LPG Discussion Forum

Had an interesting and polite conversation with a very nice bloke who is the manager of a well known system importer/supplier the other day and most of the points discussed were regarding UKLPG. I'm not going to mention people or company names etc, so for the purpose of this thread I'll call both the supplier and brand X because they effectively mean the same thing to most people in the UK. I've bought various components from supplier X and brand X over the years, injectors, reducers, etc, to replace like with like when repairing installations and tanks when other suppliers haven't had the size in stock that I've needed, but I'm hardly a regular customer of theirs. The transcript below is what I can remember of the chat and the gist of what was said but there will be points I left out and things forgotten, and actual words said will be different because I'm working from memory.

Recently, I had an enquiry from a potential customer regarding converting his Jap car and quoted for the conversion. The customer was happy with the quote but said he'd like system X instead. I told the customer I estimated system X would be a little more expensive than the system I'd already quoted for and that I'd call him back to confirm the price. I phoned supplier X and asked for the latest prices and was told "Yes we can see we have you on our computer system but I'll need to have a word with the boss before saying we can supply you because we have a three star tier system for installers and I don't know where you'll be on our tier. The boss isn't here right now but I will ask him to call you when he gets back in". I said "OK please ask him to call me ASAP because I'll need to quote the customer". In the meantime I re-checked prices from other European suppliers of brand X (we don't need to buy from supplier X in the UK to buy brand X, anyone can buy brand X from suppliers in Europe and this is allowed by UKLPG).

