Legislation, Associations etc. - Standalone/Custom systems?

[sijones]

Do I definitely need an E67 compliant ECU?

Most likely, but that's down to you.

Can I fit and certify parts from a manufacturer under which I was NOT trained under UKLPG rules?

Yes, although UKLPG market as you can't. I do DIY conversions and then have them certified by someone else, and they won't be trained in the system I installed.

In the majority of vapourisers, is the gas vapourised before being metered or after?

In a vapour injection system, the injectors are metering vapour, therefore it's after the vap it's metered.

The exception is liquid injection where there is no vap.

[munkle]

Do I definitely need an E67 compliant ECU?

Most likely, but that's down to you.

Can I fit and certify parts from a manufacturer under which I was NOT trained under UKLPG rules?

Yes, although UKLPG market as you can't. I do DIY conversions and then have them certified by someone else, and they won't be trained in the system I installed.

In the majority of vapourisers, is the gas vapourised before being metered or after?

In a vapour injection system, the injectors are metering vapour, therefore it's after the vap it's metered.

The exception is liquid injection where there is no vap.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm trying to get my head around fuel surge on a vapour injection setup but I've yet to open up a vapour injection vapouriser. I presume it's regulated as a gas so fuel surge shouldn't be able to happen?

The thing that puts me off liquid injection is that I've not seen any tanks with baffles. Since that's a part I can't make/modify or otherwise, it would surely suffer with fuel surge quite easily and not be suitable for anyone who drives enthusiastically or with forced inducation?

[sijones]

I'm not trolling. I'm not picking fights, I'm trying to get people to speak up on the issue that - by the looks of the debate we've just had, isn't discussed much around here - in an "LPG discussion forum".

We discuss issues, not a problem.

Maybe you should rename it to "LPG Technical Support Forum" so 'trolls' like me don't get the wrong idea?

May be we should, but it's not my forum.

Perhaps I got a little frustrated and for that I apologise if I caused any offence.

Try understanding that this site helps people with normal every day lpg issues, installs and fault finding. Most don't have any interest in performance lpg etc etc.

You have had opinions from installers / inspectors on what they look for, you can choose to take the advice or leave it.
Perhaps tho, get yourself UKLPG certified and you can sign off all your own work as safe......

[sijones]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm trying to get my head around fuel surge on a vapour injection setup but I've yet to open up a vapour injection vapouriser. I presume it's regulated as a gas so fuel surge shouldn't be able to happen?

The thing that puts me off liquid injection is that I've not seen any tanks with baffles. Since that's a part I can't make/modify or otherwise, it would surely suffer with fuel surge quite easily and not be suitable for anyone who drives enthusiastically or with forced inducation?

Sorry, am a DIY'er so have no idea how the vap regulates or where abouts.

I assume tho, because the tank is under high pressure any way that you can't get a surge and that's why baffles ain't required. But before anyone blasts, that is just my logic in my head.

[munkle]

You have had opinions from installers / inspectors on what they look for, you can choose to take the advice or leave it.
Perhaps tho, get yourself UKLPG certified and you can sign off all your own work as safe......

Your last point was one of my concerns.

It's safe to say then that if I go through the rigmorole of being UKLPG certified I can certify my own work so long as I deem it safe and not suffer any repercussions? I don't want to spend a grand on becoming certified only to do wrong and have the approval revoked.

Maybe I'm reading what they say too literally?

I presume having the premises approved is a strict requirement?

[munkle]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm trying to get my head around fuel surge on a vapour injection setup but I've yet to open up a vapour injection vapouriser. I presume it's regulated as a gas so fuel surge shouldn't be able to happen?

The thing that puts me off liquid injection is that I've not seen any tanks with baffles. Since that's a part I can't make/modify or otherwise, it would surely suffer with fuel surge quite easily and not be suitable for anyone who drives enthusiastically or with forced inducation?

Sorry, am a DIY'er so have no idea how the vap regulates or where abouts.

I assume tho, because the tank is under high pressure any way that you can't get a surge and that's why baffles ain't required. But before anyone blasts, that is just my logic in my head.

Why would anyone blast?

Thinking about it, it would have to be regulated as a liquid wouldn't it? You won't get a gas until the pressure is dropped anyway, which requires a regulator.

The liquid will have different flow properties to the gas though. Surely it matters?

[sijones]

It's safe to say then that if I go through the rigmorole of being UKLPG certified I can certify my own work so long as I deem it safe and not suffer any repercussions? I don't want to spend a grand on becoming certified only to do wrong and have the approval revoked.

Being UKLPG certified and signing your own work off is always going to leave you open to liability claims, using type approved equipment limits your liability to a smaller opening, using own made parts makes you a bigger target. It's all about risk, and if your insurance will cover and indemnify you.

[mat_fenwick]

My 2p, as a DIYer and not installer. I'm interested in this thread from the point of view of whether what munkle wants to do can be done; it's also an fascinating, (in the main) well reasoned discussion and I personally think it's a bit harsh to label someone a troll although I can see why frustrations were running high. I'm unlikely to ever be involved with a LPG track car, but that doesn't mean I don't want to read about it.

One other thing - I wouldn't want an LPG only car for the road, at least not living in this country. It's not uncommon for a station to be out of gas, stopped selling gas or have a problem with the (only) LPG pump available. If the filling infrastructure was as good, or even half as good as petrol I would consider it as I have never switched back to petrol out of choice.

[munkle]

It's safe to say then that if I go through the rigmorole of being UKLPG certified I can certify my own work so long as I deem it safe and not suffer any repercussions? I don't want to spend a grand on becoming certified only to do wrong and have the approval revoked.

Being UKLPG certified and signing your own work off is always going to leave you open to liability claims, using type approved equipment limits your liability to a smaller opening, using own made parts makes you a bigger target. It's all about risk, and if your insurance will cover and indemnify you.

That's one way of putting it. I'm potentially liable with petrol I suppose, however it's very uncommon to hear of anyone end up in deep water - I think wheels falling off are the only common cases...and that's usually the apprentices fault.

As much as anything, I wanted this debate to make sure I wasn't missing a safety aspect of doing something like this. It's just convinced me that the risks are very low. I'm not trying to convince other people as much as convince myself. I don't want any accidents.

[munkle]

My 2p, as a DIYer and not installer. I'm interested in this thread from the point of view of whether what munkle wants to do can be done; it's also an fascinating, (in the main) well reasoned discussion and I personally think it's a bit harsh to label someone a troll although I can see why frustrations were running high. I'm unlikely to ever be involved with a LPG track car, but that doesn't mean I don't want to read about it.

One other thing - I wouldn't want an LPG only car for the road, at least not living in this country. It's not uncommon for a station to be out of gas, stopped selling gas or have a problem with the (only) LPG pump available. If the filling infrastructure was as good, or even half as good as petrol I would consider it as I have never switched back to petrol out of choice.

Thanks, I knew there would be someone interested somewhere.

I think the likelihood of whether someone would deem it practical depends on their own area.

In my area, there are 4 LPG stations within a 7 minute drive. One is an ASDA supermarket which is a very popular filling station. It has 4 LPG pumps which are in regular use. It's entirely feasible to run LPG only around here and I'm quite happy to do so. I think people who live in such an area will be willing to go down that route and rely on sat nav for fuelling while travelling in exchange for 100+ octane fuel, 72p/litre fill ups and something a bit different on their car. I'm not trying to convert the world, but there is, or would be, a calling for it if people had the information and the capability.

I completely understand that in some parts of the country, it would be a PITA to run LPG only.

I know a bunch of people who moan at me about the price of V Power. They daren't fill up with anything else because they're running 30psi of boost or 12:1 CR for their StreetCar drag event or simply for pub talk.

LPG has a place on enthusiast cars in quite a few different ways. I'd love to a see a 500 horse Turbo Technics Capri running gas, or an 700 horse Naturally Aspirated Jensen Interceptor in the mags with two neatly installed bottled in the back.

It's my kinda thing, and I'm not alone.

I just think it would be cool if that were made possible.

[sijones]

That's one way of putting it. I'm potentially liable with petrol I suppose, however it's very uncommon to hear of anyone end up in deep water - I think wheels falling off are the only common cases...and that's usually the apprentices fault.

As much as anything, I wanted this debate to make sure I wasn't missing a safety aspect of doing something like this. It's just convinced me that the risks are very low. I'm not trying to convince other people as much as convince myself. I don't want any accidents.

I believe personally lpg is safer anyway, a tank that can withstand and incredible amount of impact, with a pressure release system built in, lpg isn't going to sit and pool, so in the event of an accident most likely blow away in the wind etc.

It is yourself that has to be happy with the work, UKLPG means nothing really, my insurance (Adrian Flux modified car insurance) takes my cars without certs, am sure track / performance insurance being a modified car would be the same, just got to comply with the extra regs of sport etc.

And if you make your own parts, have paperwork and design specs to back yourself up in the event of a claim.

A friend of mine does motor racing and makes parts, steering, suspension, brackets all for himself and others... But he's a qualified engineer with all sorts of knowledge to back himself up in the case of a claim! and liability insurance.

[rossko]

(re K-jet) I used them as an example of why a standalone system would be useful

Alright, understood. Let's put it this way, it was a relevant question for all LPG installers ten years ago. It just isn't nowadays.
Fifteen years ago, there was no choice but to use mixer systems. Proper experts could tickle them to be successful in many cases. 'Temperamental' is perhaps the kindest thing to say.
Ten years ago, you could get first-gen multipoint systems that could deal with it. They are no more, the world has moved on. You would not class those as 'performance' systems either. Bear in mind such engines are not festooned with sensors like modern engines, this makes it technically difficult/expensive to make aftermarket EFI, as you well know.

We really, really do not have a queue of customers with twenty year old cars for conversion, neither it seems does anyone else in Europe.

I just want to replace a single part of an injection kit - the ECU - with one from a different manufacturer so that I can take advantages of the additional features and install it in a more professional way than a piggyback.

I can see no technical objections to piggyback, but that's your choice. You have made the rod for your own back.
Retaining the manufacturer's non-fuelling management is the preferred option (only practical option?) for a road car. It would be a bit silly to take out a perfectly functional ignition system, never mind the other gubbins. I rather suspect there are rules for us about destroying the car's existing emissions control features too, but you should know more about that than me. It would certainly be unprofessional for me, but I appreciate your case is different.

Those who do want LPG only start a base vehicle that comes with EFI already simply because they have no choice.

Yes. That is the market for LPG manufacturers and installers. E-something else forces people to adopt emissions standards, OBD, blah, in the ordinary world.

We very, very rarely get enquiries for LPG-only. LPG-only buses, dustcarts, forklifts, go-karts are common, of course it can be done. It can be done in your case, but you don't like the obvious answer.

It's quite common in a lot of asian countries I've visited.

Absolutely, but they mostly run the mixers you reject.

I believe NZ run most of their taxi fleet on gas.

You might be suprised to find NZ has a much fiercer approval system than we do. You would not be permitted to do LPG work 'unapproved' at all. Yes, it's not E-marked, NZ and Oz run their own marking scheme.
See above for how to easily convert a modern car to LPG only - use piggyback.

How many people here never switch to petrol?

Doesn't matter, the car came with an petrol system. If they really want to delete the plumbing and tank, it can be done.

Are you absolutely sure an ECU needs an E67 approval?

I think so, Marek thinks so.

