Lpga registration, leeds/w.yorks area

[aerofan]

Hi guys and gals,
So you may have seen my install thread and now thats its done im looking for aomeone who would be willing to check it out and register on the drive lpg for me. Im happy to travel within w.yorks also what sort of price would i be looking at?
Thanks in advance.

[aerofan]

Is this something that is not able to be done?

[Gilbertd]

It can be done and you would be looking at a charge of around £100 to do the inspection and add it to the Register (assuming you haven't broken any of the rules). Have a look at the UKLPG/DriveLPG website and see who is your nearest registered installer http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/approved-installers/. Not all installers will inspect an install done by somebody else though.

[aerofan]

Thanks Gilbertd, i did think it could be done and dont mind the charge but the couple of lpg fitters locally are polish lads and looking at their previous work i wouldnt trust them fixing a lawnmower! (Nothing against poles as my wife is one!!)
The thing is if something did need adjusting/rectifying i dont mind doing it but i want to know everything is to code.

[LPGC]

Pity you're in Peterborough, I would have done it for oooh half that price.

[Gilbertd]

I'm in Peterborough, not the OP. I would have suggested you Simon but knowing your thoughts on the matter, decided against it......

[aerofan]

Yeah im in leeds, do you not agree with diy installs simon or is it something you could do?

[Gilbertd]

It's not DIY installs he doesn't agree with, it's UKLPG and the Register.

[aerofan]

Hmmm im inclined to agree about the uklpg. I mean what is a "competent" person?
Without blowing my own trumpet im a qualified mechanic, former vauxhall master tech and ive got a hnc in mechanical engineering so id hope iam competent but this is also relevent to the field of lpg conversions. Also the fact that you can register and pass your own work just leaves it wide open for the bodgit and scarper merchants, as stated in a previous post about the local lpg fitters (who are lpga registered and wont be named on here) i went down to look at their wkrk and get prices before i decided to do it myself. What i saw was not good, the faro pipe was cable tied to the brake lines on the vehicle i saw, a substansial use of cable ties again under the bonnet, no protection to the pipelines, scotchblock on 1 bit of wiring and where ive soldered and heat shrank all my wiring they had used insulation tape( im willing to bet the wires arent soldered underneath either)
I wouldnt do sloppy work on my car that has my family in and i wouldnt do it to someone elses either but i suppose thats just me!!

[LPGC]

I wrote this before my battery died before I had my daughter today, I realise you've posted again Aerofan but there seemed no need to edit this post...

Yeah im in leeds, do you not agree with diy installs simon or is it something you could do?

I sell DIY kits and give technical support... Yes I agree with DIYers.

It's not DIY installs he doesn't agree with, it's UKLPG and the Register.

Gilbert is correct - I don't like UKLPG trade body, I consider their scheme a farce. I am, however, pro safety and have suggested a co,mmon sense alternative to their scheme.

No worries you didn't suggest Aerofan comes to me Gilbert mate, after all I am not a member of UKLPG, so obviously shouldn't really be able to register vehicles on their database eh

In the meantime, I can do safety checks just as well as UKLPG members and can register vehicles on UKLPG's database should customers require it - I could do this for you Aerofan...

[aerofan]

Having it registered kn uklpg database would be great simon. That is what my insurance company want to see apparently ao that is what ill do!
If you could let me know when it would be feasible to do and cost by pm then ill book her in with you.

[rossko]

I'm sure you've had a think about the position you could be left in if the poop hits the fan, and your insurers discover it's a fraudulent registration?

[aerofan]

why would it be fraudulent?
i thought only registered installers could place an inspected vehicle on the database, the car will be checked over as well anyway. My nearest registered installers is garbage and although registered, they obviously pass thier own work so anything goes by the looks of it.
At the end of the day so long as the vehicle is checked over by someone with more experience in lpg systems than me and its deemed safe and registered correct then as blunt as this seems that is what i care about.
Im inclined to agree qith simon and his view of the uklpg registration scheme, reading through some of the posts and views on here i think the industry needs proper regulation and as simon stated incorperating it into the mot test would be a good start.
Im guessing a "registered" installer who has done poor work and passed their own work anyway would come under the same fraudulent terms then or is this ok??