I received the return phone call from the boss of supplier X a day or so later... He told me "Yes I can see we've supplied you with so and so in 2012, so and so in 2011, etc (going back over the years) but according to our star tier rating you're not a very regular buyer or a member of UKLPG and UKLPG won't let us sell a system to you without having us come out to you first to show you how to 'set up' the system and for that we'll charge £1000 but you'll get that back over your next ten installs of brand X... Our prices are (price) for a 4 cylinder system, (price) for an 8 cylinder system etc". Unpleasantly surprised but smiling (and with my girlfriend beside me trying not to laugh), I replied with "Well I'd like to buy from like I have before, even though your prices are £50 more than I can buy brand X from other European suppliers, but I don't think I will buy from you because you're asking me to pay £1000 up front when I can easily buy the exact same components cheaper from other suppliers in Europe who don't ask me to pay £1000 up front and I don't need you to come out to me because, as you are well aware, I'm already very familiar with installing systems, including the system you supply, and £1000 seems a bit excessive to charge for a visit". X: "Yes I know it's a bit silly and there's nothing I could teach you but you would get that £1000 back over your next ten systems from us and we have to charge it because UKLPG tell us we have to". Me: "Why do you let UKLPG dictate to you, you must lose a lot of business?" X: "We probably do and every year we leave it until the last minute before renewing our membership, this year we may even not renew membership, but there is an advantage to being a member of UKLPG, UKLPG member installers seem to prefer to buy from us because we are also members and UKLPG tell us we have a third of the market share in the UK due to this". Me: "You may have a third of the share of all systems that end up being registered by UKLPG but to me this just shows how few installations are actually registered with UKLPG. Only a fraction of all converted vehicles are registered with UKLPG (which also implies that UKLPG don't have much of a foothold). I believe at one time UKLPG's own rules said that for an installation to be registered with them, the whole supply chain had to be members not just the installer, so I can understand why you wanted to be a member of UKLPG back then, but now UKLPG allow any E67 system to go on their register as long as it is checked by one of their member installers I don't see why you would continue to pay for membership, particularly as most other big name suppliers now do not. I would've thought installers would continue to buy from you regardless of whether you're a member of UKLPG or not, given that brand X is a well known and respected name. Other big suppliers (that used to be members but are no longer members) don't seem to be affected, it is UKLPG that has been affected because, due to so many suppliers now not renewing memberships, they have changed their own rules in order to stay in business - After all, if they hadn't changed their own rules to allow systems supplied by none member suppliers to go on their register then that would mean they wouldn't be making membership money from the installers of systems that come from those suppliers (there would be no point an installer being a member if when they'd converted a vehicle it couldn't be registered with UKLPG because the system wasn't supplied by a UKLPG member). UKLPG are a business and change the 'rules' to maximise profit rather than standing by their own rules". X:"Yes I agree and that's something we brought up with UKLPG and like I said we might not renew membership this year. When UKLPG changed their rules to allow systems from any supplier (irrespective of whether the supplier is a member of UKLPG or not), to go on a vehicle and to allow that vehicle to then go on the UKLPG register, we made a bit of a fuss... So UKLPG made a concession to us that if anyone checks out their website looking for an installer, those installers that install our system are highlighted on the website as prefered installers but UKLPG don't go as far as not letting systems supplied by none member suppliers go on their register". Me:"That doesn't seem much of a concession to you considering you're now having to charge any none UKLPG member installers who want to buy a system from you £1000 up front and those/any installers can simply bypass you and buy the exact same parts from Europe. It also doesn't seem very fair to you that you've continued to pay for your membership of UKLPG whilst other suppliers have cancelled membership, yet those other suppliers equipment can now be installed on vehicles and the resulting converted vehicle can go on the UKLPG database. I suppose, considering most suppliers are not now members of UKLPG, that if UKLPG had stuck to their original rules regarding the whole supply chain needing to be members, that they would now be out of business. I don't think this is how an 'association' that claims to vet installations, installers and suppliers should act and this is one of the reasons why I won't apply for membership - You would think an organisation that believes they carry any weight in the business would set rules and stand by them, not change their own rules as suits to maximise their own profits". X:"Yes you're right and like I say we might cancel membership this year". Me:"At the moment it would seem you're leaving yourself wide open to being pushed aside by other suppliers in Europe because if you won't sell to none UKLPG members there are plenty that will and they can also beat your prices". X:"Yes we know it's a point of discussion in our meetings, brand X sell the exact same equipment cheaper in Europe in order to sell in Europe with those countries being poorer, but this allows others in Europe to sell cheaper than us in the UK, however people in the UK might have to wait for systems arriving due to shipping if they buy from Europe and brand X in Italy are trying to stamp out European sellers selling our system to the UK". Me: "There's nothing to stop installers keep a few brand X systems on the shelf, they can keep several systems on the shelf for the price you're charging for your visit, if they find shipping times too long they might keep some on the shelf if they continue to fit system X. I can't see how they can stamp out systems coming over from Europe, all these European installers have to do is say they're installing a system but instead sell it to the UK. Besides, brand X is owned by an American company and anyone can just buy brand X from America even if the Italian brand X do manage to stamp it out in Europe". X:"Well yes that would get around any delays in getting brand X from Europe and it's true it will be difficult to stamp it out but brand X assure us they're putting systems in place to prevent it". Me: "In the meantime you have a market share that UKLPG says is one third of all installs done on their register, but only a fraction of installs go on this register because only a fraction of installers are members of UKLPG... If every installer in the UK asked to buy a system from you, how many of those would you already have accounts with so wouldn't be new business, how many would be members of UKLPG that didn't have an account with you (probably few), and how many wouldn't be UKLPG members (so you wouldn't sell to them without asking for £1000 first)?"

My opinion on UKLPG: The safety message that UKLPG send out is all well and good even though a little contradictory (because they spread the word that LPG is safer than petrol, yet any mechanic can work on a petrol system or brakes and there's no fuss about that). There are several reasons why I don't see myself paying to become a member: UKLPG are self appointed red tape generators and don't have the support of law. They cease every opportunity to spread the message 'you will probably not be able to insure a converted vehicle unless it has been checked / installed by one of our members', which is mis-information to the public because most insurers don't care if an install is on their private (not government) database or not - I don't like the self promoting lies. The law states a conversion should be checked by competent persons, it doesn't mention UKLPG. I don't like the 'we are the authority even though the government doesn't say so and hasn't given us any powers' attitude and I don't like red tape in business, there is enough of that already. The standards UKLPG endorse are thoroughly common sense (or should be to anyone who works on vehicles) and are based on European standards anyway (I'm not big on Europe but what was the point of UKLPG reinventing them?). Who would install a gas pipe next to an exhaust or not thoroughly secure a tank? Yes it is done, but somewhere there will also be someone who works at a garage who thinks spark plugs should be installed in the petrol tank... Despite the safety message they are unavoidably a profit making organisation and this seems to mean profit comes first. I think we've already had an obvious example of this (the supplier membership / whole supply chain example). All Britain's old BS standards are being changed to bring us in line with European standards - the systems we fit need to meet European standards, not British or UKLPG standards.

