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alexf2828 · #41 Post by **alexf2828** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:06 pm

Could also have been some other fault like cracked inlet manifold that was not picked up

sm200sx · #42 Post by **sm200sx** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:57 pm

My installer thought my car was fully sequential but turned out to be semi sequential (fires 1&2 then 3&4 in pairs) I assume you mean 1/3 and 2/4 This is the norm for most cars as far as I know. Batch firing, where injectors 1&3 and 2&4 fire together, it is also normal for the electronic ingnition to fire the spark plugs together. Fuel wise this just leave a little fuel around the inlet valve seat(talking petrol here) which is sucked in when the valve opens and is not as atmoised as the fuel that goes straight in from the injector. This is one of the reasons that polishing this area of the engine to increase power is not advised, you need a slight roughness to aid atomisation of the fuel. You have to bear in mind how quick a cycle of an engine is, the fuel does not exactly "sit" for long.

richy_boy · #44 Post by **richy_boy** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:32 pm

£1650 all in. Sorry to disagree back Keith, but everything in life has a 'market value'. A good LPGA approved install with 'this or that' kit 'should' be about £xxxx. People can charge more, that's fine... personally I'd find another GOOD installer who would give me better value for money, as after all, that's what LPG is all about! SAVING MONEY. I'm not Joe Public either, before I bought my kit I did a little research and found out the 'average' price of the install I wanted and £2k is well above the average range. I had prices from £1500inc to £2000inc and settled with £1650inc. Using your example, If I took a taxi ride that many friends have before which cost them £20 but the driver told me it was £30 then I would certainly question it, wouldn't you?! A few quid here and there is fine, but potentially £500 (25%) above market price is soemthing else and I would like to see where this extra money is going (i.e. better kit or 'something else'). ALL installs that are LPGA certifies SHOULD be of a very high standard anyway, so we shouldn't be paying more for a 'better LPGA approved install' as that would negate the while point! Rich

alexf2828 · #45 Post by **alexf2828** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:39 am

No its definately cylinders 1&2 then 3&4 because u can swap the injector pipes over on 1&2 and it doesn't run any different! also the injectors are in one block for 1&2 and one block for 3&4 (matrix I believe)

alexf2828 · #46 Post by **alexf2828** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:43 am

My car is the '99 wasted spark model,don't know if this makes a difference

volvo940 · #48 Post by **volvo940** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:35 pm

I was getting confused, OK, wasted spark, assume (cyl) firing order 1342, two banks (fuel) fire once per revolution? inject fuel for 1/2 as inlet 2 is opening, fuel for 1 waits in manifold 180 deg for inlet 1 to open. inject fuel for 3/4 as inlet 3 is opening, fuel for 4 waits in manifold 180 deg for inlet 4 to open. I suppose this makes sense How many air filter boxes did you get through?

richy_boy · #51 Post by **richy_boy** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:38 am

Well then Keith, you've just earned yourself an extra few £100 for the conversion <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> I'm all up for paying what what I get, but when a 'governing' body such as the LPGA sets standards then you either conform to them and put in a good system, or you do above and beyond to charge that bit more. You seem to fall into the latter catagory - if the customer is happy paying a bit more for such a service then so be it. As far as I'm consrned, if the system is thrown into the engine bay and routed all over the shop then this is not a quality or install fit for LPGA certification. Mr SAAB (sorry don't know your name): Dealer computers are rubbish. Club members have taken their car into Nissan due to a stumbling/misfiring/poor mpg issue and they've plugged the car into the computer system. "computers say fine"... so they can't help. THAT'S IT, they can't help at all as non of their monkeys has an ounce of experience and qualifications between them. It takes a real 'old school' mechanic to check for a broken intercooler! (which it was and was fixed in an hour) I think we can all safely say one of the LPG systems has caused this piston to melt due to a fuelling problem, however, you simply can't prove liability, unless someone can check the fuelling MAP (or lambda logs) in your LPG ECU for something wrong. (i.e. lean mixture at 6k rpm on Wide open Throttle). If you can prove the mixture was going lean then you can pretty much prove who was at fault. I'm not an LPG installer so I can't help with what logging capabilities your particular system has <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":-(" BORDER=0> Rich

alexf2828 · #53 Post by **alexf2828** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:04 pm

Ford coil pack? car is a rover 620Ti and the coil pack is just a big square block,no way of telling which cylinders fire together from looking at it

badger · #55 Post by **badger** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:32 am

Keith, it is my experience that there are just as many dodgy converters that are LPGA approved as are independant! I said further up the thread about one in particular, he was reported but the LPGA did sod-all about him. Had they bothered to come north and look at the std of his work after a complaint then they would have had to do something! As I have said before, having an LPGA certificate book DOES NOT make someone a good converter. I go way beyond COP11, fitting splash and dirt shields over ECU's if I deem it necessary, double-skinned heat shielding, connections soldered instead of just "crimp and hope", ducted cable runs, etc, all because I personally believe that no vehicle leaves my workshop until I am 100% satisfied that the conversion has been done as well as is possible, not just to meet a minimum standard. Whoever it was that said "you are only as good as your last conversion" was spot on. I carried out my own survey of insurers over a 6 month period and then emailed the LPGA with the results asking why they were scaremongering by stating that most insurers will only offer cover if you have an LPGA cert., when in fact this is rubbish. There were only a small handful that demanded such certification, most were happy that there was proof of installation by a qualified person. Needless to say the response I received back was somewhat shoulder-sloping to say the least. And why should I pay them good money to check my workshop when I know of LPGA approved installers who's premises have drains in the middle of the floors, unvented pits etc yet they are "approved"? I'm not losing any work by not being a member and I honestly can't see what the LPGA could do for me other than offer to empty my wallet annualy! Keith, you are right that some should never have been approved in the first place, but when so many obviously were, does that not prove that the LPGA is inadequate in enforcing its own rules?

richy_boy · #56 Post by **richy_boy** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:24 pm

Nice rant Brian.. it's not just me then <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> My worry is that LPGA is turning into a bit of a racket operation. They spread fear by telling people any NON LPGA installations are unsafe, and it's got to a point when some main importers for LPG kits refuse to sell parts unless the buyer is LPGA registered. It's like microsoft refusing to sell their Server software unless you're MCSE qualified (which you have to pay M$ ~£1000 for in exams). Anyway, it's not really what the thread is about.. and I can see the need for some governing standards body, but for me, as soon as you pay someone money to get 'qualified' it's a slippery slope! Rich

#58 Post by **admin** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:58 pm

In the IT world we have the same sort of problem. We have people coming in with every qualification under the sun with no hands on experience whatsoever. I feel that the industry should insist on at least two years experience with proven results before issuing a certificate. This could also be applied to the LPGA, have the inital process to gain associate accreditation, then after two years full membership. Could weed out those nasty cowboys. Damian

badger · #60 Post by **badger** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:33 pm

Richy, you are spot on with your worry about it turning into a racket operation, I have been feeling the same way for some time now. Keith, maybe "we" as installers should look at setting up a separate assosciation with its own guidelines and regulations, if nothing else it would serve as a public "no confidence" statement aimed at the LPGA and just might make someone in government think that there may be issues with them and that just maybe they aren't the right people to be the governments "right-hand-man" as it were? Just a thought.