LPG Discussion Forum

Pinger wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:24 pm I now have a full tank of LPG - less 50 or so miles worth of running. Relief!
A bit of everything discussed contributed to yesterday's no fill. Not least the dead man's handle that is the 'button'. Yes I knew it had to be held for continuous delivery but I didn't know that releasing it even momentarily required a reset by the cashier. We live we learn....

Changing the filler type and relocating isn't a bad idea. Haven't decided yet about tank relocation but the filler is probably worth doing irrespective of that.

Car runs more or less fine on LPG but at higher rpm seems less happy. Some investigation required I think but as yesterday was the first I'd driven it on the road there's a few other things to attend to first - such as a steering shimmy at the very end of a heavy braking stop.

Anyway, one milestone is passed (car on road and running on LPG) and the advice here helped massively with that so thanks to everyone (all three of you!) who helped. Massively appreciated, thank you.

Depends on the pump - some do, some don't. You will also find some you have to release and try again if you press it too soon. Usually giving it a press for about 30 seconds, if you get nothing then, release and try again usually does the trick.

Sounds like your filler is past its best possibily though, so Richard's advice on changing it would be worth considering if you keep having problems.

Pinger wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:28 pm Brian_H. If I'd posted just minutes sooner I could have saved you a lot of typing. As you will have read, it now fills and is filled.
Nonetheless, your proposed test methods are noted for future use - cheers.

You have it working, thats the main thing!

Good news, at least you can fill it and it's now running on LPG. There's various reasons why it might be going flat at higher revs but you'll need to get a cable plugged in and get it hooked up to a laptop to see what it is doing. On the R90E, is the gas takeoff using the top or bottom outlet?

Yep, much relieved it has accepted LPG and that it runs tolerably well as without that running this thing would bankrupt me!
LPG take off from the reducer is at the top - but I can't see if there is another take off lower down - I'll get a better look later.

The high rpm operation is a bit erratic and the auto box the same. Sometimes it wont kick down into 3rd (4sp box) and in 2nd it will hang there at the red line but without the power I expect. In 3rd it pulls like a train (but not been to the redline in it as traffic yesterday wasn't conducive for heading for three figure mph but in 2nd it's not quite right and it may be the same on petrol. More investigation required but today's focus is on the steering. I still need to get a AEB/USB lead but TT's two part effort isn't appealing and another supplier I contacted haven't replied. On the to-do list. I can and will run diagnostics on the chassis and the car's own fuelling/ignition/etc systems.

How difficult is fitting a new coupler a) in its existing position, b) relocated? If for a) the threads are the same, easy I'd expect. For b), a new line required and as yet I have no idea re type/size (copper?) of pipe or fittings. I'm relived though that even if the filler as it is gets damaged, the contents of the tank are contained.

The R90E has an outlet at the top and another, with a plastic bung on it, at the bottom. Where possible it's advised to use the bottom one then any heavy ends, the lubricant that is dissolved in the liquid Propane to lubricate the filling pumps, drains out of that and gets burnt. If you use the top outlet, then the heavy ends just accumulate in the vaporiser and ultimately reduce it's capacity. It isn't a regular thing unless you are filling from somewhere that is dredging the bottom of the tank or filling from red bottles. I drained maybe a thimbleful out of mine after 2 years and 50,000 miles (including filling up in Eastern Europe on 3 trips).

Autobox operation may be controlled by a cable or it may use the throttle position sensor. Make sure it works correctly on petrol before playing with the gas system. Although it's a separate fuel system if it doesn't run right on one it isn't likely to run right on the other.

Lead can be got from https://www.lpg-kits.com/, click on LPG Autogas Interface Kits at the left side menu, then the same thing on the smaller menu that appears then scroll down to AEB.

Fitting a replacement filler isn't difficult. The fill pipe will be 8mm copper or JIC hose and you'll need a filler that will mate up with the existing pipework.

Pinger wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:26 am Yep, much relieved it has accepted LPG and that it runs tolerably well as without that running this thing would bankrupt me!
LPG take off from the reducer is at the top - but I can't see if there is another take off lower down - I'll get a better look later.

The high rpm operation is a bit erratic and the auto box the same. Sometimes it wont kick down into 3rd (4sp box) and in 2nd it will hang there at the red line but without the power I expect. In 3rd it pulls like a train (but not been to the redline in it as traffic yesterday wasn't conducive for heading for three figure mph but in 2nd it's not quite right and it may be the same on petrol. More investigation required but today's focus is on the steering. I still need to get a AEB/USB lead but TT's two part effort isn't appealing and another supplier I contacted haven't replied. On the to-do list. I can and will run diagnostics on the chassis and the car's own fuelling/ignition/etc systems.

