4.4 range rover conversion

[DavidL]

What's the going rate for a full turn key install on the BMW engined RRs? Prinz or similar.
Rossko - I'd be keen to hear from you as I'm local!

Sorry I dare say I could trawl the search options but it might be out of date.
Thanks in advance.

[classicswede]

For a top end system you would be looking at £1600 or cheap and cheerful around £1400, that is what I charge.

You might be best giving him a call to check their prices.

[Tubbs]

I charge £1550 for an L322.

[john_d]

Rossko - I'd be keen to hear from you as I'm local!

why dont u phone him?

or even pop in to see him if ur local?

[DavidL]

Thank all.
I'll speak to Rossko but not top of my list half term week! Just thought he might spot this.
On the plus side they are slightly less than I thought.

[andy evans autogas]

The Range Rover L322 convert really well and its one of the most popular ones that I do .... As for price you get what you pay for .... Here's a link to one of the many I've converted and ALL to the same standard.http://youtu.be/62n34XjiCBo Andy

[linsdav8284]

As for price you get what you pay for ....

Andy -All things being equal your assertion should be accurate. However it is wrong for a buyer to be told this. A much cheaper system with a good installer is always going to be better than top range system/ components with a poor installation I paid top dollar for the Prins VSI and its given me nothing but bother. Also had a lower end system done and its been trouble free . Give me a cheaper system and a good installer any day.

Also many installers have variations in price for fitting the same system. Your argument would suggest that the higher price indicates a better job . This is simply not accurate. Labour rates are different between installers as are profit margins.

[Tubbs]

Very true linsdav.
I heard a very similar prins horror story on Friday. Top money paid. Many things replaced upon the car that didn't need to be (perhaps) customer then got fed up with repeated visits and went elsewhere for a second opinion. Talked into more bits replaced. Reducer serviced. Injectors changed only to get the same fault. Back to 'head office' new ecu followed by new harness. All along the line being charged by everyone who touches the car even though it's only 5 months old.
At this point they have well and truly had enough. They want the system removing. New bumper putting on because of the filler. A new (second hand) inlet manifold sourcing and a bit of dash. It's getting sold and they are buying a diesel. I don't think anyone can convince them otherwise. I tried.

[LPGC]

I regard L322 Rangerovers with the BMW 4.4 V8 as a very simple conversion, the tank install takes nearly as long as the engine install because the air suspension pump needs to be relocated to the side of the tank.

I usually charge £1495 to convert L322's with the BMW 4.4 and have converted many dozens of this model, all run extremely well including those I converted nearly 10 years ago.

I see a great many 4.4 BMW V8's (same engine in 4.4 Rangerovers) where the installer has installed down-draught injectors horizontally under the engine cover on top of the manifold, on such setups the injectors are installed incorrectly because they are not orientated correctly (down-draught injectors should be mounted vertically not horizontally). I fit side-draught injectors on normal (none valvetronic) BMW V8's, these injectors fit neatly under the engine cover, the ECU fits inside the existing ECU box, the whole install is very neat whilst at the same time easy to service (filters etc easy to access) and the results are a very reliable system with drive-ability on gas or petrol being exactly the same.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[andy evans autogas]

As for price you get what you pay for ....

Andy -All things being equal your assertion should be accurate. However it is wrong for a buyer to be told this. A much cheaper system with a good installer is always going to be better than top range system/ components with a poor installation I paid top dollar for the Prins VSI and its given me nothing but bother. Also had a lower end system done and its been trouble free . Give me a cheaper system and a good installer any day.

Also many installers have variations in price for fitting the same system. Your argument would suggest that the higher price indicates a better job . This is simply not accurate. Labour rates are different between installers as are profit margins.

. No I suppose your right in some unfortunate circumstances you don't get what you pay for .... But most definitely research is the key. Andy

[LPGC]

No I suppose your right in some unfortunate circumstances you don't get what you pay for .... But most definitely research is the key. Andy

I don't think the layman (customers whom don't know much about LPG really)can properly research the field because there's so much mis-information about. Not only that, but unless the customer gets the full story (which would effectively mean the customer would have to fully understand everything that we do), then even without mis-information the field would be difficult for the layman to research. I think the only research a customer can do is to seek recommendations.

Only a few years ago many installers who installed, say, one brand of AEB system were criticising other AEB systems that used effectively the same ECU... even on the point that the other brand's ECU was no good! Back then if you bought an AEB system you bought a full set of bits from that supplier, so an OMVL system would have OMVL reducer and injectors (or sometimes Matrix injectors) and a Tartarini system would have Tartarini reducer and Tartarini injectors (or Matrix injectors). Besides the other AEB brands of the time, there was also Prins and BRC.

