Large 4x4 on LPG. Buying Advice.

[mondeoman]

The need may soon arise to change our Honda CR-V for a larger (what I would call full size) 4x4. There's nothing wrong with the Honda, it's down to towing weights. My wife's grandparents have decided it is time to give up their caravan, Grandpa is getting a little wary at towing a van weighing nearly 1800kg and in fact wants to downsize his car too. His old Shogun is, infact has been for some time, on it's last legs. The van is coming our way at a fraction of it's real value on the basis they can borrow it a couple times a year, meaning that I tow it to site, pitch it and pick it up the next weekend. Not a major chore as they don't go far.

So, Range Rover, Porsche Cayenne, Audi Q7, Volvo XC90 maybe. Not interested in a BMW X5 or Merc ML.

Any comments or advice, good or bad, any buying advice, LPG specific or just general gratefully received. Any other models to consider. Without exception from what I have seen so far all vehicles in this class have very poor reliability stats on the different reliability index, I guess that is the nature of the beast.

At the moment a 2002-2004 Range Rover L322 with the 4.4 BMW engine is perhaps the forerunner. It has the worst relibility figures of a bad lot, but there are loads of devotees meaning lots of advice and ready availability of parts, OEM, Used and after market on the web and the engine at least is generally reliable. Budget is not absolutely set but is likely to be around £8000 unless a well known supermarket chain decides to pay up their long overdue bill, in which case it could go up a little.

[Gilbertd]

I'd also go for the L322, it's the only one designed for a practical purpose rather than being a 4x4 for fashion reasons (and I'm biased....). I wouldn't expect a Cayenne to be suitable for towing as it isn't really aimed at that sort of market and know very little about the others so can't really comment. Not sure what towing weights are on the others either but the L322 is plated for a braked trailer up to 3,500 kgs so you'd never be able to overload it. My own P38 spent the first part of it's life dragging bent cars and trucks off the motorway and I've actually towed a 4.5 tonne unbraked trailer and, while a bit of a hairy journey, it did it.

I'm sticking for the time being with the earlier P38 which has it's own set of problems but I've now learnt what most of them are and have sorted them (I also think it is a prettier car than the L322). I've read a lot on the forums that suggests the L322 has better reliability but some of the faults can appear with no warning and leave you stranded. Gearboxes are weak on the diesels but the petrol ones are fine. They are, allegedly, sealed for life but most owners will drop the sump off the box and change the filter and fluid at around 100,000 miles to be on the safe side. There was a problem with front diffs but that should have been sorted when a car was serviced (it wasn't a recall, it was a mod to be done at service) so you'd need to find a car that has a Land Rover service history at least for the first few years of it's life. Land Rover will be able to tell you if the mod has been done to a particular car. There is also a silly fault where the steering lock sticks and doesn't allow the key to turn in the ignition. Not a major problem that can be sorted by drilling a small hole in the column and squirting WD40 in there, but the sort of thing that would really pish you off if you are in a filling station miles from home when it decides to do it. I've been told that the very early ones, 2002-2003, weren't put together quite as well being the first of the breed and a 2004-2005 is a better bet because by then the bugs had been sorted.

[classicswede]

Good to see you back Paul

The L322 is probably the best Range Rover offering ever imo and if I was to have a range rover that is the one I would opt for.

The Volvo XC90 in the T6 form has soft valve seat issues. The 3.2 I6 engine is a good lump and convert well. The rare 4.4 V8 is a bit of an unknown and could also have valve issues. I have gone on the side of caution with the V8 and used flashlube.

The other 4x4 you might want to think about is the Toyota Landcruiser

[Tubbs]

I was going to mention the land cruiser dai. You beat me to it.
The Porsche comes with a very funky towbar, you press a button and it all comes out by itself.
Think really it's between the L322 and a Land cruiser.

[robbie1003]

Howabout a grand Cherokee,lot of kit for alot less than the overvalued range rover, in my view just as good if not better.

[Gilbertd]

Howabout a grand Cherokee,lot of kit for alot less than the overvalued range rover, in my view just as good if not better.

