LPG Discussion Forum

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:21 pm**

RobTheShirt wrote: I don't drive my car to the limits so I don't know what would happen at the 'top end' nor do I care. I've always kept tight records of my fuel usage and the spreadsheet that I devised shows me that my fuel costs are around 55-60% of what it would be costing me unconverted and I'm more than happy with that.
I realise that you'll all be thinking I'm a friend of his but in truth, I only met him on that one day and have had no contact since. I also realise that some of you will be trotting out the horror stories about what has gone wrong in rebuttal.
My only regret now is that I didn't go to Gilbert instead. If only I could save 3 or 4 hundred pounds in just a few tank fulls I'd be a really happy bunny as I guess you all would! lol. I've always respected Gilberts knowledge and advice given on this forum but might I suggest that this was just a teensy weensy bit of an exaggeration :roll:

Let's get a few things straight, I'm not an installer, like you, I'm an LPG user. But I am a professional engineer (with letters after my name should I choose to use them) and consider that if a job is worth doing, it's worth spending a bit more time and care and doing it properly. I currently own two LPG cars and had another before. All three were bought ready converted but I wasn't happy with the standards of any of them. So, I ripped it out and put it back in again properly.

As for my comment on savings, I'll stand by them as I use my cars and make them work too. A tank of petrol is over £100 compared with a tank of gas at £45. As I go through at least a tankfull a week, that's not long to recover 300 quid. As for top end performance, the last long run I did in the P38 involved towing a fully loaded 3.5 tonne car transporter trailer from Cambridgeshire to the South of France, loading a different car on the trailer and towing that into Italy, then over the Alps through Switzerland and into Germany to drop the car off. The rest of the journey was done with an empty trailer. On that 4 day trip, I used 14 tankfulls of LPG and when slogging up the Alps, I was running at almost full throttle for miles on end. Any inadequacies in the fuelling system would have been shown up by either not being able to get up the hills or cooking the engine due to it running lean.

However, driving a run of the mill car gently isn't going to show up any shortcomings, so you are perfectly happy with your conversion. I doubt I would be happy with the standard of your conversion (having seen the gallery on the Profess website, I wouldn't be happy with a lot of them) but if it does what you want it to do and doesn't look like some of the ones shown on this, and other, threads, then I can understand why you think people are being unfair. It's when people have more complex cars converted using the same kit fitted in a rush that I feel that they do not do themselves any favours.

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:31 pm**

RobTheShirt wrote:
andy evans autogas wrote:.....oooopsss someone doesent like me saying that.....wonder why!!!!!!!
I'm quite happy to tell you why. I'm just an end user who had my Grand Scenic converted by Profess Autogas in South Wales a couple of years ago. I just get ticked off with people who come on here and slag off a perfectly respectable and professional operator.
I fully understand why some of you do it. When I was looking around, the best price I could find was £1800 and that was for the 4 day job. Andy's crew did it in one day for a grand with 4 guys working more or less simultaneously using a production line method. Ever heard of it? They use it to build cars.
Now quite a few of the £1800+ 'rip-off' guys were unhappy that their little bubble had been burst and that they were forced to charge a lower price in order to compete so they decided to spread malicious rumours about quality of the fit to scare their potential customers into accepting their 'still' bloated quotes. UKLPGA even refused to licence them because they were undercutting their members.
I have never had the slightest problem with my conversion but a half hour in Andy's company whilst I was waiting for the conversion to finish convinced me that I was dealing with an honest person and that I would have immediate back up if I had any problems.
I don't drive my car to the limits so I don't know what would happen at the 'top end' nor do I care. I've always kept tight records of my fuel usage and the spreadsheet that I devised shows me that my fuel costs are around 55-60% of what it would be costing me unconverted and I'm more than happy with that.
I realise that you'll all be thinking I'm a friend of his but in truth, I only met him on that one day and have had no contact since. I also realise that some of you will be trotting out the horror stories about what has gone wrong in rebuttal.
My only regret now is that I didn't go to Gilbert instead. If only I could save 3 or 4 hundred pounds in just a few tank fulls I'd be a really happy bunny as I guess you all would! lol. I've always respected Gilberts knowledge and advice given on this forum but might I suggest that this was just a teensy weensy bit of an exaggeration