Now we have companies that only make ECU's, companies that only make injectors / reducers etc, some are often bundled together by the cheap suppliers, but not necessarily. We've moved on from the AEB system wars, now it seems to be generic AEB versus Prins, BRC and all the other none AEB systems. Many of us now fit 'one off' systems comprising the parts that we select for the application, yet customers main questions remain 'how much' and 'what system'. These days the second question doesn't make as much sense as it used to make - there isn't a one word answer anymore, and where there is a one word answer (some installers still fit 'branded' kits with same make injectors / reducer etc) this should arguably ring alarm bells with the customer why the installer isn't selecting different parts for different vehicles. Customers would have to research and learn a great deal to understand why we fit the parts that we do on the vehicles that we do. Part of that learning can arguably only be gained through experience. If a customer gets to that stage they will be an installer so would be fitting their own system anyway!

My son has been working with me a bit lately, over the weekend I let him convert his Corsa with old and new bits I had laying around. It has a new BRC tank I bought in error about a year ago, new Tomaseto tank valve, new filler, 10 year old Bigas ECU (tried various old ECUs I found on a back shelf until I found one that worked!), 8 year old Tartarini loom (first old loom he found laying around), AEB013 pressure sensor (I adapted the loom from AEB025 sender, didn't want to 'waste' a new 025 with all those old 013's knocking about!), new OMVL CPR reducer (not a favourite of mine but again laying around doing nothing), new Valtek type 30 injectors (chosen simply because they come supplied with small enough nozzles for the 1.2 engine), LPG injector loom adaptor for superseal injectors (Tart loom had Matrix injector plug), I adapted the loom for the usual AEB switch instead of the Tart switch, Faro piping all round. Obviously this install is a real mixed bag of components but when we select components for customers cars this, minus most of the wiring loom changes, is exactly what we do - and it gets better results than the branded kits... but explaining why this is so to a customer is a minefield because to give the customer any idea why it is true you need to get into some technical talk. If we had fitted some components which are arguably 'better' the results likely wouldn't have been as good. Top quality injectors that have nozzles too big and we both know the car would never run well...

I have had DIY customers decide to second guess the parts lists I have advised after coming on the forum and doing a bit of 'research'. I would never sell a DIY kit that wasn't appropriate to the vehicle, I knew the parts they decided on would be appropriate, but I also knew the parts the customer chose wouldn't be quite as appropriate as the parts I had advised, would lead to a problem locating those components and would cost the customer extra money to pay for them. Looking at the finished install with their chosen components and looking at the shape of the map after calibration just confirmed to me that the customer had made the wrong choice in second guessing the parts I had advised, not only did it cost them money for parts I didn't rate as highly in any case, but the install wasn't as neat from both aesthetic and technical points of view and I knew the parts they had chosen wouldn't be as reliable years down the line.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Tubbs]

The bloke is doing his research. He's on here asking questions !

[DavidL]

Anything like this is tricky to research properly as you need specialist knowledge and experience at which point you don't need the research!
I have lots of people coming in to me at work saying I want this or that. When you ask why its because the internet says so.
My LSE came with a stako system which has worked just fine, maybe I got lucky!
Its encouraging that the conversion is considered straightfoward for those that know but the name Prinz keep being bandied around as the system to have. I imagine its fine but that there are others just as good.
Thanks for the info
David

[Gilbertd]

My LSE came with a stako system which has worked just fine, maybe I got lucky!

and there you have shown one of the difficulties with doing the research. Stako make tanks, they don't make LPG systems so you don't have a Stako system, you have an unknown LPG system and a Stako tank.

Prins is often regarded as one of, if not the, top of the range systems. Prins is an approved installer only system so is not able to be supplied by anyone. It also appears that many Prins installers only install Prins so are under the impression that all other systems are inferior. It appears from posts on here by other professional installers who have been asked to investigate problems with Prins installs, that the other systems have moved on to the point where they are at least as good, if not better, than Prins which seems to have been left behind.

The one thing that Prins have is the Keihin injectors which are, or at least were, probably the best you can get. However, other manufacturers also now make injectors that are equally as well made, will last equally as long but are considerably cheaper than Keihin. Hana for example are Keihin made under licence. When it comes to injectors, there's Keihin that should last for over 200,000 miles but will cost you around £600 for a set of 8 (http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/keihin-lpg-cns ... injectors/), there's Valtek 30s which may only last 30,000 miles but will cost you a tenth of that (http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-autogas-valtek-injectors/) or there is any number of others in between.

As has been said, go with the recommendation of the installer and trust that what he intends to fit will be up to the job. Particularly as the BMW engined L322 isn't a particularly taxing conversion.

[DavidL]

See, you've made me look harder at the paperwork now. It is, as you say, Stako tanks and a Romano system. In my defence most of it is written in Polish though!

[LPGC]

My LSE came with a stako system which has worked just fine, maybe I got lucky!

and there you have shown one of the difficulties with doing the research. Stako make tanks, they don't make LPG systems so you don't have a Stako system, you have an unknown LPG system and a Stako tank.

