Bit of a rant about the state of the industry :)

[Tubbs]

I'm a bit depressed ! So apologies in advance. I'm hoping this will help. But you are all more than welcome to tell me to pull myself together
Being in the midlands. Price dictates pretty much everything. I think I'm competitive. 4 cyl £1050, 6 cyl £1175, 8 cyl £1350. All with UKLPGA registration. A proper warranty and gas.
Then you get people trying to haggle you down. So I tried going a bit higher, but then you don't get many enquiries. So that's obviously the price point that keeps the people asking.
It's the old get what you pay for thing again I suppose. But you know me. I'm a decent chap. Any problems and I will sort them. I don't shy away from anything. But it takes up your time, which I don't charge for. I just want them to be right. And my customers to be happy. Even if I have to change a set of plugs or diagnose a petrol fault that's effecting the gas running.
Problem being it seems to just scrape me a living. I will probably do better doing standard garage stuff. Which I really don't like very much. A lot of good converters have been in this position I'm sure. And we have lost a few very good eggs due to this. Like woody, tommo just to mention a few on this forum. All these years of LPG based experience going down the pan though. I look around me and so many good engineers have gone. Forced out by the 'done in a day' merchants. Customers thinking we are greedy. When in reality I'm lucky to earn £20 an hour when you take out the overheads. Doing a good job is really labour intensive. And cars are getting harder and harder to get everything to fit nicely.
So what do you do ? Make everyone pay for any problems. Scam at every opportunity. Or just simply ignore any problems. Cut corners on conversions, or fit as cheap a system as you can find.
It's just not me though. And I would rather not bother if that's the case. I couldn't see myself as a decent human being at that point. But that's the long and the short of it really. Not that I'm planning on going anywhere. I like what I do. Just wish it would make a good living. People need to wise up a bit and not be solely dictated by price.

[john_d]

in this current climate money is king and unfortunately folks just don't have a lot of it, you say you dont like normal garage work but what about offering just a bog standard service? shouldn't take up too much time of your time and its a bit extra £££.

[Tubbs]

I know what you mean john. I do a bit of air conditioning work 'on the side' so to speak. Not that we have had a lot of summer so far
Its more of a general rant about the state of the industry, i understand everyone is struggling, which is why i try to be as competitive as possible, but the calls you get generally go like 'company down the road will do it for £800 in a day etc. which just completely and utterly devalues the job. So you spend half your day explaining yourself. Eventually they end up here, complaining about their experience. Only to be told 'i told you so' and then they get the hump !
It just beggars belief really.

[robbie1003]

Know the feeling, been in motortrade in the accident repair side for 28 years and seen some changes, 20 years ago it was a well payed job but with the state of the motor industry and insurance companies haveing you by the nuts its a difficult trade to be in at mo. The jobs get more technical, use of different materials and repair procedure its a unrecognised professional trade to be in without the reflection in the wage. Where's it going to end is my question, the way the country is run is wrong, we need our industry back and start looking after our own rather than giveing wot we can't afford away. Anyway that's my moan over too,nice weather were haveing and its Friday.

[Gilbertd]

I look around me and so many good engineers have gone.

That seems to go for any trade these days. I've got 30 years experience in what I'm doing but we've got guys that have only been at it 3 or 4 years. They are treated the same as the other engineers but will admit that when it comes to the more complex jobs, they are lost. There's no substitute for experience but management don't seem to realise that. They think if you give someone a few weeks training and the tools to do the job, they can go out and do it which clearly isn't the case. I suppose a lot of it is down to the background of the management too. It used to be the case that you worked your way up the ladder until you got to the point where you were senior enough to make the decisions. Now a graduate comes in that has spent their career learning the theory of management but without any practical experience of it. I've got a boss who is younger than my daughter!

In your trade it's going to be no different to any other specialist job. Think along the same lines as the builder, plumber, etc. There's good ones out there but there's also a lot of cowboys. The cowboys do a carp job but they are cheap. It's only when the customer finds out what sort of a job has been done do they realise.

Anyway, what have you got to worry about Toby? The number of your customers that come on here praising your work ethic and skill has got to be worth a few extra customers?

[Tubbs]

Anyway, what have you got to worry about Toby? The number of your customers that come on here praising your work ethic and skill has got to be worth a few extra customers?

Dont get me wrong, I'm reasonably busy, but its only just paying the bills if I'm honest with myself. 'Some' wages left over but not a fat lot once you take everything away. So i get more conversions in, but i can only do what i can do. So i get some staff ? Thats a sure fire way to not make any money, because they have to be paid before you. Let alone all the hassle of training, employing, P.A.Y.E, days off sick. Extra stress of getting enough conversions in to cover a member of staff. Its catch 22. Increasingly the bottom line is, unfortunately not enough profit in the job to warrant the job anymore. Unless you cut corners, stop caring and go for the cheapest system possible. And its inadvertently the customers who are dictating the prices, all of us are having to cut our profit to compete with the cheap end of the market. Its a sorry state of affairs really.