In a different chat (around a month ago) with another well known supplier (whos name I won't say here but is mentioned all over this forum) we got around to discussing the same subject. He told me his thoughts were like this: UKLPG need installers and suppliers regardless of membership of UKLPG or not, suppliers and installers can continue business without UKLPG but UKLPG cannot continue business without suppliers and installers. They realised that instead of being worried about UKLPG's rules and membership, they held more standing in the industry than UKLPG so cancelled their membership years ago and knew UKLPG would bend their 'regulations' to suit when others did the same - and they were correct. They know that by far the majority of conversions done in the UK and all done abroad are not registered with UKLPG yet still get insurance. The last point makes a mockery of the 'you won't get insurance unless your conversion is checked by our members' because all those none UKLPG registered conversions are insured. They know that many conversions that are registered on the UKLPG database have not actually been installed or checked by UKLPG member installers - because there are now groups of installers (mostly foreign) who put their money together to buy membership for one company, then all installers in this group register their installs with UKLPG through that one company without that company even seeing the conversions they put on the UKLPG database. This supplier echoed my thoughts that if UKLPG were more serious about safety and less so about profit, that one way of stamping out the 'clubbing together to pay for membership' would be to stop allowing members to register their own conversions on the database and instead to have premises up and down the country where installations on vehicles could be impartially but compulsorily checked before being declared safe. The DOT already has the MOT system, they could charge MOT testers for further training that allows them to do the checks, or UKLPG could set up separate test centres.... but being a private profit making company, who ensures UKLPG standards make sense?

What do you think?

What I think is thank god that uklpg don't have as much power as Gas safe, NICEIC, any other electrical installation body, city & guilds or the Institute of electrical engineering or whatever they all call themselves now. They are all well and truly in-bed together ,rule makers, jury and executioners. The insurance companys are starting to get into bed with them all ( like uklpg) even more though through supposed damage limitation and claim reduction which will lead to even more regulation and closed shops.
Which on the subject of , the firm I work for, their insurance company are coming to give us medicals and drug tests soon. And we don't even have health insurance through them.
Anyone remember when you could work for someone in the uk without having a health check, drug/alcohol test, credit reference check, identity check and the odd illegal enhanced police check through false supposed risk using those dodgy self-governing independant checking firms that Blair/Brown gave a golden handshake to.
Won't be long before anyone can pay £9.99 to Paypal (American owned of course) and you will be able to see a persons life history, including uklpg certificate .
It's all a huge slippery slope and most take it square on the chin and thank them too.

LPGC wrote:brand X in Italy are trying to stamp out European sellers selling our system to the UK".

Which, as we all know, is illegal while the UK is still in the EU. That's the whole point of it, free trade with no barriers between member States.

Gilbertd wrote:

LPGC wrote:brand X in Italy are trying to stamp out European sellers selling our system to the UK".

Which, as we all know, is illegal while the UK is still in the EU. That's the whole point of it, free trade with no barriers between member States.

That's true and is something I hadn't thought of Gilbertd.

I'll just remind people that those weren't my words, I was quoting what a UK importer/supplier said to me.

Simon

Never that simple
http://www.crippslink.com/index.php?opt ... Itemid=626

Gilbertd wrote:

LPGC wrote:brand X in Italy are trying to stamp out European sellers selling our system to the UK".

Which, as we all know, is illegal while the UK is still in the EU. That's the whole point of it, free trade with no barriers between member States.

I was thinking that, but then over the last day or two there has been a news story on the telly about Europe and our future membership of it. It was interesting to see France slagging us off for "picking and choosing" what we want to accept - seeing as France are one of the worst offenders for ignoring EU regulations ! French outfits own a fair chunk of our utilities, but the French utilities are still illegally "locked down" as far as foreign ownership goes. I believe Italy is another of those countries that is "a bit selective" in what they implement.