Not for towing. A neighbour of mine bought a caravan a few years ago and then found that his Mondeo wasn't man enough to tow it. I suggested he bought a Discovery TD5 but he thought they were a bit pricey so he bought a brand new Grand Cherokee instead. Took the caravan away for one weekend and it developed a noise from the back axle so he took it back to the dealers. The dealer asked if he'd been towing with it and he replied that he had. The response from the dealer was that they may look like they are designed for it but they aren't really up to it. He got a refund from the dealer and bought a secondhand TD5 Disco which he still has today. That was about 7 years ago.....

[mondeoman]

Thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions, and for the welcome Classicswede, much appreciated.

I think my original post might well have been a cry for help, along the lines of "someone please stop me having a mid life crisis and buying a Porsche Cayenne", though in truth they are reputed to be excellent tow cars but miss out on the acclaim awarded to many other models because of the low volume. I was on a site in July where our neighbours for the week had a Cayenne, he'd had it nearly six years and it had only needed repair twice, which I thought was quite good until he chipped in that each time cost over £2.5k.

There are a series of tow car awards but I am sceptical as to how much they are influenced by commercial ties and favouritism, plus I'm more than a little concerned that the main one seems unable to differentiate between a Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, when they are totally different vehicles.

I had looked at the Jeep Grand Cherokee, my brother in law has one on an 02 plate which he's had since it was three years old. Never had problem but his has the Merc diesel engine. The Petrol engines they use are quite different. They use Chrysler's own powertech or something similar, a cast iron SOHC with two valves per cylinder straight from the WW2 tanks. The comments about towing issues are new to me but worth knowing.

Toyota Land Cruisers have never really floated my boat and are very expensive compared to other large 4x4s. Added to which the post 2004 model change imposed a 2800kg towing limit which, whilst more than enough for the caravan we plan to tow just suggests to me that the powertrain is not as strong as some.

What hsn't been mentioned is a Discovery. They have an outstanding reputation as a tow car but as the used prices are much the same as for a similar L322 then why but the Disco?

[Gilbertd]

The petrol RR Sport and Disco 3 (as the RR Sport is only a Disco 3 in a posh frock so it isn't really a Range Rover at all, but a Land Rover) has the spare dangling under the back at a funny angle which I suspect will cause problems with tank mounting and only came with the 4.4 NA or 4.2 Supercharged Ford/Jaguar engine. The one with valve seats made from butter. If you are looking at petrol and converting it, which I sincerely hope you are, then the 4.4 litre BMW engine in the L322 is the one to have. Nearly 300 bhp and valve seats that last forever without needing Flashlube. If you decide you want a diesel, go for an earlier TD5 Disco 2, the L322 and later series 3 Disco uses the 3.0 litre diesel that appears to have a design life of about 100,000 miles at which point it lays down and dies (if the gearbox doesn't die on you first) but the old TD5 seems to go on forever. It is a bit gutless though.

A friend, the former owner of my old Classic LSE Range Rover, after a couple of very doggy diesel P38s, has recently bought a Land Cruiser. It's a 4.2 diesel but it is huge, it dwarfs my Range Rovers and, as you say, they are expensive. He paid £9k for an S plate!

There's also a V8 version of the Grand Cherokee but I suspect the weak transmission will be the same (which the reduction in towing weight would appear to confirm). The other thing with a Jeep is the way the Yanks manage to make real leather and wood look like plastic imitations.

[classicswede]

The Jeeps are ok, there is a guy local to me who runs a small fleet of them all for towing but he will only ever run the 4ltr 6 cyl version as he does not like the V8. I prefer the V8 to drive and it is a nice engine but they are a little on the weak side. I sort of like the Jeep's but they are tacky and cheap looking.

I am not a big fan of Range Rovers either but I do understand why most owners do like them. The L322 is the best of them and of all them the one I would pick. The Disc is good farmers transport in TD5 form (best derv engine) and with some tweaking can be made to go a fair bit better. For the long runs the older disc does not have the comfort of the range rover.

[mondeoman]

Sorry, should have mentioned it is Petol / LPG I'm looking for. I have been down the diesel route, own the tee shirt and carry the scars of failed injection systems, constant MOT emissions failures and deep intakes of breath from the guys at the local garage every time you took it in. If I were looking at diesel then it would probably be the TD5 Disco or even back to the Jeep, but once burned ...