[Gilbertd]

Only a registered installer can add a car to the Register and Simon isn't. Simon's argument is that the system is flawed as a registered installer can pass his own work or can enter a car on the Register on the strength of another, non-registered installer asking them to. This is perfectly true but it does mean that if anyone other than the registered installer checks an install, it should not be possible for it to be entered on the Register.

[aerofan]

I totally agree with his point and as stated above my reasons for doing it diy rather than trusting one of the more local "registered" installers to butcher my car!

[rossko]

Okeydoke; just be clear you will be paying someone to falsify records for you.

[LPGC]

Thanks for your comments Aerofan, my contact details are below.

Let's just be clear what 'registered installer' actually means. It only means you are a paid up member of a private, profit making trade body and have passed a one-off 'test' set by this private trade body. It is in this trade body's interests to have as many members as possible, to make more profit, so a fail would not be in the interests of the trade body. The testers themselves have not passed any sort of official for purpose test before nominating themselves as fit to test potential trade body members...

Aerofan has expressed his opinions on those 'registered' installers is his area - he reckons their work does not meet his own standards. I do not know who those installers are, but I do get to hear lots of comments from customers on 'registered' installers and the charges they have made for 'corrective to safety standard' work.

Before I would write any sort of positive review on any LPG install I first have to consider the install safe myself - I would not register a vehicle on any 'safe' database if I did not consider it to be safe. This is not going to be a guaranteed pass in any event, but I will work with Aerofan until the install is safe, even if I have to send him away several times before I consider it safe. I am not going to be pedantic about any of those silly COP11 rule contradictions, such as those Gilbert recently commented on (another thread)... UKLPG members can have a field day with those contradictions, failing installs as they wish, that way they make more money, this is something I am not going to do.

The only records that will be falsified are those that the private trade body has made for themselves and their members. If their system was meaningful I would not be able to be in a position to offer UKLPG registrations. The trade body is in no position to make rules for me, for Aerofan, for Joe public or for anyone else having anything to do with a vehicle LPG conversion or anything else. This makes the trade body scheme a farce. The fact I am able to register Aerofan's vehicle on UKLPG's database makes this trade body's scheme a farce. The fact you are totally against what I am about to do, know full well what I am about to do, know whom I am going to do it for, but cannot do a thing about it (and neither can the trade body) makes the trade body's scheme a farce. The fact I could give you Aerofan's name and address, registration number (I'm not going to Aerofan) and Aerofan could also give full details of his resultant UKLPG registration to UKLPG and UKLPG could not do anything about it make UKLPG's scheme a farce.

Gilbert and Rosko - I am going to make sure Aerofan's vehicle is safe before I register it on UKLPG's database or give him my own competent person / installer certificate (which would be accepted by most insurers anyway never mind the UKLPG database registration). Most installs that get registered this way are likely not to have been checked by an installer or anyone else with my own (which will be similar to your) attitude to safety. As always when inspecting a DIY install, the most common and likely mistakes, those that I will initially look for, will be tank install security and pipe run mistakes, such as pipes running through suspension areas where they could be trapped / damaged, vapour pipes in the engine bay installed where they might be burned on an exhaust, unsecured items. These main points should make a vehicle fail an MOT. I suggest to you both again - that a mandatory MOT test on any new install would be a dam sight better system than we have currently with this 'get it checked if you want to use a small minority of insurers' 'system' that we have currently..

By supporting UKLPG with membership money or by writing pro UKLPG words on a forum like this you support the current farces in safety that I have described above. Meanwhile, if you are a member of UKLPG you probably seek to profit from your membership and describe UKLPG's scheme a positive step in safety to customers. Many UKLPG members enforce the generally held misconception that UKLPG is THE enforcer / legislative body in safe vehicle LPG installs. I suggest few UKLPG members are likely to repeat anything I have written above to customers when selling their services...

You tell me now... Who is doing more for safety in the LPG industry. Me making s start on a push for a change, or you? Think about it.