Here's one reason a lot of private aircraft owners are avoiding flying to Italy these days. Who would risk visiting Italy with an aircraft, knowing that if you stay for more than 48 hours (perhaps you have a slight technical issue), you'll be charged a punitive "luxury tax" that starts at €1.50/kg for a light aircraft - that would have meant €1500 for the Warrior I used to own a share in, in aircraft terms about on a par with a Mondeo.

But the story does nothing to improve my opinion of UK LPG.

Really surprised there haven't been more posts on this thread.

Many UKLPG members adverts / sales talk says 'you won't get insurance unless your car is converted by a UKLPG member'.
None members know the above statement isn't true.
None members adverts are listed alongside UKLPG member adverts.

Given the UKLPG 'safety' message, and given that UKLPG members have to pay a fee for membership (a fee that none members obviously don't pay) members would surely like the law to be changed so all installers have to be members? Or (considering the sales talk) would they?

Given the 'you won't get insurance' message that members would like customers to believe, none members might be a little peeved at UKLPG sales talk?

This discussion is commonplace and ongoing off the forum, why isn't it commonplace and ongoing on the forum?

Simon

LPGC wrote:Really surprised there haven't been more posts on this thread.
...
This discussion is commonplace and ongoing off the forum, why isn't it commonplace and ongoing on the forum?

Well it pops up every now and then, all the same arguments come up again, and then it goes quiet for a while. Since there isn't really anything new, I've a feeling most people just try and let it lie.

I did write a long reply then chose not to post, as im not a professional installer I thought my comments would not be wholly correct, all I can gather is that its a gvt quietly approved scheme for some clever money making businessmen giving more power to insurance companies to withhold payouts, gvt approves it but dont have the responsibility of setting up, running and paying out for testers but leaving the money makers alone to regulate themselves and do what they want, feel sorry for the installers/testers really.

For years I have been slating the LPGA for not doing anything other than collecting membership money and I still belive that has been 99% of their goal and still is. A lot of improvments have been made but I think there is still massive bad air caused by them especialy with the Greenfuel connection!

They have pulled their finger out and are doing something about controlling the quality of member installations but it all too little to late.

As much as I hate to say it we need something like UKLPG but with a new name and new faces.

There should be a 100% inspection rate of installations

It will need a lot of thinking about and input from the well established installers.

Trouble is we are stuck with what we have unless a group of installers can club together and do something about it. For that to have happened it would have need to have been done a few years ago before we got into the hole we are now in.

Just to add a few comments about "authorisation schemes" in general.

The other day I listened to a talk by a guy from NICEIC, who have just merged with Elecsa and another group to form one larger group. The way the guy talked, it was a very good marketing piece to people he could assume wouldn't spot the "grey areas" and outright lies - not too dissimilar to UKLPG. On other forums, it's clear that many electricians aren't happy with the way these schemes are run and see it as a money grabbing exercise first and actual safety some way down the list.

Wearing another hat, I get to see a bit of what goes on behind the scenes at another similar sort of body (can't give any more details) - one that has no legal mandate, but which has a de-facto monopoly on issuing "authorisation" to work in certain areas. People probably recognise the sort of thing - go for job on site, if you haven't got "the right ticket" you don't get the job because the employers have decided it's the easy way out of having to assess if someone is actually capable. Not too different from the way UKLPG has got into bed with some of the UK insurers.
Lets just say, they aren't having to look down the back of the sofa for cash.

In a similar way to UKLPG, they market themselves as though they have a legally imposed mandate. Also like UKLPG, they got where they are by a) setting standards and improving standards, and b) managing to market themselves so that third parties would treat them as having a de-facto monopoly. I hope UKLPG never manage the second bit.
In effect, if you get to that stage, you have no accountability. The laws of supply and demand are such that for everyone that turns round and complains, there are many, many more ready to take their place. So individuals effectively have to choose between the "non-mandatory" scheme or not working.