In all honesty this is narrowing down to a decent 04/05 Sub 100k miles L322 with the Beemer 4.4 with service history, initially at least from JLR which I should get into with my budget. Driving around today it's amazing how many I have spotted parked in the driveways of ordinary "middle England" housing estates such as the one where I live, "ordinary" people such as I running RR's (no, not Rolls Royces!). It seems stupid given my list of needs not to follow suit especially as I do like the "office" in the L322, the interior for me is what sets it above the older P38 or any of it's rivals, bar the Cayenne.

That said what LPG systems best suit the car. Is it total folly to look at already converted cars? If so what system(s) should they be running. I know I have been criticised (by some) for my budget approach towards LPG in the past, but that will not be the case with this car. If something fails on the Honda then 95% I can fix it, even removing th head and getting it reworked if needed. I don't fancy doing much to a Range Rover. I appreciate that give or take a bit getting one converted will set me back around £1500 which as everyone knows is a lot more than the difference in cost between buying converted and not converted.

[robbie1003]

My grand Cherokee is 2002 the 4.7 v8 with Romano multipoint LPG system,aslong as they are looked after they are very relyable,had mine 3years,appart from serviceing and tyres its been faultless. Tows a large caravan like its not there.

[Morat]

As a Jeep owner, I have to say the 4.4 Range Rovers look very nice although I'm very happy in my 97 Cherokee 4.0 which is a vehicle from a previous era!

As for buying converted or not.. I'd say you need to look at each case on its merits. I've noticed that most unconverted gas guzzlers tend to have lower mileages than converted ones, for obvious reasons. You may wish to pick up an unconverted Range Rover with lower miles and have it converted yourself. That way you get exactly the kit you want. Also, it's unlikely that someone would spank £1500 on a conversion then sell the car within 4-5 years so you're always going to be looking at injectors that have done a fair few miles and a tank that is halfway through its life. None of these are show stoppers, just things to bear in mind when you're looking.

[classicswede]

They are not an overly fussy engine but does need to be multi point. I have seen some out there on mixers!

As already mentioned the nice low millage cars will still be on petrol as where most of the converted cars will have done a lot of miles by now or if being sold not long after conversion could be a sign of problems. I would go and have a look at a few both converted and unconverted cars and weigh up my options from there

[dwoot]

The petrol RR Sport and Disco 3 (as the RR Sport is only a Disco 3 in a posh frock so it isn't really a Range Rover at all, but a Land Rover) has the spare dangling under the back at a funny angle which I suspect will cause problems with tank mounting and only came with the 4.4 NA or 4.2 Supercharged Ford/Jaguar engine. The one with valve seats made from butter. If you are looking at petrol and converting it, which I sincerely hope you are, then the 4.4 litre BMW engine in the L322 is the one to have. Nearly 300 bhp and valve seats that last forever without needing Flashlube. If you decide you want a diesel, go for an earlier TD5 Disco 2, the L322 and later series 3 Disco uses the 3.0 litre diesel that appears to have a design life of about 100,000 miles at which point it lays down and dies (if the gearbox doesn't die on you first) but the old TD5 seems to go on forever. It is a bit gutless though.

This isn't strictly true with the L322 diesel, the Disco 3 and RR Sport use a 2.7 litre V6 diesel which was changed to a 3 litre later in its life, these are the engines which can have issues, and have to have the body off to change the cambelts, ouch!!.

The L322 3 litre diesel engine is called the TD6, this is actually the straight 6 BMW 3 litre and is a very strong, reliable engine, if slightly underpowered in the L322, the thing that lets TD6s down is their GM gearbox which isn't up to the task and tends to fail at about 100k unless it has had the gearbox oil and filter changed regularly, and even then they can still fail.
The later L322 diesel is a 3.6 litre V8 diesel, which is generally reliable, ditto the gearbox, a few have had turbo issues though.

For the OP, I'm now on my 3rd L322 Range Rover- a 4.4V8, a TD6 and now an LPG 4.4 V8, reliability wise they have been good, this one had to have a new air suspension compressor-not as scary as it sounds, the other 2 just had service items and between the two of them I must have put 50k on them.
Engine wise the BMW 4.4 V8 and the ZF gearbox are pretty solid, I can't comment on the later variants as I've never owned one, but if your budget is £8k you will be looking at a TD6 or 4.4 V8 anyway, my advice is buy on condition and history over mileage, they're also very colour and spec dependent if you're worried about resale, ideally try and get one in either black or grey and whatever you do make sure you buy a Vogue, firstly they're a nicer place to be than an HSE secondly you will find it much easier to sell on.

