700 miles on LPG without needing to refuel

[CNG]

Those numbers are a fair way out. If I implied my route is free, it used to be. Kind of. .I run a commercial lease, it does to a point bundle fuel.

From your standpoint, I can't remember when I last used day-rate electricity. I have no need to fill during the day. Gas and electric at domestic, or in my case commercial rates have doubled. Petrol/Diesel have not doubled in the same period. Hence, back when, I could very reasonably be smug with any LPG user, far less so today.

The simple calc: I'm not sure where you get your electicity from. I used to pay 4.6p per kWh. Today, it's now 2.5 times pricier, at 11.39 kWh. Thus compression at 3kW is 0.34p an hour. Day-rate is 2-3 time pricier.

Same again, gas used to be 2.78p, now 5.14p, - last year near 6.2p per Kwh. I'll do a real-world run and see what my meters read before and after fills. And the miles per £meter-unit spent. I used to be able to rightly claim a crazy 'equiv. mpg' figure. When I last did this, it still made LPG look pricey but as said - my costs to fill have doubled. Today's petrol/diesel needs to be at least £15-17 per gallon to maintain the price-differential I've been used to.

And that before we take the sunk-cost in. When I get a mo'. As I said, I've still a comfortable lead over LPG (which in reality is a massive lead, because I can't get LPG) - and let be petrol or diesel costs. Thus for me... for me... for me... with kit up and running, it still works. Back when, factoring lease considerations, it truly was near free, not now. I freely admit I'm less happy than I was.

My logic has made to shift.

Er, 2 sec thinkers - careful - think context here... Today CNG, for me... remains better than LPG even if it were slightly pricier, and yet it isn't slightly pricier... for me. Whereas back-when, my logic could be: 'CNG was vastly better than LPG, or petrol becuase it is so vastly cheap'.

Thus today for me, already set-up:

a) it's still cheaper than LPG and yet still mullers LPG
b) less so because it's cheaper, and it is.
c) more because I can get it.

Of course, without the set-up it's far more questionable. Hence, and I can't get LPG... with my set-up, until CNG loses its cost/hassle advantage with respect to petrol/diesel - I win. That's a very differnet range/cost discussion to the one in this thread. Minded that now I'm set-up, punctuating a journey to fill for petrol is more hassle than filling CNG, and the current cost-difference - I can't see the day coming soon.

[Gilbertd]

I'm not sure where you get your electicity from. I used to pay 4.6p per kWh. Today, it's now 2.5 times pricier, at 11.39 kWh. Thus compression at 3kW is 0.34p an hour. Day-rate is 2-3 time pricier.

Where do you get your electricity from? A friend with a small workshop has just managed to get his commercial rate down to almost the same as the price capped domestic rate (as the price cap doesn't apply to a commercial tariff). It had gone up to over 70p per kWh with his previous supplier to the point where he wouldn't switch his compressor on to use air tools but use rechargeable ones and charge them at home overnight.

[CNG]

Borrowed a van recently, I'd forgotten how much time filling / queues / payment for petrol/diesel takes.

The broad point I make is this. electricity bill or not, It's already a minority view - either gas is hardly your herd-choice is it?

Hence, if I could 'Thanos snap' my set-up across to 'average-joe' he'd weigh it in.. Whereas one 'Shazaam!' later, faced with the option, a minority of the minority already running LPG might well rethink. And that'd be with LPG near them. More so if their regular LPG fill-up goes? And that, girls and boys has happened to me. Nearest LPG used to be 3 miles one direction, 4 the other. Now, 25 niles or 20, and they want a silly price.

For the likes of me, short of a bulk LPG tank and Simon's pump (woe we forget) the competitor to CNG can't be the fuel we can't get.

[Gilbertd]

More so if their regular LPG fill-up goes? And that, girls and boys has happened to me. Nearest LPG used to be 3 miles one direction, 4 the other. Now, 25 niles or 20, and they want a silly price.

For the likes of me, short of a bulk LPG tank and Simon's pump (woe we forget) the competitor to CNG can't be the fuel we can't get.

Or 47kg bottles and a pump (you could probably use your existing one) and you'd have LPG delivered to your door.

You do have a way of avoiding questions though. Who supplies your electricity?

[LPGC]

More so if their regular LPG fill-up goes? And that, girls and boys has happened to me. Nearest LPG used to be 3 miles one direction, 4 the other. Now, 25 niles or 20, and they want a silly price.

For the likes of me, short of a bulk LPG tank and Simon's pump (woe we forget) the competitor to CNG can't be the fuel we can't get.

Or 47kg bottles and a pump (you could probably use your existing one) and you'd have LPG delivered to your door.

You do have a way of avoiding questions though. Who supplies your electricity?

I wouldn't think the CNG pump would be suitable for pumping LPG, it's designed for vapour input and vapour output, even if we try feeding it with LPG vapour it'll condense into liquid under the high pressure from the CNG pump? I suppose it depends on the pump design but if it uses anything like a piston it could hydro-lock with liquid...

[LPGC]

Those numbers are a fair way out.

We'd be interested to know your numbers...

I based calculations on an 85L capacity tank (simply because the CNG compressor I looked at could flow 85L/minute so made the calculations easier to understand and 85L seems a decent capacity for a tank, many of us have LPG tanks that hold around 85litres), your tank may be a different size? If your tank is smaller, of course this will make a fill cheaper in terms of both gas and electricity to compress it.

You've said your compressor only uses 3kw not 4kw, this will make the cost of compressing the gas lower, especially if you get cheaper electricity...

What do you pay for KWh of electricity and KWh (or cubic meter) of ng?