Prins is often regarded as one of, if not the, top of the range systems. Prins is an approved installer only system so is not able to be supplied by anyone. It also appears that many Prins installers only install Prins so are under the impression that all other systems are inferior. It appears from posts on here by other professional installers who have been asked to investigate problems with Prins installs, that the other systems have moved on to the point where they are at least as good, if not better, than Prins which seems to have been left behind.

The one thing that Prins have is the Keihin injectors which are, or at least were, probably the best you can get. However, other manufacturers also now make injectors that are equally as well made, will last equally as long but are considerably cheaper than Keihin. Hana for example are Keihin made under licence. When it comes to injectors, there's Keihin that should last for over 200,000 miles but will cost you around £600 for a set of 8 (http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/keihin-lpg-cns ... injectors/), there's Valtek 30s which may only last 30,000 miles but will cost you a tenth of that (http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-autogas-valtek-injectors/) or there is any number of others in between.

As has been said, go with the recommendation of the installer and trust that what he intends to fit will be up to the job. Particularly as the BMW engined L322 isn't a particularly taxing conversion.

I was about to point out the 'Stako system' misunderstanding too, Gilbert DavidL kind of proved his own point without realising it eh!

Anyone can now buy Prins and Keihin injectors, together or separately, they're easily obtainable. I've fitted a few Prins systems for customers whom were adamant they wanted Prins fitting even though I advised them against it.

As you've pointed out, the question is whether or not Prins is worth the premium it sells for or not. I don't think it is, since it was only ever the Keihin injectors that made Prins worthwhile in the first place. Prins might have been worthwhile back in the day when none Keihin injectors couldn't approach on Keihin reliability or performance, but these days injectors that come close to Keihin in both respects are available at a small fraction of the cost. As we all know, Prins don't make Keihin injectors. Back in the day, Prins would only work with Keihin because they were the only injectors linear enough to work with the Prins brick of an ECU which is almost completely featureless in terms of tune-ability, other systems will work with many types of injectors including Keihin, and other systems can give better results with a range of injectors, including Keihin, than Prins can deliver using Keihin. The Prins ECU is also prone to crashing and being spiked whilst according to customer reports, Prins dealers charge silly money for even the most basic diagnostics etc..

There are a few fairly local Prins installers, word seems to be getting out that I fix Prins systems for a fraction of their charges! When it comes to other systems, modern day injectors including some of the cheap injectors have almost caught up to Keihin reliability and Keihin injectors do sometimes go wrong - Had a guy here the other day with a poorly running V8 Jeep, was a Prins system and a Keihin injector had gone down (still injecting but mis-dosing), the Jeep itself had only done 80000 miles.... Whilst on the subject of 4.7V8 Jeeps fitted with Prins, both myself and Classicswede have noted that engine valve problems seem common on this model fitted with Prins but uncommon when fitted with other LPG systems.

£600 is a silly amount of money to spend on 8 LPG injectors. Back on the subject of the normally aspirated 4.4 V8 BMW engine those expensive Keihin injectors would need to be mounted horizontally for a neat job on this engine and they won't work as well or last as long as they should mounted horizontally. But it does seem Keihin injectors are installed horizontally on 90% of all the Prins installs I see!

May seem I've got a bee in the bonnet about Prins, probably right! For many years the local Prins installers have criticised the systems I've advised / fitted whilst I have put right many vehicles they converted that didn't run properly, often after these installers have fobbed customers off to the point that they get fed up and come to me, often after those installers have charged many times for failing to put right their own mistakes. Then I hear customer reports like being charged £3500 for head gasket replacements on P38s etc at these firms, and after the work was done the cooling system still pressurised... with LPG... because it wasn't the head gasket that was gone in the first place but the LPG reducer Of course, the not running properly issues I've put right with Prins installs have been mostly installer's faults rather than Prins system faults, but I still like to point out that even if there was ever any justification for Prins installers to claim they fitted the best system, there certainly isn't any truth behind such a claim anymore!

Simon
Lpgc

[Tubbs]

I think that's the crux of the issue. The Italian injection systems just fuel better. So give better economy. It's a lot to do with the installer as well as the system.

[LPGC]

I think that's the crux of the issue. The Italian injection systems just fuel better. So give better economy. It's a lot to do with the installer as well as the system.

I think most installers, myself included, fit Italian systems on most V8's and especially on 4.4 Rangerovers where an Italian ECU fits nicely inside the vehicle's existing ECU box. Not sure Italian systems necessarily fuel any better than other systems, though.. Any system should fuel properly if properly calibrated. The Prins system mis-fueling is usually due to installers enabling Prins' open loop mixture compensation facility and/or setting incorrect offset and multiplier combinations. The other system that mis-fuels on many applications is the OMVL Piro, some Piro systems seem to have an issue at around 3000rpm that affects fueling, and let's not forget the Piro system is Italian!

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk