UKLPG want to keep my LPGA certificate.

[rossko]

This is just an anger fuelled word game. I've no idea how "one of the aims" becomes "sole aim" becomes "admitting ... a closed shop", or how "maintenance and repair" has anything to do with "getting insurance", all too sophisticated for me.

Here's the deal ; you decided UKLPG are a cartel of pirates years ago, fine. Nevertheless, they have created something you want, apparently. You'll need to come up with a better case for them than "no fair, I want a go too" if you want them to listen to you.

----

I'm at a loss why its all so difficult and emotional. Why is this worse than when non-members couldn't issue LPGA paper certificates?
Let's invent a free-spirited installer ; his work far surpasses any UKLPG cutthroat, and all done on his front lawn. His reputation brings more customers than he can handle. He can printoff certificates saying whatever he likes. Everyone's happy.
Sometimes, a more naive customer will get confused and misled by the sales and marketing forces of darkness, and will ask for a UKLPG database entry. Our man can try to put him straight, pointing out it's all just a rip-off, but maybe some gullible insurance company is insisting, and our customer has some reason not to switch to a don't-care insurer.
All our man has to do is to point the customer to a UKLPG inspector. (There won't be any technical problems, naturally) Simples: there's just a matter of who should pay, by installer-customer negotiation. Our installer doesn't even have to buy so much as an emissions analyser or headed paper, certainly doesn't have to sully his hands with UKLPG or produce any credentials.
Everyone is satisfied, even the money-grubbing UKLPG who get paid for the entry.

Substitute DIYer for installer, it still works.

This is all old ground, dug in depth before.

[Gilbertd]

I don't think it's anger fuelled, at least I'm not getting angry about it (although may be bunging the odd extra argument in for pure devilment), but some feel strongly about it and Stephen did ask for suggestions.

You made a comment that VOSA would want to inspect a car built from scratch. Yes I have and yes they did. The difference is that they didn't insist I was a member of SMMT to submit it.

My take on this is that the database is a good idea. I've not received a certificate for the LPG system on any of my cars when I've bought them. I think I know enough about the subject to be able to see if something was wrong but somebody else may not. So from that perspective, I don't have a problem with the database.

What I do have a problem with is the double checking. In order to even be eligible to apply for membership of UKLPG I have to first attend, and pass assessment, a course that is based on the requirements of CoP11. Once I've done that I have a certificate that says I'm competent but that isn't good enough for UKLPG, they then want to assess me again. Why? Don't they trust their own members to train me properly? I know this doesn't include the checking of workshop facilities and the like but bear with me.

My suggestion for Stephen would be to allow competent installers a sort of lesser grade membership (Associateship?) purely on the basis that they have received recognised, approved training and been deemed competent by one of their members. These Associate members, who must be individuals whose main business is NOT the installation of LPG systems, pay a nominal membership fee, £30 per year for example (purely on the grounds that my daughter is a qualified, approved ballet teacher and that is what the overseeing body charge her per year. This then allows her to submit her pupils to them for examinations). This would then allow them to submit details of vehicles for inclusion on the database. The entry is marked with who submitted the details which would show it as being submitted by an Associate member. That's all, no logo on adverts or headed paper just purely an acknowledgement that the certificate he was given by the training establishment that trained him is actually worth the paper it is written on.

From this thread it seems that the installer has to pay to submit details to the database so make the fee higher, but no more than double, for associate members.

It would be beneficial to UKLPG too. More members equals more income thus putting less of the burden on the full members. It would also do them no end of good in the DIY and occasional installer circles. It would certainly stop the griping about closed shops as it would open up membership to anyone keen and interested enough to do a course. Make membership easier to obtain, nobody would have an excuse not to be a member and by introducing a two-tier system the larger installers couldn't claim it was demeaning them.

Could it?

[SimonHobson]

Here's the deal ; you decided UKLPG are a cartel of pirates years ago, fine.

Not quite, but I'll let that pass.

Nevertheless, they have created something you want, apparently.

See, you just don't get it do you - they have NOT created something I want to be part of/be able to use. Absolutely not.

But, they have created something I and others are required to use by circumstances. IMO, and nothing you have said contradicts this, part of the reason for them changing the system was to make it harder for non members to trade on their turf.

