France (as I'm there at the moment), LPG varies in price from 87.9 c to 91.9 c on the Autoroutes and around 81.9 c in the supermarkets. With the current exchange rate (1.35 Euros to the Pound) that works out at around 65p per litre on the Autoroutes and 60p in the supermarkets. Still slightly higher than at home but a lot better than it was a few months ago.

[3sGTE]

Well the only issue I had was getting lpg on the autobahn in Germany, between bregenz & strasbourg. Was just unlucky I think that the stretch didn't have any (no services either) so I ran on petrol for 100 miles or so.
Everywhere else not a problem. There was very few stations in Austria but with the help of that site I found one near where we were staying. Ditto Luxembourg (unbelievably cheap there - 39cents/litre iirc!)

I noticed the stations in Austria publicised the propane/butane mix on the pump according to season which I found quite interesting.

Had no issues using adapters anywhere.

[3sGTE]

Oh top tip - the mobile network 3 gives you your UK data allowance in France, Italy and Austria, so you can get online under your UK plan so no extra data charges.

[Gilbertd]

Well the only issue I had was getting lpg on the autobahn in Germany

That's the same problem I had which is why I said it doesn't seem as widespread in Germany as in France, Belgium, Holland, etc where it is available at virtually all motorway services and they are plentiful too.

[Brian_H]

Oh top tip - the mobile network 3 gives you your UK data allowance in France, Italy and Austria, so you can get online under your UK plan so no extra data charges.

One word of caution on that - It also works in ROI, but not on the ferry on the way over there (not as inclusive minutes/data anyway). It may be the case as I found that it sends a message that shows incorrect rates.

It also works in Spain and Switzerland now - full list here http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home