[mondeoman]

Thanks for all the extra input, everything taken on board.

99% sure now that I am looking for a 2004-5 L322 4.4 V8 with dealer history. The only question that remains is hether to find one converted, or unconverted. As yet, there doesn't seem to be a much better choice unconverted than already on LPG.

[Gilbertd]

Every so often I have a scan through eBay to see what is about and it seems you'd pay roughly the same price for an unconverted car with 60-80k miles as you'd pay for a converted one with twice the miles on it. If it were me I'd go for the unconverted one and then get it done, at least you know what you have then and will get a warranty too.

I would disagree on the colour choice. Personally I think they look far better in light colours than black or very dark colours yet 90% of them seem to be in black and if they aren't all the greys, greens and blues are very dark so almost black. If you are looking at converting I suspect you intend keeping it some time so resale won't be high on your priority list but I know that if I was in the market for one, there's very few to choose from. Equally, someone looking for a black, or dark coloured, one has hundreds to choose from.

[Tubbs]

I had a bloke in a few weeks ago. Just bought an 07 rr sport. Wanted a service and diagnosis, eml was on. Popped the bonnet to find a mixer. Some emulators and a Leo ! I did chuckle. Informed the customer he had a rather large stumbling block. But he seemed very non plussed about it. So I tuned it up, re set the light. Told him it was bound to come on again. Recommended he change to a multipoint system or suffer irrevocable engine problems at some point. You can only advise though at the end of the day.

[mondeoman]

True resale is not high on my agenda, so short of one that has been brush painted in a delicate shade of baby diarrhoea the colour doesn't worry me too much. A couple of years ago white was all the range, now black is in again. If i were to come to resell it would be a lottery any way as to what is in fashion. I must say I haven't really looked at ebay, looking more at AutoTrader and Motors.Co.Uk and there seems little premium if any buying one converted than buying unconverted. I would certainly agree that 80k unconverted would be preferable to 150k with a worn kit in it, even though it would mean a trip down to Tubbs and umpteen hundred quid, I'd go for that.

Has to be a Vogue though, why oh why would anyone buy an HSE. why spend 70k on a Range Rover and not spend the extra few grand to get a proper one!

[bmbratz]

Hi,

I've been running a cayenne S 4.5 V8 on a BRC Lpg conversion for last 3 years with electronic flashlube and hasn't given me any problems which reminds me I need the Lpg serviced soon I forgot to service last year, as I remembered I serviced it one year and the chap checked the filters and said they were clean anyway so I decided it'll probably be better to get the LPG service every 2 years. But if you do go for a cayenne get a Flashlube kit fitted due to soft valve seals.

The only thing I've noticed especially when the weather gets colder and I get into the car first thing in the morning I get a whiff of gas when it switches over to lpg but wouldn't do it for the rest of the day until I'll start it again the next day!! Any ideas as this doesn't happen in the summer months just when it starts to get colder.


Thanks Guys

[LPGC]

I had a bloke in a few weeks ago. Just bought an 07 rr sport. Wanted a service and diagnosis, eml was on. Popped the bonnet to find a mixer. Some emulators and a Leo ! I did chuckle. Informed the customer he had a rather large stumbling block. But he seemed very non plussed about it. So I tuned it up, re set the light. Told him it was bound to come on again. Recommended he change to a multipoint system or suffer irrevocable engine problems at some point. You can only advise though at the end of the day.

Bloomin eck! A similar story - A few years ago I was called out on boxing day because a guy had arrived in his late model Landcruiser at the place he was taking his wife for boxing day dinner, was reversing into a parking slot, there was a boom, and then his engine cut out and wouldn't start... When I arrived I found a mixer system installed! The mixer, along with air ducting and part of the throttle body had been blown off in the backfire.. I effected a temporary repair and advised the owner that the system fitted was entirely inappropriate for the vehicle and he could expect the same to happen again. But he shrugged off the advice and I got the impression he thought I was trying to suggest he change it just to get the work... Even after my comments and advice he asked for reassurance that the same wouldn't happen again. He had had the vehicle converted by a pro installer only a few months before!

Simon