How much pressure do you put in the tank? Obviously if you're filling to a lower pressure you'll be putting less gas in the tank and the compressor won't have to work as hard so may use less electricity.

Cost per mile on petrol at (say) £1.30 per litre? Cost per mile on CNG at whatever price it costs you for CNG al

[CNG]

It's a while since I've done it. I'd need to knock-off the heating over-night and have an empty or near empty tank. That'd be best to be accurate. Thing is - it's not clear how this happens whenever I speak on the subject yet it does...., rather than the listener think;

a) This bloke's an idiot. It's impossible BS. He does not do this.
b) This bloke is doing something I know nothing about. He does do this, and it's clearly involved. This doesn't fit with my understanding. I'd best walk in his shoes for a bit.

What tends to happen is people straddle the two. Mis-read my words and I finish in circular-logic and dispute of reality. When from my standpoint and self-interest, I'd be happiest with a). Because b) will be in open dispute and who needs it? Who needs CNG to become a 'Facebook Fact'. Once information is in the wild, it'll soon be mis-information, and this won't be better.

Fact. I don't look like Angelina Jolie, hence we'll come on to Ms Jolie in a mo'. CNG is not ideal, yet it is viable. It's cheap, it's legal and it works. It's in parts of Europe, Sth America, the Middle East and Asia. It's in the UK with commercial users, and a handful of private users.

If we stop to think, what I say must be true. Large chunks of the world operate CNG. Right there, that is all I for one ever needed to know. My guess? CNG has minimal uptake in the UK because truth is, we're too rich, and vested interest don't want it. If we could make CNG something aspirational and celebrty-virtuous in the way the EV has become, it'd fly.

That is not going to happen. Me? Don't straddle this, I m very happy with a) it's easiest. And Ms Jolie?...

She couldn't care less.

[LPGC]

It was me asking, I don't think you're an idiot or cannot be doing what you say. I've never run on CNG myself but I know a bit about it and can do most of the maths to have a very educated guess about the rest.

You might own a clamp on electric current measuring tool to check the Amps your compressor draws but even failing that could look up the current draw info for your model compressor, or what's the smallest fuse you can use in it that won't blow?

Straight forward questions about the size of your tank, how much pressure you put in it, how much you pay for gas and electricity, etc.

Genuinely interested but we will go around in circles if we don't put real numbers on any of the aspects.

[CNG]

Simon, I've got your number. I'll give you a call.

[Gilbertd]

I've also been asking who supplies your electricity as it is useful information and may help my friend for his workshop supply. Admittedly, he isn't there at night so a cheaper night rate is of no use to him (as about the only thing still on at night is his burglar alarm and I don't think that would draw much).

I'm just curious. Real numbers would put some clarity into the subject. We know the cost of petrol and we know the cost of LPG so having accurate costs for CNG could give a further option for the future. I wouldn't go with a) as you are doing it but wouldn't go into b) either as I do know a fair bit about it, or at least from a theoretical standpoint, I don't think it is particularly involved either. The component parts may be different and not particularly easy to source, but compressing a gas and putting it into a tank isn't exactly complex with the correct equipment.

[robertXX]

gosh i feel like i have just taken a trip through the twilight zone reading this thread !

re tanks , i am seriously considering putting a cylinder tank between the wheels up, against the chassis, in a running board box on my car ..

IMG_6872-copy.jpg (978.6 KiB) Viewed 4812 times

give me maybe another 50 litres on top of the 60 i have allready , the astra is so much nicer to use wih 80 odd litres available .

and just dont get me started on the whole eco4 install i had in january , i still have no idea if the ASHP is set up correctly !


regards
robert

[LPGC]

Simon, I've got your number. I'll give you a call.

Not heard from you yet mate. I'm a bit ill now with cold like symptoms, probably caused by spraying bleach at my boat cabin headlining to remove black/water marks and breathing some in.

[LPGC]

gosh i feel like i have just taken a trip through the twilight zone reading this thread !

re tanks , i am seriously considering putting a cylinder tank between the wheels up, against the chassis, in a running board box on my car ..

IMG_6872-copy.jpg


give me maybe another 50 litres on top of the 60 i have allready , the astra is so much nicer to use wih 80 odd litres available .

and just dont get me started on the whole eco4 install i had in january , i still have no idea if the ASHP is set up correctly !


regards
robert

Looks like there's plenty space for side tanks.

What's going on with the eco4 install?

[robertXX]

Looks like there's plenty space for side tanks.

What's going on with the eco4 install?

thanks simon yes i hope so , it would make the car more usable now theres only about 5 places in the uk under 95 pence a litre !

eco 4 wise i dont want to derail this thread , shall i start a thread on it ?, i dont know if its appropriate for the lpg forum .


regards
robert

[LPGC]

thanks simon yes i hope so , it would make the car more usable now theres only about 5 places in the uk under 95 pence a litre !

eco 4 wise i dont want to derail this thread , shall i start a thread on it ?, i dont know if its appropriate for the lpg forum .


regards
robert

I get gas delivered to home in red bottles, pump from red bottles into my car tank. Costs me around 86P per litre, many people get it cheaper than that, some pay more.

We can talk about whatever we want, there are threads on boats, have discussed heat pumps, CNG, etc. Gilbert fits better than the usual type heat pumps. Probably a good idea to start a new thread.

[Gilbertd]

The heading is General Discussion, so it can be about anything really. Might be better to start a new topic though to keep things vaguely in one thread (even if it will veer off at a tangent sooner or later).

[robertXX]

ok will do, thanks chaps .