How difficult is fitting a new coupler a) in its existing position, b) relocated? If for a) the threads are the same, easy I'd expect. For b), a new line required and as yet I have no idea re type/size (copper?) of pipe or fittings. I'm relived though that even if the filler as it is gets damaged, the contents of the tank are contained.

Its really hard to answer the question about the filler, without understanding what you actually have currently. Is it possible to get a photo of it (you can upload them directly to the forum, but you need to click the full editor button in the reply box to see the options).

Your probabbly fine to reuse the hose, but there are different types of hoses, and you need to know what you have before getting the replacement filler, as the fitting on the back needs to match the hose it connects to.

Gilbertd wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:21 pm The R90E has an outlet at the top and another, with a plastic bung on it, at the bottom. Where possible it's advised to use the bottom one then any heavy ends, the lubricant that is dissolved in the liquid Propane to lubricate the filling pumps, drains out of that and gets burnt. If you use the top outlet, then the heavy ends just accumulate in the vaporiser and ultimately reduce it's capacity. It isn't a regular thing unless you are filling from somewhere that is dredging the bottom of the tank or filling from red bottles. I drained maybe a thimbleful out of mine after 2 years and 50,000 miles (including filling up in Eastern Europe on 3 trips).

Thanks Gilbertd for another helpful reply. I wondered why you were asking about the reducer's outlet - now I know. Will bear it in mind.

Gilbertd wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:21 pmAutobox operation may be controlled by a cable or it may use the throttle position sensor. Make sure it works correctly on petrol before playing with the gas system. Although it's a separate fuel system if it doesn't run right on one it isn't likely to run right on the other.

It's the 4L80E box I have, the E being for electronic control. For sure it reads TPS but no idea what else - if anything. Agreed, getting it to run correctly on petrol is a good start point - and possibly easier for a reason I'll come to. It is also possible that I just haven't driven it enough (only 50 miles) to learn its ways - or it learn mine (if it is at all adaptive).

Gilbertd wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:21 pmLead can be got from https://www.lpg-kits.com/, click on LPG Autogas Interface Kits at the left side menu, then the same thing on the smaller menu that appears then scroll down to AEB.

Perfect! Ordered one. It wasn't so much the twin leads on the TT one now I remember, it was the prospect of downloading software onto Windows 8.1 and then transferring it to the lap top I use for diagnostics (Delphi and Wurth) which is Windows 7 - and cannot be connected to the 'net. The one I've ordered comes with a CD. Better, as transferring between W8.1 and W7 can be a bit hit or miss with some things.
Will this enable me to capture and save data or does it have to be read live in real time? The aforementioned diagnostics (which I can use for petrol operation) has the ability to save for later reading. Monitoring a lap top while hoofing up a 255hp V8 in third gear isn't going to be the easiest (or safest) of tasks!

Gilbertd wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:21 pmFitting a replacement filler isn't difficult. The fill pipe will be 8mm copper or JIC hose and you'll need a filler that will mate up with the existing pipework.

See next post.

Brian_H wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:49 pm

Its really hard to answer the question about the filler, without understanding what you actually have currently. Is it possible to get a photo of it (you can upload them directly to the forum, but you need to click the full editor button in the reply box to see the options).

Your probabbly fine to reuse the hose, but there are different types of hoses, and you need to know what you have before getting the replacement filler, as the fitting on the back needs to match the hose it connects to.

Thanks Brian-H.
The filler isn't my highest priority (I have another car to make sense of before a re-insure deadline of early April which needs a shed load of things sorted out for the re-insure decision) unless.....
Is it normal that the nozzle when attached doesn't snug right up to the car's filler but droops slightly? No leaks during filling but a sloppy kind of fit. Also, is it common place for LPG to be released (in liquid phase) to atmo on releasing the filler? That happened with mine and I suspect it is normal but strange that it is tolerated given the concerns about releasing UBHCs into the atmosphere.

I'll need to have a look at what connects my filler to the tank. All that is visible thus far is plastic trunking about 1,1/2'' OD. There is a copper pipe that emerges from it at the MV end. Safe to assume it is continuous to the filler?

Cheers for the heads-up on photos - will be useful at some point!

Typically yes, you lose a little bit of gas on disconnection, but thats not something you can avoid, its around a teaspoon of liquid every time. Yours might lose a bit more if its using an adaptor as well as theres more space inside. You'd lose a bit on petrol refilling anyway, although the pump itself has a recovery mechanism, you will always lose a bit of vapour when refilling the tank from the tank itself (its a lot better now than it used to be though). Diesel on the other hand, tends to end up coating the floor round the pump, the diesel nozzle and everything in its path inbetween, only to end up washed into the nearest drains or get on the feet of everyone in the area so its not really much better on that front!