Back to your analogy. The BG have not done anything the farmer's wife wants to be involved with. She doesn't want to be a member, or get any of the services that come with membership. Her reputation is such that she doesn't need their logo to sell bread.
But, most of the markets in her area have now implemented a closed shop (and one wonders what was said in meetings for that to come to pass) such that they will not admit stallholders who aren't members. Thus the analogy is very apt - as you say, there is nothing at all in the legislation that stops your mythical installer doing conversions on his front lawn, but there are some real hurdles put in the way of his customers getting insurance etc.

You'll need to come up with a better case for them than "no fair, I want a go too" if you want them to listen to you.

Well if you want the public perception to be that UK LPG is about coerced membership rather than safety then you are welcome to keep going. Under it's current guise, you cannot legitimately claim that the database is solely about safety.

Why is this worse than when non-members couldn't issue LPGA paper certificates?
...
All our man has to do is to point the customer to a UKLPG inspector.

There you are - thank you for demonstrating in 15 words what people have been trying to explain in (so far) three pages of this forum.
Now explain why this mythical trader, perhaps with a wall full of certificates from courses, and clearly (as you say) competent should be beholden to a trade body that has no legal standing, is not a regulator, has none of the oversight that would come with being a regulator or having some legal right to control the market, and has no effective outside route of complaint ?
Yes he can still print his own paper certificates, but UK LPG have managed to devalue them so that they aren't accepted any more. Don't try and argue that this wasn't part of the reason for building the database - it would be insulting to me, and to your intelligence.

You are partially correct that UK LPG aren't completely to blame for this - after all, as you say it is a function of a trade body to do what it can for the benefit of it's members. Clearly there is something that's gone on between UK LPG and insurers, though it's is possible it's entirely coincidental that just as UK LPG ditches paper certificate for it's own members, many insurers stop accepting paper certificates from non-members too. Yes I suppose it could all be one very big coincidence ... and some people believe that pigs can fly.

[rossko]

Under it's current guise, you cannot legitimately claim that the database is solely about safety.

I never did claim that (see previous about 'sole' and 'one of ..' etc)

Yes he can still print his own paper certificates, but UK LPG have managed to devalue them so that they aren't accepted any more. Don't try and argue that this wasn't part of the reason for building the database

Errm I think it was me told everyone here that was indeed one of the reasons, you're imagining secrets again.
The intrepid installer can still print what he likes, exactly as before. The grubby conman can still print what he likes too. However, now the buying public and insurance industry etc. has an easy way to question the weight of such bits of paper.

Clearly there is something that's gone on between UK LPG and insurers

Yes, as discussed in the last time over this ground, they have lobbied insurers for ten years to get more of them to accept LPG conversions, and to sooth the skittish ones by offering vehicle certification. They've moved that forward by offering an easy fraud-proof check, nothing has changed except it has become easier. Insurers and buyers are no longer misled so easily. We might expect more insurers to act when its made easy for them.

Anyroad, its an existing reality, whaddawegonnadoaboutit?
You don't have to have anything to do with the scheme or UKLPG.
You can print what you like, same as before.
You can tell everyone what a wicked con it all is.
You can deal with insistent customers by letting them get UKLPG checks, same as an MoT.
You can tell everyone that you've been commercially disadvantaged (I already agreed with you).
You can set up your own association.
You can set up some alternative scheme with whatever criteria you like.
You can lobby insurers to accept yours/whoevers bit of paper, or scheme.
You can lobby government to set up its own scheme (this won't win many friends)
You can lobby government not to outlaw DIY or casual installs while you're at it, by pointing out the large proportion of cars that have been safety checked in our/your/their scheme. (yes another terrible secret aim of the scheme!!)
You can lobby Channel Tunnel, ferry operators etc. to accept LPG vehicles on the same evidence.
You can lobby TFL and DVLA to continue discounting LPG cars, as you have emissions figures to justify it in our/your/their scheme (though that's probably passed now)
You can join UKLPG.
You can persuade UKLPG to change its ways.

Get cracking ...

[Gilbertd]

You can join UKLPG.
You can persuade UKLPG to change its ways.

I suggested that but nobody has commented on it yet......

[Lukasin1]

Hello people, i'm a new guy to this LPG thing,i'm a diesel man but with so many everyday fuel rises i need to find a solution.
I know a bit of mechanics,i searched into LPG conversions,it doesn't sound too bad,i can buy an italian one,new and cheap with EU regulations which applies into uk as well,it's not really rocket science,but my concern comes down to UKLPG! for some reasons i feel that they are gonna rape my wallet with their regulations, and the thing that everything goes hand to hand, lpga with uklpg database and the govement doesn't control them. it seems to be that they have a nice way to help people like me,with NO MONEY, either their way or no way.

it just doesn't seem right that they don't recognise people competent to install LPG,who had their training but not registered with them,
THEY ARE NOT THE GOVERMENT

it's just wrong!