As classicswede says, for it to change, there needs to be a large body who are dissatisfied enough to set up a competing scheme. Good luck with that !

demonicwillow wrote:its a gvt quietly approved scheme for some clever money making businessmen giving more power to insurance companies to withhold payouts, gvt approves it but dont have the responsibility of setting up, running and paying out for testers but leaving the money makers alone to regulate themselves and do what they want,

Close but not quite. It isn't Government approved, I don't think it's even Government acknowledged (In fact, if you search the Direct Gov website for LPG conversions, you'll find no reference to UKLPG or anyone else for that matter). It's a commercial organisation that have started out the right way by producing CoP11 to make installs safer. It's just that they then seem to have let the power go to their heads and act as though they are a regulatory body, which they aren't.

Gilbertd wrote:... and act as though they are a regulatory body, which they aren't.

But they want to be, and if allowed their way would be happy to make it so.

i completely agree with all the comments above,the UKLPG is a @!## organisation,piss easy to be approved but nigh on impossible to get thrown out of,due to their need for subscriptions and registartion fee,s ,hence the reason there are so many approved installers now that should,nt even have been considered for approval.

But and there always is one , we are stuck with them untill either the LPG industry completely fails or some one or something better comes along.

IMHO its down to the importers/ suppliers to take the reins,draw up new regs [coz the old ones are shite] and police their installers with a rod of iron.

Greenfuel were mentioned somewhere above, i had a lot of dealings with them a while back and i have to say that Noel lock did more for the industry than mike Chapman ever did in regards of lobbying and promoting lpg,this was pre BRC days.


FWIW Woody

woody wrote:IMHO its down to the importers/ suppliers to take the reins,draw up new regs [coz the old ones are shite] and police their installers with a rod of iron.

That's not going to happen though - can you imagine "We're going to pass up on a sale and the resulting profit because we don't think you're a good enough installer"?!

If the big suppliers would join together and set something up between them it would be a miracle. Deep down they do not get on as the want the sales for them selfs. Perhaps now where they are not doing as well as the used to do to all the other improters the might actual work together.

The major distributors are in a position where the aproved installers would not need to pay a membership fee it could be included in part of the price of the kit. If the conversion registration is done through the suppliers they could make sure the kit used is a genuine import. The big problem is sorting out QC of the installs.

mat_fenwick wrote:

woody wrote:IMHO its down to the importers/ suppliers to take the reins,draw up new regs [coz the old ones are shite] and police their installers with a rod of iron.

That's not going to happen though - can you imagine "We're going to pass up on a sale and the resulting profit because we don't think you're a good enough installer"?!

They will still sell to the not so good fitters but the would not be aproved. There is now wa they would mis out on sales but a good qualit system in place would actualy gain them sales.

Hmmm funny how insurers mostly now want certificates for lpg installations and yet there isnt a law that says you need one and yet if a vehicle is mot exempt they dont ask for one ... that mot exempt vehicle could be a complete death trap but because the law says it dont need one then its fine ... also noted that all the modifications done to my jeep have been done by me but the insurance companies dont ask for certificates to show they been done properly they only want to know whats been done, tis all very well slagging off UKLPG but they are very clever money makers, as installers, why bother to register with them ?? if you all de-registered and didnt hand over anymore money they be sort of pooped really there aint nothing in the land that says you MUST register with them is there ??

So what's the suggestion..
a) Insurers are compelled by law to require engineer inspection for every modification?
b) Insurers are forbidden by law to ask for any inspections at all?
c,d) ditto for Mot?

I do get confused by these threads. How do these fat cats get fabulously wealthy by charging a whopping £12 once in a vehicle lifetime?
Why would it better if suppliers added a surcharge instead? (will that be £12? per part, per kit, per tank?)
How would the supplier operated scheme allow DIYers, recyclers and car importers to continue to validate their work?
Are installers tied to one supplier, if not do they need to 'approved' by every supplier they use? Will they be able to get parts to repair other systems, or we looking at "exclusive agents" here?
How could it all work in an eBay world, will LPG parts imports be prohibited except by the select few? How could that be done? How would that affect folk driving to Poland for a conversion?
What's shite about the current 'reg' (code of practice?)?

Personally i think the cop 11 is ok. Quite a few get out of jail free cards here and there. If a little open to interpretation but probably a bit vague. I have a copy in the loo. And in the workshop obvoiusly. I find the one in the loo at home gets the most use