If your finding its a lot every time, then it might be worth swapping the filler when its convient, the drooping may be down to worn lugs on the filler, or a poorly supported filler. Where is it actaully fitted to on the car?

Pipe wise, sounds like its an 8mm copper fill line to me. Won't be the fastest to fill, but not too major if the tank isn't massive. You'd assume its continous throughout, but might not be if someone previously has been in there. Its more important to check what the connection on the back of the filler is (I'd expect its a 8mm copper connection, but could be straight or 90 degree type, only way to tell there is to look).

Brian_H wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:38 pm Typically yes, you lose a little bit of gas on disconnection, but thats not something you can avoid, its around a teaspoon of liquid every time. Yours might lose a bit more if its using an adaptor as well as theres more space inside. You'd lose a bit on petrol refilling anyway, although the pump itself has a recovery mechanism, you will always lose a bit of vapour when refilling the tank from the tank itself (its a lot better now than it used to be though). Diesel on the other hand, tends to end up coating the floor round the pump, the diesel nozzle and everything in its path inbetween, only to end up washed into the nearest drains or get on the feet of everyone in the area so its not really much better on that front!

'Tis normal then.
Not a diesel fan are you? Me neither.

Brian_H wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:38 pmIf your finding its a lot every time, then it might be worth swapping the filler when its convient, the drooping may be down to worn lugs on the filler, or a poorly supported filler. Where is it actaully fitted to on the car?

On the rear (steel) bumper pointing rearward and pretty much the furthest rearwards part of the car.
Not the greatest positioning IMO but still second in stupidity to the LPG mixer being up stream from the PCV inlet. I'll overlook the reducer mounting that scuppers proper battery securement and risks punching a hole through its bottom with a bolt head. All that stops me naming and shaming the installer is the possibility that alterations have been made in the intervening 18 years since installation.

Brian_H wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:38 pmPipe wise, sounds like its an 8mm copper fill line to me. Won't be the fastest to fill, but not too major if the tank isn't massive. You'd assume its continous throughout, but might not be if someone previously has been in there. Its more important to check what the connection on the back of the filler is (I'd expect its a 8mm copper connection, but could be straight or 90 degree type, only way to tell there is to look).

Tank is 120l and it took 97l and ages! Dead man's handle red button and I had to change hands several times (stop sniggering at the back). Has anyone devised something to hold the button? Big magnet came to mind (I had plenty time to think) but suspect the pump case is made of plastic - damn!
Continuous pipe I think - I've just eyeballed it behind the bumper from underneath and it's a straight connection. If I relocate it, the obvious place is further along the bumper where it angles inward to form a step in the centre (think typical USA truck with the central recess where the number plate sits). In plan view it would then be angled as opposed to pointing straight out but it would no longer be the furthest extremity and would be protected from casual knocks. Maybe, there's enough length to re-route - but suspect it will have to turn a corner around the (35 Imp gallon! petrol tank) and need a longer one. Definitely so if I site it on the RHS of the number plate where there is already a suitable sized hole (for towbar wiring I think - which may be needed). A new hole on the LHS would be better I suspect.
Is working with appropriate copper pipe much the same as working with copper brake pipe re bending? Are olives used?

Pinger wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:15 pm Not a diesel fan are you? Me neither.

You won't find many on here, I'm certainly not one as you guessed.

Pinger wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:15 pm On the rear (steel) bumper pointing rearward and pretty much the furthest rearwards part of the car.
Not the greatest positioning IMO but still second in stupidity to the LPG mixer being up stream from the PCV inlet. I'll overlook the reducer mounting that scuppers proper battery securement and risks punching a hole through its bottom with a bolt head. All that stops me naming and shaming the installer is the possibility that alterations have been made in the intervening 18 years since installation.

Give some thought to if you can get it near to the centre of the rear of the car - if yours is particually wide it might not be an option, but I've found over the 5 LPG vehicles I've had, that a central filling point gives you the option for filling from either side which saves waiting for the right side of the pump to be free (or the awkard reversing to get to the pump when its on the wrong side). Fixing off the towbar hitch usually using something like this > https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... are-cover/ gets rid of the dodgy spring loaded cap as well

Pinger wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:15 pm Tank is 120l and it took 97l and ages! Dead man's handle red button and I had to change hands several times (stop sniggering at the back). Has anyone devised something to hold the button? Big magnet came to mind (I had plenty time to think) but suspect the pump case is made of plastic - damn!