[Gilbertd]

Simon, this has nothing to do with safety at all and I am quite sure you are perfectly capable of checking an installation and making any recommendations on alterations that may need to be done. In the other thread (http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12025) you have been banging on for 22 pages about how the UKLPG scheme is flawed, how it is possible for a non-member to phone his member mate and get him to enter a vehicle he has never set eyes on onto the Register and certify that the install is safe. Yet here you are proposing to to the exact thing you are complaining that it is possible to do. A little hypocritical don't you think?

[rossko]

For all the bluster, in the end he is going to take your money and arrange a false record. It's not folk-hero subversion in a Guy Fawkes mask, its grubby money. After all, if he beleived his own spiel, he'd advise you to go for an MoT and that'd be good enough for him, sight unseen.

Just be aware what you are paying for.

[LPGC]

Yes I am capable of checking an install mate. In the other thread I have given reasons why I believe UKLPGs scheme is a farce and you have been defending UKLPGs scheme, without your clutching at straws arguments it might not have stretched to 22 pages. Here I am proposing to do the exact thing which I have said makes UKLPGs scheme a farce, the thing which for a long time you and Rosko said didn't happen. But at least I will be checking the vehicle, not simply taking vehicle details over the phone and registering the vehicle on the only current 'safety' database that exists. I know that a large number of vehicles on UKLPGs safety database have had no sort of check whatsoever and many of those have been converted by DIYers and registered via their equipment supplier.My actions here are not hypocritical, you simply choose to see it that way because it suits your arguments, I am sure you can see that if you step away from your viewpoint you can see my actions are not hypocritical - I have said UKLPGs scheme is a farce from the outset, I have suggested a change to a meaningful scheme that would be much more difficult to cheat. I see no reason to disadvantage myself or my customers by playing to UKLPGs 'rules' when much of the industry does not. If I have no faith in UKLPGs scheme, if I believe half of the vehicles registered on UKLPGs database have had no sort of check, if I have brought the flaws in UKLPGs scheme to people's attention, then how is it hypocritical of me to do a proper check and then register the vehicle on the database if a customer asks me to? And how do you conclude this has nothing to do with safety?

I am going to arrange a record that is more honest than half of the records on UKLPGs database. And just like all the other records that have been done via the phone a friend method, this record will also be impossible to prove as originating from a none-member. If UKLPG approach the vehicle owner and ask to see his vehicle he could simply say 'no', and it ends there. If he says 'yes' then if UKLPG manage to spare one of their staff (is that half of their staff for inspecting vehicles) then they will find it meets the spec, because I wouldn't register it if it didn't. If UKLPG approach the UKLPG member who registers the vehicle and asks if/when they inspected it, they will make up a false date and time the vehicle was inspected and it ends there. UKLPG cannot prove that the vehicle was not taken to the premises of the member who registers it and they cannot prove that a proper inspection was not done. If it comes to talking about grubby money, consider all the £15's that UKLPG make from doing nothing but letting their computers automatically add another vehicle details to their private database, then never inspecting the vehicle themselves. Think about all the £100's that UKLPG members get for spending half an hour inspecting a vehicle - if in fact they spend half an hour. There is ten minutes work involved inspecting an install in most cases - or explain to me how it takes longer?

Why would I tell the customer that they should go have their vehicle MOT'd, that the MOT station will do the check on their vehicle, that the MOT place will send details to the DVLA to facilitate the automatic fuel type change on the logbook, that the insurer will know that vehicle is safe - When this is a situation I have suggested but at the moment none of that is true. Instead we are left with UKLPGs pricate, inappropriate, failing scheme and database with it's many falsified records, and in a situation where the DVLA doesn't seem to care if vehicle log books don't accurately reflect the correct fuel type. In the mean-time, if the customer wants to use one of the few insurers that do look at UKLPGs database then his vehicle will need to be on that database. He can choose to visit a UKLPG member and pay £100 to register a vehicle on the database but the member might decide to be pedantic about the regulations or interpret COP11 differently to himself resulting in a fail. Or he can come to me and pay half that fee, I will do a proper inspection without being pedantic about it and allow him to make any changes I suggest without charging him a retest fee. Or he he could maybe phone his supplier and get it on the database via the phone a friend method without having any sort of check done on his vehicle at all. If you were not in the trade, had fitted a system yourself, were concerned about safety and wanted it to be right, didn't like bullshit or being ripped off, which option would you choose?