I really have thought about this on your behalf, and I am interpreting the intent of E67 - which is that the safety gas shutoff mechanism (e.g. stall) needs to be E67. As said before, I believe that if you have an E-marked controlling element to carry out the functions that E67 requires, you should be okay. I would want to do more homework before commiting that's a consultancy to you
On a real carb car, that would be the "safety relay" (well, and the wiring and solenoids associated with it). The switch on the dash and so on is irrelevant.
I would pass a homebrew ECU so long as there is an E-marked safety relay properly installed so as to override it. I would certainly want to verify it works.
Caution - I am not a lawyer or rule-setter, this is my opinion, more homework required.

You may have to persuade another inspector to follow that reasoning, because we just do not come across your odd requirement.

Would you pass a system of a mish-mash of components?

Sure. This is what most Polish originated systems look like. I will pass an elderly install, which due to repairs have acquired different bits from different sources.

I've heard one thing from UKLPG and one thing from you. I still don't know who to believe!

[/quote]
Frustrating, I can't help with that.

[munkle]

That's one way of putting it. I'm potentially liable with petrol I suppose, however it's very uncommon to hear of anyone end up in deep water - I think wheels falling off are the only common cases...and that's usually the apprentices fault.

As much as anything, I wanted this debate to make sure I wasn't missing a safety aspect of doing something like this. It's just convinced me that the risks are very low. I'm not trying to convince other people as much as convince myself. I don't want any accidents.

I believe personally lpg is safer anyway, a tank that can withstand and incredible amount of impact, with a pressure release system built in, lpg isn't going to sit and pool, so in the event of an accident most likely blow away in the wind etc.

It is yourself that has to be happy with the work, UKLPG means nothing really, my insurance (Adrian Flux modified car insurance) takes my cars without certs, am sure track / performance insurance being a modified car would be the same, just got to comply with the extra regs of sport etc.

And if you make your own parts, have paperwork and design specs to back yourself up in the event of a claim.

A friend of mine does motor racing and makes parts, steering, suspension, brackets all for himself and others... But he's a qualified engineer with all sorts of knowledge to back himself up in the case of a claim! and liability insurance.

Yes Flux didn't request a certificate from us either, but our cars have been on the register so I didn't know if that was why?

[munkle]

I know my requirements are unsual to you, but they are real and have a basis which, while strange, is more common than you may think.

Dual fuel cars are heavily compromised and not of interest from a performance point of view. By switching to LPG only you can raise compression - or boost pressure - quite substantially, run a cam with a wider overlap as a result of higher compression, adjust timing to be much more suited to the slow flame speed of LPG (the only real downside to LPG as a fuel, although it doesn't offset the advantage of the higher octane rating). You can then remove the fuel pump, petrol tank, evaporative emissions system (if fitted), any cold start injectors, any carbs, run a fractionally tighter quench and ports polished to perfection. You can also optimise the combustion chamber, though that's more to suit the fuel than for any performance/efficiency increase.
You can have a car of a similar weight but with more power using a much cheaper fuel.

Having higher compression not only increases power, but fuel economy is actually improved. A true LPG car will not only use cheaper fuel, but be more economical than petrol. For every point of compression, some engines improve economy by well over 5%. Going from 8:1 to 12:1 is 20% increase in economy. I'm not even at the top end of the scale there. Some are nearly 10% per point of CR. (if you want me to explain in detail, I'm happy to).

On a carb'd car you can lose a substantial intake restriction and gain the advantage you would see with switching to EFI on top of the above gains!

You have to remember, there are thousands of cars out there that run around with absolutely no interior, rock hard suspension with very little travel, can't go over speed bumps and do 5mpg. The people must want this because they pay good money for it. They/we may be mad, but it's what we love and some of us are waiting for someone to tell us about LPG.

I honestly believe it.

Just a sidenote...The MSA must allow LPG since Vauxhall ran and LPG vectra in BTCC, I believe.

[rossko]

Can I fit and certify parts from a manufacturer under which I was NOT trained under UKLPG rules?

My opinion, no.
You can of course become a 'kit manufacterer' as well and approve yourself with your installers hat on - this is essentially what you are asking to do.
UKLPG (and the law) would then require you to produce and mark to E67 ...