Not me, but another Omega owner called Profess and asked one question: "Will you remove the ally inlet manifold from my V6 Omega to drill and fit the nozzles?" The answer was: "No, we don't need to because there will be no swarf enter the engine when we use the Vacuum drill"

That was enough for me

It's near on impossible to get the nozzles close to the petrol injectors without moving the manifold and, more importantly, no matter what you do there will be swarf dropping into the manifold. On a plastic one you can probably get away with it (although I wouldn't want to chance it), but with a metal inlet I would never risk it.

I'm not perfect, and don't claim to be, but I also agree that there is a huge range of installation standards. This is why I think it should all be inspected by a totally independent body that does nothing but inspections. Not even remedial work to get them through. That way they have no vested interest whatsoever and all installations, professional and DIY, will have to meet/exceed the same standards

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:32 am**

Not all professional installers are UKLPG approved, there are a growing number that are not approved. I chose to leave the so called umbrella of the LPGA, mainly due to the fact that they offered no backup for installer or customer and only wanted to take my money.

I agree that the manifold on the omega's does have to come off to allow placement of the nozzles, and I have put a fair few right that have had the nozzles in the top.

Robtheshirt, what car was it you had done? as said, some cars can quite easily be done in a day, I agree that it does seem as if the installers on here are just getting at Proffes because of their pricing strategy, but I, as have many other installers on here, have had to put right a fair number of vehicles that looked shoddy and wouldn't run correctly. Did you get the car certified and put on the register for the £1000, I thought they charged extra for that.

As for drilling the manifold while in situ, this will cause no problems whatsoever be it plastic or aluminium, the "swarf" will vapourise instantly when the vehicle is fired up. I agree it is not good practice and removing the manifold is a lot better and I remove all of mine when doing a conversion. I know from experience though that it causes no damage. my own vectra was drilled in situ, so was my 3.2 frontera. I have also spoken to a major supplier who installs as well and they also drill while in situ (whether it is all or some I don't know), but it does go to show that the myth of drilling in situ is just that, a myth. The reason I take all mine off is if a drill bit or a tap has a problem, then that going down the tubes will cause a problem.

Most installers on here have drilled in situ at some point, they just wont say so due the myth of it causing problems

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:48 am**

My main worry with Profess (and by their nature, anyone whose selling point is speed of conversion) is the back up IF something goes wrong, or isn't quite right to start with. It's how problems are dealt with that separates out good companies from the bad...

Two recent examples on here - one guy with a Chevy Astro van single point system not connected to the lambda sensor and MIL on. Also Dai Fish with his Frontera - injector problems shortly after installation were blamed on poor quality gas rather than the heavy ends built up in them due to horizontal orientation, plus a separate problem with the MIL coming on (although to be fair, the last we heard they were trying to sort that).

But, a handful of examples don't prove a point either way, and the fact that an installer is a member on here doesn't necessarily mean they'll do a good job. I've found this to my cost previously, although the installer in question appears to be no longer active.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:46 am**

I agree, Profess have done a vast number of conversions and by the very nature of this forum you only see the problematic ones on here.

If you took the number of conversions they have done and then looked at the problems or complaints they would probably show a pretty high percentage of happy customers.

Don't get me wrong, they are not the tidiest conversions at times, but if they are running correctly no-one is going to be any the wiser as they probably wouldn't even look under the bonnet.

If an new installer does 3 conversions and one of his cutomers is not happy, that is 33% of is customers that are not satisfied.
If a company does 1000 conversions and gets 50 complaints thats 5% of his customers that are not satisfied.

At the end of the days as has been said many times, you pay your money and take a chance

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:37 am**

mat_fenwick wrote: Also Dai Fish with his Frontera - injector problems shortly after installation were blamed on poor quality gas rather than the heavy ends built up in them due to horizontal orientation, plus a separate problem with the MIL coming on (although to be fair, the last we heard they were trying to sort that).

