Cast iron valve seats and LPG

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LPGC
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#61 Post by LPGC »

Gilbertd wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:03 pm
LPGC wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:03 pm fitted LS3 V8 engines in them (argh let me have one of those engines for my boat please!)
Hmm, as yours is Ford based, it wouldn't fit, or not without a lot of work, but mine is GM based so would bolt straight in......
You'd be off to a better start, not sure if your bellhousing (or flywheel to spline drive adapter inside bellhousing) or engine mounts would fit. We'd both need a marine exhaust suitable for the LS3, engine management electronics, probably a closed cooling system.

I haven't looked into closed cooling systems much, not sure how much they cost but I know you can either run just the engine closed system or the engine and lower exhaust manifold, cheaper if just the engine. Would allow dropping in any old Ford small block without needing to swap bits over such as marine inlet manifold, water pump, distributor, core plugs, etc and the engine would be a keeper instead of semi-disposable due to being eaten from the inside by salt water (or even fresh water without corrosion inhibitors). Then in time could swap in better performing bits such as aftermarket aluminium heads, intake etc. The heads on these old Fords are the main limitation for performance (followed by the rods), the old cast heads can be gas flowed for a minor increase in performance, early 90's Mustang 'GT40' cast heads a bit better still, but much better aftermarket aluminium heads are available and could be fitted in future for a decent performance boost even without a longer cam. I think the standard old GM engine heads flow better than the standard old Ford heads though, your Vortec spec heads probably a bit better still.
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Pinger
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#62 Post by Pinger »

LPGC wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:03 pm I won't be doing any work on the engine tomorrow, will instead be working 'off site' at a local firm that runs trucks (such as large Iveco's etc) that were originally powered by big diesel engines... But they have removed the diesel engines, fitted LS3 V8 engines in them (argh let me have one of those engines for my boat please!) and converted them to LPG. And they run a large fleet of them! They all run LPG monofuel, no diesel or petrol tank even fitted.
That has me baffled. Both the choice of engine, and why.
The LS engines are considerably more powerful than say, the L31 Vortec 5.7 I have (400 hp vs 260hp) but the torque peak for the LS3 is around 4400 rpm - high for a truck that had a diesel and, the consensus (as gleaned from a USA forum) is that the LS engines all rely on rpm to deliver. Presumably, they have changed gearing to suit.
Presumably (again!) an LPG injection system - but how does that cope without petrol for cold start/running?

The why is more perplexing. Unless they have undertaken very expensive emissions testing to re-classify them such that they can enter Low Emission Zones (without incurring the penalty charge) I can't see the point (or that the re-classification costs will ever be amortised). Maintenance wise the LS3 will be simpler than with EURO 5 and 6 compliant diesels (aren't EURO 6 diesels permited in LEZs anyway?). There must be some other reason escaping me.

LPGC
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#63 Post by LPGC »

Pinger wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:13 pm
LPGC wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:03 pm I won't be doing any work on the engine tomorrow, will instead be working 'off site' at a local firm that runs trucks (such as large Iveco's etc) that were originally powered by big diesel engines... But they have removed the diesel engines, fitted LS3 V8 engines in them (argh let me have one of those engines for my boat please!) and converted them to LPG. And they run a large fleet of them! They all run LPG monofuel, no diesel or petrol tank even fitted.
That has me baffled. Both the choice of engine, and why.
The LS engines are considerably more powerful than say, the L31 Vortec 5.7 I have (400 hp vs 260hp) but the torque peak for the LS3 is around 4400 rpm - high for a truck that had a diesel and, the consensus (as gleaned from a USA forum) is that the LS engines all rely on rpm to deliver. Presumably, they have changed gearing to suit.
Presumably (again!) an LPG injection system - but how does that cope without petrol for cold start/running?

The why is more perplexing. Unless they have undertaken very expensive emissions testing to re-classify them such that they can enter Low Emission Zones (without incurring the penalty charge) I can't see the point (or that the re-classification costs will ever be amortised). Maintenance wise the LS3 will be simpler than with EURO 5 and 6 compliant diesels (aren't EURO 6 diesels permited in LEZs anyway?). There must be some other reason escaping me.
The torque peak is higher but they still make plenty torque low down too.

Can't say too much but apparently the firm tells officialdom that they're running on CNG when really they're running on LPG...

They can start on gas when weather isn't cold, they disabled cold start enrichment. I haven't seen how they manage in the cold but the boss said something about pre-heating the engines.
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Pinger
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#64 Post by Pinger »

LPGC wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:03 pm

The torque peak is higher but they still make plenty torque low down too.
Fair point - but not at the level the diesels would have provided. Regearing is a must I'd have thought.
LPGC wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:03 pmCan't say too much but apparently the firm tells officialdom that they're running on CNG when really they're running on LPG...
More to this than I'm aware of then...

LPGC wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:03 pmThey can start on gas when weather isn't cold, they disabled cold start enrichment. I haven't seen how they manage in the cold but the boss said something about pre-heating the engines.
That would be a sensible solution to the LPG and for engine longevity.

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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#65 Post by LPGC »

When I last made enquires about buying another engine or having my engine rebuilt lots of people advised me to contact this local firm http://www.engine-data.co.uk/engines.html so I called them, they seemed very knowledgeable and helpful. Their website doesn't seem to be working properly at the moment but the link above will give a good idea of what they're about.