[SimonHobson]

You can join UKLPG.
You can persuade UKLPG to change its ways.

I suggested that but nobody has commented on it yet......

Don't hold your breath on that.

Incidentally, on insurance I note that I had no trouble at all insuring my first gassed vehicle (no hint of needing a certificate) - and it's been downhill ever since. Still that's improvement for you

[RobTheShirt]

The grubby conman can still print what he likes too. However, now the buying public and insurance industry etc. has an easy way to question the weight of such bits of paper.

I think the grubby conman came up with a better scam.
He set up UKLPGA and conned the insurance companies that he was the one to deal with

[rossko]

Sorry, were you waiting on me? I think its a bad idea, but its not me that needs to be persuaded.

My reaction for what its worth -

You seem to be asking for "someone elses" idea of competence to be accepted. That in itself isn't impossible, but obviously who/what "someone else" is is crucially important and needs fleshing out properly.
"Who guards the guardians" cuts both ways. Jack Noscruples imports non-E-marked chinese tat and sells it on eBay, and as manufacturer approved equipment importer and distributor issues a framed certificate to every customer that they are 'trained and competent'. Nobody wants that, more work needed there.

You're asking for a lower standard of assessment ; UKLPG approval includes elements of periodic and random checks. It includes checks that premises and equipment (e.g. emissions test) are safe, and suitable for producing safe installs.

You're asking for a lower standard of professionalism. UKLPG approval includes basic record keeping, customer complaint handling etc. Not sure how that might be squared with the "DIY" level applicant.

I have no idea if the suggestion about some kind of entry-level semi-membership would prove attractive to UKLPG.

I can't see 'closed shop' rants holding any water, though of course you can try appealing that way. Any conversion, trade or DIY, can get on the register today (if its up to scratch). A closed shop would simply deny 'outsider' jobs flat.

I'm struggling to see purpose in the second-class register entry. "this vehicle is converted but not UKLPG approved" doesn't seem to move you further forward. I'm sure there is some better form of words you would like, best make suggestions because I feel that would be a very strong bone of contention. Not up to me, but I would be amazed if any suggestion that a job was approved by UKLPG would be permitted.
It'd still be up to you to lobby insurers, DVLA, etc to accept this idea the way you want them too.

[Gilbertd]

Sorry, were you waiting on me? I think its a bad idea, but its not me that needs to be persuaded.

Well you do seem to be capable of looking at both sides of an argument.

You seem to be asking for "someone elses" idea of competence to be accepted. That in itself isn't impossible, but obviously who/what "someone else" is is crucially important and needs fleshing out properly.

As far as I can see, all of the companies offering training courses are members of UKLPG already and are teaching to CoP11, so UKLPG are obviously already aware of their suitability to offer courses. Are the UKLPG staff that conduct the checks on their members any more skilled or qualified than those that they are checking?

I have no idea if the suggestion about some kind of entry-level semi-membership would prove attractive to UKLPG.

Neither have I but if it's suggestions they want....

I can't see 'closed shop' rants holding any water, though of course you can try appealing that way. Any conversion, trade or DIY, can get on the register today (if its up to scratch). A closed shop would simply deny 'outsider' jobs flat.

But isn't that what already exists? A person, no matter how highly qualified cannot certify an installation unless he is a member of UKLPG. It is the ability to certify a conversion that appears to be the main bone of contention. Anywhere else the fact that I can put CEng MIET after my name (even though I rarely bother) shows that I am competent but it appears that I am considered incapable of reading a code of practice and saying if an install meets the conditions of it or not.

I'm struggling to see purpose in the second-class register entry. "this vehicle is converted but not UKLPG approved" doesn't seem to move you further forward. I'm sure there is some better form of words you would like, best make suggestions because I feel that would be a very strong bone of contention. Not up to me, but I would be amazed if any suggestion that a job was approved by UKLPG would be permitted.

No, what it would be saying is that this conversion has been converted to the standards required by UKLPG. Surely who did the conversion is pretty irrelevant as long as it is done correctly?