I'm sure they will sort it... If he were closer to me I'd be willing to help out, although the installer has to be given the opportunity to fix it, as it is (essentially) the same conversion as in my Omega.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:16 pm**

Its a completeley different conversion to your omega as the engines are completeley different, one is a GM engine the other is Isuzu. The frontera is a lot easier to install than the Omega though

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:41 pm**

tommo2009 wrote:Its a completeley different conversion to your omega as the engines are completeley different, one is a GM engine the other is Isuzu. The frontera is a lot easier to install than the Omega though

The 3.2 Frontera in question is definitely Vx engine, or the other 3.2's I've seen were

But, even if Isuzu, I'd be willing to bet I'd get it running right fairly easily even if I had to re-install the front end

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:04 pm**

lazydocker wrote:
RobTheShirt wrote:
andy evans autogas wrote:.....oooopsss someone doesent like me saying that.....wonder why!!!!!!!
I'm quite happy to tell you why. I'm just an end user who had my Grand Scenic converted by Profess Autogas in South Wales a couple of years ago. I just get ticked off with people who come on here and slag off a perfectly respectable and professional operator.
I fully understand why some of you do it. When I was looking around, the best price I could find was £1800 and that was for the 4 day job. Andy's crew did it in one day for a grand with 4 guys working more or less simultaneously using a production line method. Ever heard of it? They use it to build cars.
Now quite a few of the £1800+ 'rip-off' guys were unhappy that their little bubble had been burst and that they were forced to charge a lower price in order to compete so they decided to spread malicious rumours about quality of the fit to scare their potential customers into accepting their 'still' bloated quotes. UKLPGA even refused to licence them because they were undercutting their members.
I have never had the slightest problem with my conversion but a half hour in Andy's company whilst I was waiting for the conversion to finish convinced me that I was dealing with an honest person and that I would have immediate back up if I had any problems.
I don't drive my car to the limits so I don't know what would happen at the 'top end' nor do I care. I've always kept tight records of my fuel usage and the spreadsheet that I devised shows me that my fuel costs are around 55-60% of what it would be costing me unconverted and I'm more than happy with that.
I realise that you'll all be thinking I'm a friend of his but in truth, I only met him on that one day and have had no contact since. I also realise that some of you will be trotting out the horror stories about what has gone wrong in rebuttal.
My only regret now is that I didn't go to Gilbert instead. If only I could save 3 or 4 hundred pounds in just a few tank fulls I'd be a really happy bunny as I guess you all would! lol. I've always respected Gilberts knowledge and advice given on this forum but might I suggest that this was just a teensy weensy bit of an exaggeration
Not me, but another Omega owner called Profess and asked one question: "Will you remove the ally inlet manifold from my V6 Omega to drill and fit the nozzles?" The answer was: "No, we don't need to because there will be no swarf enter the engine when we use the Vacuum drill"

That was enough for me It's near on impossible to get the nozzles close to the petrol injectors without moving the manifold and, more importantly, no matter what you do there will be swarf dropping into the manifold. On a plastic one you can probably get away with it (although I wouldn't want to chance it), but with a metal inlet I would never risk it.

Didn't Go LPG do that to the poor bugger on the lpg info site?

Cheers.

Nige.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:22 pm**

N_Willmott wrote:
lazydocker wrote: Not me, but another Omega owner called Profess and asked one question: "Will you remove the ally inlet manifold from my V6 Omega to drill and fit the nozzles?" The answer was: "No, we don't need to because there will be no swarf enter the engine when we use the Vacuum drill"

That was enough for me It's near on impossible to get the nozzles close to the petrol injectors without moving the manifold and, more importantly, no matter what you do there will be swarf dropping into the manifold. On a plastic one you can probably get away with it (although I wouldn't want to chance it), but with a metal inlet I would never risk it.
Didn't Go LPG do that to the poor bugger on the lpg info site?