[Gilbertd]

It's the standard problem of being in a business where you charge by the hour. A few years ago a guy I knew came out of the forces having been a motor mechanic and set up his own business. He worked hard, built up plenty of customers but reached the point where his income hit the ceiling because there were only so many hours in a day. Having built the business up, he actually wanted to reduce his hours so took on staff to do the work. They didn't do as good a job as he did, business dropped off and he ended up going bust.

You're affected more by the cheapo end of the market offering inferior installs and service at cheap prices. Unfortunately, people tend to only arrive here after they are suffering the consequences of these cheap jobs rather than doing their homework and coming here first.

[Tubbs]

I suppose once the the pound hits parity with the euro things will change instantly.....everyone, eastern european or not will have to charge the same, because the systems will cost the same from all suppliers who buy in bulk. It will just be down to spending power of the wholesaler ?

[Gilbertd]

Until the Chinese cotton onto it and start making inferior copies of respected items but at stupidly cheap prices. Then you'll get the likes of you supplying good quality originals while the cowboys will be whacking in reducers and injectors with a design life of 20 minutes that they can pick up for pennies......

[Tubbs]

Oh don't burst my bubble ! I was hoping that the euro getting level with the pound would sort it all out.
But you are right about the Chinese. That would kill the industry overnight again.
I think LPG has probably had its day anyway. Bio methane is the way forward, but its early days for the uk as yet. Things are progressing at a pace though.

[classicswede]

Have non of you seen the kits from china? There is a lot of it about, some on ebay and over here there was an installer in Rochdale selling it.

Some of you might also be shocked to find out what parts in common use are already made in china. The plastic filler boxes for example almost certainly are.

They there is the chepo kits from Turkey that have been around for ages

I know exactly what you are on about Toby and done in a day installers are causing problems for everyone. They are even fighting each other for work, I've seen 4 cylinder conversions down as low as £650! At that price even with buying power and the lowest price Polish parts there can be little more than the cost of the parts there.

I also have a feeling you might be niffed by and installer who has been slagging you off recently? And with who it was the well know dodgy installer that we would all be best off without I'm not supprised you are niffed.

[Tubbs]

also have a feeling you might be niffed by and installer who has been slagging you off recently? And with who it was the well know dodgy installer that we would all be best off without I'm not supprised you are niffed.

as you well know dai, that has always gone with the territory. If i let that kind of thing bother me i wouldn't still be here ! There is always someone ready to have a pop, and that particular dodgy installer you are on about is not even worth the typing ! After all he has a whole website all to himself !
Its not anything like that. Just when you sit down and do the figures. Just doesn't look like the profits in the job any more. Kits, Insurances, gas, phone, inspections.... Its all adds up to far more than half the cost of a conversion. Its not like i have a whole heap of company assets either. 2 roll cabs, a 4 post ramp, air con regas machine,welder, pillar drill,vice and a gas analyser. So its not like im blowing all my profits on tools I've had most of it for years and years.....

[Tubbs]

They there is the chepo kits from Turkey that have been around for ages

And don't forget the snide aeb injectors... Still want to have a go at them, but i haven't plucked up the courage to ring AGWW

[billynoband]

I know what you mean john. I do a bit of air conditioning work 'on the side' so to speak. Not that we have had a lot of summer so far
Its more of a general rant about the state of the industry, i understand everyone is struggling, which is why i try to be as competitive as possible, but the calls you get generally go like 'company down the road will do it for £800 in a day etc. which just completely and utterly devalues the job. So you spend half your day explaining yourself. Eventually they end up here, complaining about their experience. Only to be told 'i told you so' and then they get the hump !
It just beggars belief really.

Air con, must tell you mine. I had my wifes system re-gassed at my local ex nissan main dealer.
Came back not working, I found the air con system fuse missing . Put a fuse in and it still did'nt work for more than a minute after start up, so disgusted that I don't even want to speak with them as work that poor means a warning to me......of stay away, and dont touch my car again.

[Kingsford G]

Have non of you seen the kits from china? There is a lot of it about, some on ebay and over here there was an installer in Rochdale selling it.

Some of you might also be shocked to find out what parts in common use are already made in china. The plastic filler boxes for example almost certainly are.

They there is the chepo kits from Turkey that have been around for ages

I know exactly what you are on about Toby and done in a day installers are causing problems for everyone. They are even fighting each other for work, I've seen 4 cylinder conversions down as low as £650! At that price even with buying power and the lowest price Polish parts there can be little more than the cost of the parts there.

I also have a feeling you might be niffed by and installer who has been slagging you off recently? And with who it was the well know dodgy installer that we would all be best off without I'm not supprised you are niffed.