It'd still be up to you to lobby insurers, DVLA, etc to accept this idea the way you want them too.

Why, UKLPG have already done that by lobbying the insurers to accept the database.

I can see the fear that someone would do a course, get their 'second class' membership so they can certify installations and then bung any old unsuitable kit in a car not up to standard and hope nobody notices. But doesn't that already happen? There are a fairly regular stream of posters on here with systems that have been badly fitted, if not downright unsuitable, by a UKLPG member who has then washed his hands of it. It's down to how honest people are and there will always be some that can give any trade a bad name. While it may be a minor inconvenience surely any customer who has paid good money to have a conversion done would welcome the work being checked at a later date by a trade association to confirm it has been done as well as they have been led to believe it has. Personally, unless I had seen recommendations from other customers I would rather entrust the work to a one man band who has certificates on his wall that show he has been trained in fitting the product he is trying to sell me than the bigger company with the logo of a trade association on their letter head. Meaningless associations where you pay your money and nothing more are often seen to devalue memberships of this kind.

But, it's no different to having any other work done on a car. Just because the company and some of the staff are fully trained and approved by a motor manufacturer doesn't stop the work being given to the lad who only started a couple of weeks ago. A work colleague took a Honda motorcycle in to a Honda main agent for a service and as he put it on the centre stand after riding it home, a rear brake pad fell out! The job had been given to the apprentice who hadn't fitted the pads correctly and his work hadn't been properly checked before the customer collected the bike.

But at the end of the day, nothing is likely to change so why am I still here typing this at this time of night?

[SimonHobson]

OK, I'll throw in something else.

What is the UK LPG certification actually for ?

The answer is obvious isn't it ? Or is it. Take a good look at CoP11, and some of it is actually not safety related - it's performance and/or reliability related. Take out the performance/reliability stuff and there's not a lot left that any competent auto trade person couldn't look at and say "yes it meets that" or "no, that's wrong". Who do we know of that are used to looking at vehicles all the time and assessing their safety ? Let me think, I reckon most MoT testers could do it without too much trouble.

But that's only assessing the safety aspects.

Yes the customer is interested in performance and reliability - but they are not safety issues and aren't of any concern to the insurers. I, like many others, are not interested in whether TfL or DVLA accept it as I have no plans to go to London and there's no discount of my VED.

So, distill CoP11 down to the essentials :
Are the tanks suitable, and are they mounted securely.
Is the pipework suitable, and it is suitably routed & fixed.
Are the components of the system suitable.
Do any internal bits have the correct venting.
Is there a suitable safety relay - either as a separate unit or built into a controller.

There you are, five essential points for a safety check.

If you want to add emissions to keep TfL and DVLA happy, then guess what every MoT station has ? They all have an a high quality emissions tester.

But from my POV, there are a LOT more MoT test stations within easy travelling distance than there are UK LPG installers. Know how many there are in the same county as me ? One, just one, and that's a three hour round trip. And of course, that assumes they deal with your make of kit (they don't !). If they aren't trained/qualified in a particular manufacturers kit, then how can they be qualified to safety check it - when no-one else is qualified to check anything ?
Heading the other way into the next county, the nearest also doesn't list my kit. I had to go a long way before I found anyone listing my kit - so a full day out for that then. So much for the "you just have to pop round to your UK LPG installer for a certificate" argument. That may be news to some regulars, Rossko for instance is in an area that's fairly well supplied with members.

PS - Another suggestion for UK LPG. Fix that f***ing annoying "find an installer" map thing. I really can't imagine what someone was thinking when they designed that. Click on the spanner symbol and get some details. Click on the little "x" to close the details box and the map scrolls back to where you started instead of staying where you were looking.

[tommo2009]

If you want to add emissions to keep TfL and DVLA happy, then guess what every MoT station has ? They all have an a high quality emissions tester.

and here it falls down again. the test must show a reduction of 10%, this is complete rubbish as most vehicles are on the verge of zero any way, but the MOT test is the old non cat test so the limits are 3.5%co and 1200ppm for HC's. CAT test is 0.2%CO and 200ppm HC

Why not just add a few items to the MOT test. As has been said, there are very few safety issues with the COP11 regulations. it wouldn't take much to add these to the MOT test. then any one can fit an LPG system, which if it is genuine will have its own certificate of conformity supplied as will the tank. this could be shown at the time. if the system then passes on a safety side then it should be allowed on the register. it should pass the emissions test unless it is way out of tune and this would fail MOT anyway

if the UKLPG was to help to instigate this then they may get a few more people actually saying they warrant their existense

[SimonHobson]

if the UKLPG was to help to instigate this then they may get a few more people actually saying they warrant their existense

I didn't write this earlier (I thought about it), but I will now.