I had another chat with them today, they said it'd probably be cheaper to buy a crate engine than to have them rebuild mine. I said I'd be happy if mine wasn't fully rebuilt but any issues with it fixed. They said they'd give it a basic internal inspection for £60 if I took it through to them in a van or trailer. Then they said that since I'm local they'd save me the bother of taking the engine to them, will come out to me on Monday. I'm pleased at that, I think it's going to be well worth the £60 to have people who really know what they're doing building this specific model of engine take a look and tell me what's wrong with it. They asked me to remove the heads before they come, so that's my next job.
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Pinger
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#66 Post by Pinger »

LPGC wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:17 pm When I last made enquires about buying another engine or having my engine rebuilt lots of people advised me to contact this local firm http://www.engine-data.co.uk/engines.html so I called them, they seemed very knowledgeable and helpful. Their website doesn't seem to be working properly at the moment but the link above will give a good idea of what they're about.

I had another chat with them today, they said it'd probably be cheaper to buy a crate engine than to have them rebuild mine. I said I'd be happy if mine wasn't fully rebuilt but any issues with it fixed. They said they'd give it a basic internal inspection for £60 if I took it through to them in a van or trailer. Then they said that since I'm local they'd save me the bother of taking the engine to them, will come out to me on Monday. I'm pleased at that, I think it's going to be well worth the £60 to have people who really know what they're doing building this specific model of engine take a look and tell me what's wrong with it. They asked me to remove the heads before they come, so that's my next job.
'Crate engines' are commonplace in the USA and reasonably priced and invariably come with a warranty - and a wide choice. I see the SBC's being discussed on my Chevy forum. The '383' gets a lot of attention - in standard GM form (a stroked 5.7 (350) Vortec) or Blueprint's version with significant power and torque gains - 400+ of each IIRC. What I don't see (not surprisingly) is the shipping cost to the UK...
That said, the V8s we have are very simple and (in the case of GM at least) plenty literature available ie, OEM workshop manuals. Deviation from the standard tune though can require significant recalibration. In the case of my Vortec that requires a later programmable ECU (which also controls the transmission) - with yours, carb and ignition timing. A loose boat engine doesn't sit well on a rolling road dyno!

Yours getting a health check for £60 sounds like a decent plan. By Monday you should know exactly what you have.

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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#67 Post by LPGC »

Heh, well that was quick! I wrote my last post then shifted a car from in front of the garage door, wheeled the engine outside, removed the dizzy and inlet manifold, removed both heads, removed the hydraulic tappets... all in like 20 minutes lol. I've spent since then having another bit of a look around it, taking pics (casting numbers etc) and arranging the pushrods and tappets in rows.

Some pics

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Block casting number
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Apparently F is the decade and points to 1990's, 1 is the year inside the decade so it's a 1991 block. I forget what the 3rd digit means, E means it's engine related (which it quite obviously is being an engine block).
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LPGC
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#68 Post by LPGC »

Underside of heads and casting numbers

Applying the same casting / year ID formula as for the block, both heads were made in 1993.
So the block was cast in '91 and the heads in '93 but apparently it's not unusual to have heads mated to blocks made a couple of years apart.
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#69 Post by LPGC »

Probably can't see it well in the pic but number 2 cylinder which is pictured 2nd from the right has some lateral scoring on the bore and I can see a break in the top ring (which isn't inline with the scoring but rings can spin around and a break in a ring at one side can cause scoring on another side of a cylinder bore)... But I don't know if I'm just looking at the ring gap. This is the cylinder that had by far the lowest compression at only 90psi and which was one of 2 cylinders that seemed to have some slap when at BDC when I looked the other day / first had the sump off.
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Full time LPG installer
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Pinger
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#70 Post by Pinger »

Without overhead cam(s) and drives, it's remarkable how quickly they can be torn down.
LPGC wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:33 pm Probably can't see it well in the pic but number 2 cylinder which is pictured 2nd from the right has some lateral scoring on the bore and I can see a break in the top ring (which isn't inline with the scoring but rings can spin around and a break in a ring at one side can cause scoring on another side of a cylinder bore)... But I don't know if I'm just looking at the ring gap. This is the cylinder that had by far the lowest compression at only 90psi and which was one of 2 cylinders that seemed to have some slap when at BDC when I looked the other day / first had the sump off.
Shattered rings a reasonable diagnosis at this point - you've possibly got that spot on.

But....
LPGC wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:33 pm Probably can't see it well in the pic but number 2 cylinder which is pictured 2nd from the right
....cylinder number 3 - surely!

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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#71 Post by LPGC »

Pinger wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:34 pm
Shattered rings a reasonable diagnosis at this point - you've possibly got that spot on.

But....
LPGC wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:33 pm Probably can't see it well in the pic but number 2 cylinder which is pictured 2nd from the right
....cylinder number 3 - surely!
The front of the engine is on the right, the engine stand is on the left in the pic, which means we're looking at the starboard cylinder bank. I believe old Ford cylinder numbers are 1>4 on startboard side and 5>8 on port side.

Unless you can see something wrong with a different cylinder?
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Re: Cast iron valve seats and LPG

#72 Post by Pinger »

LPGC wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:13 pm

The front of the engine is on the right, the engine stand is on the left in the pic, which means we're looking at the starboard cylinder bank. I believe old Ford cylinder numbers are 1>4 on startboard side and 5>8 on port side.
Ford are bucking the trend then where the cylinders are counted from the most forward cylinder (whichever side) in a criss cross fashion to the rearmost - as if working along the length of the crankshaft.

LPGC wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:13 pm Unless you can see something wrong with a different cylinder?
Nope!

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