Can you imagine what system that is?I wouldn`t trust that one but most people have no understanding of a good or bad,reliable or unreliable systems,thats why they go for cheapo due to financial situation.I`m in a general repairs myself and as you guys know we all cut down our prices but people want it cheaper,do it cheaper they want it for nothing.You have eastern europeans undercutting every single trade.I`m not EnglishWelsh,or Scottish myself but am British and have a high outcome as all of you but how do you make it?I`m not even going to mention any holiday cos all I can afford is to take my little girl to a jungle adventure etc.

[Tubbs]

I didn't really want it to get into an eastern european slanging match tbh. I don't think that will solve anything.
Its cowboys from whatever nationality. Plenty of english dick turpins out there too. We could put our heads together and set up a cartel
What we need is a good LPG converter scheme. With a network of converters with a set pricing structure. If any problems occur during the warranty period then the customer can take the car to the nearest converter in the network. And if its under warranty, its under warranty. Run it through a central website. Needs about 10 converters to start with. Dotted around the country. All with good names and experience. Give customers confidence in the conversion. A 'USP'
But we are all too insular unfortunately.

[classicswede]

I've though about doing exactly that years ago.

The problem is everyone needs to fit the same kit really but not totally essential.

Looking at who is on here that could get involved I recon we could find 5 tops.

If there is enough interest in doing something like this on the forum then I recon I could fill the gaps with other installers that I know who do a decent job.

The trouble is we need someone to run the show. I've not got the time for it but would be willing to do a lot to help. Tubbs would you do it if there was interest. Do you want to discuss this in the installers area? I recon something could be done one way or the other.

[demonicwillow]

Funny how this topic has cropped up at this time as im going through the same situation, as some of you are aware im a marine engineer, self employed, but due to the economic climate of the past few years making a living is really tough, so I diversified, had too, the biggest problem for me is getting the money out of the customer, with a car its so much easier, you do the job and put the keys in a safe and the car stays in the compound until the bill is paid, cant do that with a boat, you cant tell the local marina not to let the boat out the locks until the bill has been paid, Toby your the same as me, like to do a good job at a good price, follow your work through with good customer service and back up and at the end of the day you feel good, pahhh those days have gone m8t, most of the customers are good genuine people but alot now are out to get what they can for as little as possible, even down to knowing there is an expensive fault with whatever, bring it in for a service, do the job, customer comes back at you complaining that there is a problem and it was fine until you serviced it, and it ends up costing you more than if you didnt do the job in the first place, its become a dog eat dog world, you have to cover your back so much and it costs and takes time, the smallest thing I find during a service and im on the phone to the customer, I guarantee my work, always have but I now have to charge for everything which includes consumables, its all priced in and I stick to my price, in times of austerity you stick to your price or even put them up, chances are you aint going to get the job but if you do its a bonus, your reputation keeps your regulars coming back and if your a one man operation there isnt enough hours in the day to do alot of discounted priced work, if they say "oh i can get it done cheaper there" then let them go there because in time the will get fed up with having to keep going back to get it fixed, due to all of this im seriously considering going back to being full time employed which will be very hard but needs must I suspect, gone will be the days when I can juggle things about and enjoy extra time off but there we are, its all about survival and making money cos your spends dont go very far nowadays, thats what your customers do so thats what you have to do

[rossko]

What we need is a good LPG converter scheme. With a network of converters with a set pricing structure.

Various importers have tried this; it has merit, the "central" operation have an interest in the whole network etc. Difficulties can arise when exclusive requirements are bandied about, standardised prices get bloated when folk add percentages on etc.

Of course you might consider an independant scheme, then it needs to be larger to sustain. You could involve several suppliers of equipment, even get the truly wealthy fuel companies support, and call it an Association

if they say "oh i can get it done cheaper there" then let them go there because in time the will get fed up with having to keep going back to get it fixed

That they do, but it doesn't benefit anyone then - they are left feeling "LPG industry is @!##", won't become anyone elses cutomer either - and of course tell all their mates/interweb.

[hardcorepit80]

I know that You probably won't like what I'm going to say, but this is my private opinion as a non installer.
I understand that market is really tough with more people offering lpg conversion with lower prices.But this is nothing new, it's been like that for hundreds years this is how capitalism , free trade and business works. Everybody wants to make some money and blaming cheaper components, china or eastern europeans won't make any difference...
For years some of you were installing kits only from one or two top manufacturers, unfortunately monopoly has been broken, new companies coming to the market with new kits= lower prices. As you probably know better than me, customer will always look for lower price,everyone would. On the other hand people don't think about consequences after installing kit for 650...
As I can see it, it's either go with the flow, adapt or pack up your business.

Someone also mentioned about "converter scheme" or something to standardise prices etc. it will never work as we live in free world of trade.It would be another "UKLPG like" scheme with people paying money just to be able to run their business....