At present, among those that know anything about them, UK LPG are seen as a trade body with ideas above it's status. It's a trade body, but wants to be a regulator - and from things I've read in the past it's clear that at least part of it wants it to have a legal monopoly on that. Part of the problem is that people see there being an element of compulsion - even if it's not stated, there is definitely an air of "if you want to work in LPG, you must join us". The previous statement that the register is deliberately intended to devalue all paper certificates doesn't exactly do anything to demonstrate otherwise.

In certain other fields I have an interest in, I've seen bodies which work differently. Rather than working on a basis of compulsion, they work for the benefit of the <field> as a whole - and persuade people to join because people value them, respect them, and feel it's worth while. Three key values that I think UK LPG is missing somewhat.

Obviously, I expect those who are members to have a different view.

[tommo2009]

So what does the UKLPG actually do?
Do they help an installer should he have a problem - NO
Do they help customers if they have problems - NO
Do they take money from instalers who want to join - YES
do they Take money annually for you you stay in the club - YES
After four years does your certification run out - YES (even though you pay every year and have inspections)

Do they use some if the money installers pay them to have a national ad campaign for LPG - NO

Do they let you use the LPGA logo - YES (only if you pay though)
Am I anti UKLPG - YES, but only because they never do anything to help anyone they only hinder. there are many stories on here with customers who are very unhappy with installers and who have had no joy whatsoever by getting the UKLPG involved.
There is also the otherside which doesn't get put on here with installers who are having problems and the UKPLG does not help them either.

How much advertising do you see for LPG as an alternative fuel - none - I had an e-mail from an excited LPGA official a few yaers ago saying to watch one of the terestrial channels as there was an item on LPG. Turns out it was someone who had converted his car and was trying to get the advantages of LPG over to the public - what involvement from the UKLPG - NONE

Now this register - only UKPLG approved installers can add to it and they are trying to get all insurers to use the database. If this isn't trying to create a closed shop then what is?

There was the same with cars and repairs, and a scheme that came about that stopped the closed shop within that industry, it is called the right to repair.

When you leave the LPGA/UKLPG they ask for their book of certificates back (even though you have paid for them). I know a large amount of installers who chose to leave the scheme. So now the UKLPG have a problem, a large amount of approved installers who are now not members and who still have their book of certificates. What to do they ask, lets stop the certificates and create a database only we can use - simples!!!

[rossko]

And so we're back to rants.

You can completely ignore UKLPG.
You can start up your own scheme.
You can lobby Government for some mandatory scheme etc etc ....

[SimonHobson]

And so we're back to rants.

And so we're back to someone who really, really, really does not get what the complaint is about. Sorry, but it's clear you really don't get it no matter how many times it's explained to you.

You can completely ignore UKLPG.

That's what many of us would like to do.
Personally, there is nothing I want from the LPGA/UK LPG - and it's clear that I'm not alone. You could argue that there's CoP11, but in the absence of UK LPG and CoP11 I have no doubt that something else would have come along. Before anyone asks why there isn't something else already, well what incentive is there to come up with a standard that would simply duplicate (in most part) an existing standard and cause confusion.

But, the big problem is that we cannot ignore UK LPG. We could until recently - we could simply continue printing our valid certificates of conformity, and insurers would accept them. No UK LPG has managed to (in large part) scupper that.
I have no problem whatsoever if they want to do away with their own paper certificates, I do have a problem that they've chosen to interfere with mine.

[tommo2009]

Its not a rant rossko, it is what I and a number of installers have found while being pert of the LPGA/UKLPG. We tried to get them to listen to some of the suggestions put to them but they chose to ignore all of them.

I guess you are a fully paid up memeber of the UKLPG, and I am not saying that is a bad thing, but I am also guessing you have never had to put them to the test, if you had then your opinion of them may be slightly different.

I think the industry should have some kind of regulation, otherwise you end up with guys like toolless doing pretty dangerous things. ( regulations still wouldn't stop this) but if it was part of the MOT then it would be picked up on and the dangerous aspect of some DIY and professional intallations would hopefully be erradicated over time.