But really it depends on what you mean by 'parts'. We routinely fit say, valves from OMB along with a 'kit' from some other supplier, I shouldn't think anyone has OMB training. It'll be a matter of opinion what "brand" you call a collection of parts, but the common approach is to view the ECU as the host or primary part. So, still 'no' in your case.

A reminder that installation is not the same as certification. UKLPG installers are being encouraged to maintain professional standards, and not fit stuff they have no clue about. Sell effective conversions.
Certification for safety (not effectiveness) is different.

I presume it's regulated as a gas so fuel surge shouldn't be able to happen?

On a vapour system, you do get a sort of inertia effect I suppose you might call surge, due to the mechanics. Welly it, the pressure droops, cutoff and it overshoots a bit. The effect gets worse as you approach the throughput limits of the regulator - solution, get a bigger one. Modern systems have rail pressure sensors and can compensate for that some, although early ones happily got away without (there are other benefits to having a sensor though).

The thing that puts me off liquid injection is that I've not seen any tanks with baffles.

Nor will you see tanks in vapour systems baffled, slosh can be a problem there too and the effects are dramatic. Choice of tank format and siting minimises. Where cost is no object I've seen tank manufacturers offer custom baffling, can't remember who, WVM maybe?

[sijones]

Yes, MSA does allow LPG, it's just there is a couple of regs on it, that's all.

Be careful with insurance companies, they may fail to inform you a cert by UKLPG is required and won't pay out in the event of accident as your not compilant etc, this is a bit of a contentious point.

If your still with Flux check with them about the cert, some of there underwriters require a cert some don't, am with highway and they don't require one, may suggest that you get flux next time to go with them if they are cheap for you.

[munkle]

Can I fit and certify parts from a manufacturer under which I was NOT trained under UKLPG rules?

My opinion, no.
You can of course become a 'kit manufacterer' as well and approve yourself with your installers hat on - this is essentially what you are asking to do.
UKLPG (and the law) would then require you to produce and mark to E67 ...

But really it depends on what you mean by 'parts'. We routinely fit say, valves from OMB along with a 'kit' from some other supplier, I shouldn't think anyone has OMB training. It'll be a matter of opinion what "brand" you call a collection of parts, but the common approach is to view the ECU as the host or primary part. So, still 'no' in your case.

A reminder that installation is not the same as certification. UKLPG installers are being encouraged to maintain professional standards, and not fit stuff they have no clue about. Sell effective conversions.
Certification for safety (not effectiveness) is different.

I presume it's regulated as a gas so fuel surge shouldn't be able to happen?

On a vapour system, you do get a sort of inertia effect I suppose you might call surge, due to the mechanics. Welly it, the pressure droops, cutoff and it overshoots a bit. The effect gets worse as you approach the throughput limits of the regulator - solution, get a bigger one. Modern systems have rail pressure sensors and can compensate for that some, although early ones happily got away without (there are other benefits to having a sensor though).

The thing that puts me off liquid injection is that I've not seen any tanks with baffles.

Nor will you see tanks in vapour systems baffled, slosh can be a problem there too and the effects are dramatic. Choice of tank format and siting minimises. Where cost is no object I've seen tank manufacturers offer custom baffling, can't remember who, WVM maybe?

I see, so it is an issue. I presume a couple of small tanks will be a much better approach than a single large one then? I would have to test it and see.

I think some of the 'surge' in mixture comes from the lateral forces on the vapouriser mechanism?
Does that sound feasible?

That could be a nice design feature in a custom ECU - accelerometers are very cheap these days and a simple circuit could input the readings of one into an ECU for something like a 'lateral load trim'. As long as it doesn't use up a great deal of room in the injector duty cycle it would work a treat.

[rossko]

You can have a car of a similar weight but with more power using a much cheaper fuel.

And all easily acheived with easily certified piggyback systems.