Cheers.

Nige.

Not sure who did that, although I do know the car you are referring to

It has since been re-fitted onto another vehicle. Straws through the top of the plenum and very untidy IMHO, although it does seem to run OK

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:38 pm**

Lazydocker - the 3.2 frontera's are all isuzu, Vauxhall didn't not make the frontera's, they rebadged them. the 2.0 was a gm engine ut the 3.2 was 100% Isuzu

They are a doddle to convert though

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:31 pm**

tommo2009 wrote:Lazydocker - the 3.2 frontera's are all isuzu, Vauxhall didn't not make the frontera's, they rebadged them. the 2.0 was a gm engine ut the 3.2 was 100% Isuzu

They are a doddle to convert though

My mistake... Just a bit confused

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:19 pm**

Hi it's def an Isuzu engine.

N_Willmott I would be interested in hearing what Andy told you to see if it was the same as what he told me about the problems he had had with other installers, he is a nice guy to talk to and really does talk a good job and has been good with me each time I have gone back there, with the problems I have had recently he worked very hard to try and solve the issues I had even after he was convinced there was a problem with the car and not the LPG and am sure he will be the same anytime I have to go back there.

But would I recommend anyone to go there for a conversion the answer would be NO there are a number of things that happened faults with fitting and basic bullshite about why things were done the way they were, things I have never mentioned on here, that would go against the merits of your production line theory, I have said in another thread I did check them out as best I thought I could do and found good reports and that in my opinion he had taken on to much work to be able to maintain standards, but that aside, he is a nice guy to talk to and I have spent quite a few hours in his company, and actually watched for a few hours while they were doing a conversion.

Dai

Posted: **Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:11 pm**

I've got another done in a day job booked in tomorrow for rectification the customer says its been in a couple of years I'll get the camera ready !!!!!!!!

Posted: **Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:39 pm**

It has come to my attention that it may be unfair to enlighten people to the quality of work of some installers I realise there is a special section (new image gallery)bodged conversions for people who would like to view. WARNING IT CONTAINS SHOCKING IMAGES http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/gallery/index.php

Posted: **Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:55 am**

Its not unfair to enlighten people, was is unfair is to put out information that may not necessarily be accurate.

Before enlightening people about the shoddy workmanship of a conversion, do your homework and find out if the car has had any work done on since it has been converted.
If no work has been carried out and the conversion is poor then enlighten people.

This forum is designed to help people out, but as of late it just seems to be about bad mouthing certain installers. A person is given the choice of where he wants to go to get a conversion done, in todays market cheapest will usually win, this is not necessarily a good thing but some of the cheaper installers out there (Tubbs springs to mind) do a good job and get good feedback.

Lets start a new gallery and put in our own pictures of cars we have converted, I will quite happily put mine up. that would allow people to look at some of the jobs some of us have done and may give them an insight into the quality of the work.

Posted: **Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:07 am**

tommo2009 wrote:Lets start a new gallery and put in our own pictures of cars we have converted, I will quite happily put mine up. that would allow people to look at some of the jobs some of us have done and may give them an insight into the quality of the work.

tbh im surprised installers have'nt done that already (advertising their workmanship), Tubbs did a thread where he done a supra a month or so ago with pics that i enjoyed, rather than show the finished product you can do it at different stages, before, during and after, only takes a sec to get a pic, it may even help installers (pro AND diy) to see how others route pipes/hoses, place injectors etc.

Posted: **Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:00 am**

tommo2009 wrote:Lets start a new gallery and put in our own pictures of cars we have converted, I will quite happily put mine up. that would allow people to look at some of the jobs some of us have done and may give them an insight into the quality of the work.

That's a good idea, something constructive.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:50 pm**

I don't recommend this firm either, shoddy installation and poor standard of components used. On inspection by a registered installer this work was found to be way below industry standards, paid for an upgrade and the differences were obvious in the first few days. Called Trading Standards and your position is hopeless, the original installer did not want to know either. Stay well clear is the best advice.

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