You know as well as I do that a proffessional installation can be worse than some DIY installs. As stated you only have to prove one installation to becaome a member of the club. Then you get to pick and choose what car you want inspected when it comes to inspection time. This makes a complete mockery of a "regulated" industry

A database of people who are certified to fit different systems would be more suitable.

[rossko]

Whether I get it or not is immaterial (though I get very confused - on the one hand UKLPG ought to promote a safe, effective conversion industry ; on the other they need to emasculate the vehicle registration to a 'safety only' check and ignore anything about it working properly and reliably.) I are not a member, I are a teknishun working for a member company.

Your problem seems to be totally with insurers. Someone invented an easy, secure method for them to find out what they want to know. And then (gasp) they told them how to use it. You might wish it uninvented, but its too late.
Motor insurance is a billion pound industry and this stuff is small fry to them, they don't need to bother with any of us at all. They make their own decisions, as you can tell by the fact that they haven't all made the same decision. (I would say that disproves the conspiracy theories, but I expect someone would claim that only some insurers accept bribes etc.)
I understand more of them will now consider converted cars, because of ease of use. A few of them still won't touch it (or any other modification). Some of them don't care about registration or certificates either way.

What you ought to do is persuade most insurers that they are acting unfairly, by only accepting one trade association's rubber stamp, and that really they ought to consider any old piece of paper and sort out frauds from meaningful ones themselves. Being insurers, I think you'd need to show how that would make them more money and expose them to less risk.

Assuming you don't have the wherwithall to set about lobbying motor insurers (which I will freely admit is something trade associations do better, gasp) I'd suggest you find out which insurers don't-care so that you can recommend them to folk. After all, since conspiracies work so well that would undermine the whole registration scheme, UKLPG will collapse in flames and you can all dance on the bonfire. OK that's an exaggeration, UKLPG won't collapse because autogas is small fry to them too, but it's down to you to persuade insurers/public/installers that UKLPG or its scheme are spawn of satan or whatevers.

I quite understand the frustration, you were all presented with a 'fait accompli' nearly a year ago. I do understand biggest impact on non-member installers is that bits of paper saying "in accordance with CoP11" are now easily distinguished from genuine members UKLPGA certification; but no-ones done anything about it since, except vent.

You've been presented with an opportunity to talk sensibly to UKLPG (generalised "you" meaning non-members can get a say, even DIYers) and see what you can do, but its getting wasted. They might well not listen, unless you can make a clear and coherant case that is Good for UKLPG, or Good for the industry overall (and hence indirectly for UKLPG and its members).

You are not denied any opportunity to address insurers, government departments, VOSA, Monopolies commision, whoever it is that you want to do something for you. They're not reading here.

Meantime any conversion is eligible to go on the register, however much you might resent taking it to UKLPG inspector. Yes, they are not on every street corner. Neither are non-member installers, its a relatively small industry.

"Gilbert" - I did read your suggestion, it seems to add up to UKLPG approved trainers offering UKLPG approved courses - I suspect this is not what the others had in mind? There would be details to sort out, examination pieces, length of validity, random inspections, premises/equipment, retrospective pre-approval trainees etc.

[tommo2009]

[quote="rossko"]"Gilbert" - I did read your suggestion, it seems to add up to UKLPG approved trainers offering UKLPG approved courses - I suspect this is not what the others had in mind? There would be details to sort out, examination pieces, length of validity, random inspections, premises/equipment, retrospective pre-approval trainees etc.
quote]

Does not need to be UKLPG approved trainers. As it is now, you buy the equipment, and fit it. You either then take it to the supplier and get it checked or they come and check it for you. If they are happy that it is installed in the correct manner they issue you with a certificate of competency for the fitting of said equipment.

This is usually included in the cost of the systems or as some importers would have, you buy an installation at full cost and get supervision while you fit it. Then when it is done you are issued with a certificate.

All this aside still doesn't get past the fact that substandard installs are going to be done and if they are done by a UKLPG installer they will get onto the list without being checked. If a DIY install is done however and then gets checked by an Approved installer the chance of a sub standard one getting through is less likely. All this could be erradicated by adding the LPG system checks to an MOT.

I don't want to see substandard conversions out there on our roads, but as it stands now there is more chance of that because of the way the UKLPG regulates it's installers.

[tommo2009]

But if you add things to the MOT test then what is the point of the UKLPG, maybe this is why they don't want to implement it!!!