Just a sidenote...The MSA must allow LPG since Vauxhall ran and LPG vectra in BTCC, I believe.

No-one said they didn't, you were the one laughing at the concept that anyone has done performance LPG before. I keep hinting you should find out what, if anything, the scrutineers look for ....

I think some of the 'surge' in mixture comes from the lateral forces on the vapouriser mechanism?

No, you are mixing information about different technologies. That applies to mixer systems.

That could be a nice design feature in a custom ECU - accelerometers are very cheap these days and a simple circuit could input the readings of one into an ECU for something like a 'lateral load trim'.

Err, even if that were required why wouldn't you use a pressure sensor like everyone else?

[munkle]

You can have a car of a similar weight but with more power using a much cheaper fuel.

And all easily acheived with easily certified piggyback systems.

LPG only with piggyback systems? Kind of. You keep forgetting that not all cars have EFI to begin with.
Piggybacking an ECU is a little bit of a bodge. It's one that makes sense on a dual fuel car, but in any other case it's not the way it should be done. It's overcomplication and duplication. More to go wrong and probably gives less control.

It may be that it's a necessity to get certified, but it is a bit unprofessional. It's like hacking in a thatcham alarm. A manufacturer would have built in to the loom - not soldered then covered with some heatshrink. lol. I suppose we could do it neatly enough, but it would be so much nice to have it all integrated as part of one system.

On a car without EFI, I'd have to install an EFI system (which I would anyway, granted), then add the piggy back on top of that. If it's the only way then for some cars it's probably acceptable. If I can't get round it, I'll have to do it...again I'd rather have one ECU doing exactly what I ask of it. I'm perhaps being a bit of a perfectionist with it, but some cars just have to be perfect.

Just a sidenote...The MSA must allow LPG since Vauxhall ran an LPG vectra in BTCC, I believe.

No-one said they didn't, you were the one laughing at the concept that anyone has done performance LPG before. I keep hinting you should find out what, if anything, the scrutineers look for ....

I was just saying...
Sheesh.

And I wasn't saying that nobody had done LPG performance before, not in the slightest. I was laughing at the notion that just because an LPG kit is fitted to a performance car, doesn't mean it's a performance LPG kit. It's just an LPG kit, plain and simple.
I am being pedantic, but we're both guilty of that.

I think some of the 'surge' in mixture comes from the lateral forces on the vapouriser mechanism?

No, you are mixing information about different technologies. That applies to mixer systems.

Possibly, do the injection system vapourisers not have to be mounted in a specific orientation? don't they have components inside that are affected by lateral g force? Genuine question before you have a fit.

That could be a nice design feature in a custom ECU - accelerometers are very cheap these days and a simple circuit could input the readings of one into an ECU for something like a 'lateral load trim'.

Err, even if that were required why wouldn't you use a pressure sensor like everyone else?

Ignore me, I was thinking out loud of a problem that's solved, as you say, with a pressure sensor. It was a brain fart, if you will. Probably because I've just been looking up accelerometers for something else.

[munkle]

Lets stop the bickering then...I've got two options for an LPG ONLY non-EFI car.

Build up my own system with an ECU of my choice, run some kind of (sketchily understood) risk with the law but have a neat, perfect layout.

OR

Fit the ecu of my choice but use a standard LPG system piggy-backed over the top of it....less neat but more legal and insurable.


I suppose the latter sounds more realistic, if less ideal.

How many systems will let me pick up off the injectors instead of using OBD? as most aftermarket ECUs (I want to adjust both fuel and ignition maps remember) don't provide OBD.
I also have to have the option to not run petrol at all on the piggy back. Starting has to be configured to LPG starts only.
Lambda needs to feed back to the petrol ECU too, and I would need the piggyback ECU to be plenty quick, though I suspect that's not an issue.

Can I add another injector rail if I can't find injectors up to the task? It's modifying the original system I know, but it may be necessary if I'm a bit restricted in what I can change.