You could swap it to JIC if it really bothered you, but its expensive and only really worthwhile if your using a lot (you need a JIC filler for that, appropiate pipe and an adaptor for the multivalve. might be more than one pipe you need, and you really need to work out what length pipe you want/need - which is hard to do without having a pipe to hand to see how it fits)

Pinger wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:15 pm Is working with appropriate copper pipe much the same as working with copper brake pipe re bending? Are olives used?

If its copper yes olives are used. Filler usually comes with the olive and the nut required to hold it in place though. You might get away with the existing olive. If your replacing any pipe, your best to use polypipe instead - its much easier to handle and gives you a wider bore on the same pipe. There is typically 8mm pipe used for the filler, 6mm may be used for the run to the front, yours might be either but should be easy to work out by looking at it as it will either be the same size as the filler, or smaller.

My car has the American type draw bar with the option of ball through bumper or slide in type so no immediate mounting holes. Straight into the bumper next to the number plate (so long as I don't obscure one of its lights) would work well I think.

What is JIC? Polypipe - plastic? Available from the LPG component suppliers?
Mine is 8mm copper and smaller (probably 6mm) to front. The MV inlet has the fitting securing the pipe but it doesn't thread directly into the MV body but into another fitting - possibly a reducer? If this opens the possibility of a larger diameter copper (or polypipe) pipe and faster filling - then there's an immediate benefit to motivate me! Filling took ages and at the end of a working day on the way home anything that saves me being stood outside in the freezing cold for longer than necessary is a bonus. BTW, where I will be fuelling - single pump on its own away from the petrol and diesel pumps - not even on the forecourt. Say hello to rural NE Scotland!

JIC and polypipe you can see pictures of here > https://tinleytech.co.uk/product-catego ... and-hoses/

Fittings to mate the poly pipe to the copper type fittings here > https://tinleytech.co.uk/product-catego ... -fittings/

Theres a number of pumps around like yours, The ones that used to be countrywide were all like that, fine when weather is good, not so good when its wet and cold.

On the button question, its not unknown to use something in the side of the button to hold it in place, but depends on the pump. You obviously shouldn't do so, though i've seen stations where they do it routinely.

JIC hose is intended for a 4 hole type tank (which has a bigger fill port) hence the adaptor for the multivalve. Though it does improve over 8mm poly even through the adaptor (by enough that I swapped mine from 8mm poly to JIC when i got fed up of it)

Thanks Brian_H.
I'm going to have a look at the reducing union on the MV inlet. If it would take larger polypipe or JIC but I'll have look more closely at the linked pages for what is available. JIC is like hydraulic hose - I get it now.

Jam the button - I like!

The location of the pump on the site where I fuel and your experience of the same, it's like where diesel pumps used to be before it become the default fuel choice - stuck out back with no shelter. What did us LPG users do to deserve this?!!!

Most of the blame for it, lies with the Duty placed on diesel and reduced road tax it enjoys due to the lower CO2 emissions. Of course those don't take account of the other emissions that come with diesel. That combined with more petrol cars now being direct injection, are limiting the appeal of LPG.

This would allow the JIC to go onto the valve
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... e-adapter/

For now, the filler stays as it is and where it is.
My idea of relocating it to the centre section of bumper wont work as I didn't allow for clearance for the pump nozzle's diameter. It would also be a little bit too close for my liking to the number plate lights - live electrics if the side light are left on. Also, to change to the bayonet type of filler then leaves it protruding and vulnerable whereas with my bayonet adaptor which is normally removed when not in use cannot easily be damaged which would require a new one be fitted before any further fuelling was possible.
Unless there were once pump nozzles that screw in, I suspect my filler is a general type made to accept a variety of adaptors. The 'cover' when used is such an adaptor. Without any adaptor the filler is flush with the bumper so can hardly be damaged. With the 'cover' adaptor in place, the worst that could happen is it be sheared off leaving its thread in the filler - which I reckon I could retrieve without too much grief. Really, the filler isn't as bad as I first thought.

I have found a vacuum gauge (I forgot I had) and intend plumbing it (temporarily) into the PCV port on the inlet tract downstream from the mixer, upstream from the throttle valve. This should indicate whether the mixer is hampering higher rpm operation - or not! I'll follow that up with diagnostics when the lead arrives.
The blocking of this port (necessary to alleviate the previous situation of LPG being ingested into the crankcase) will be affecting mixture calibration for both petrol and LPG but I haven't yet properly worked out in which direction - lean or rich - possibly different for each. Not a concern for petrol but for LPG, correcting that will be worth the effort spent.

Diesel - the real driver was company car BIK tax based on CO2. Diesel drivers will try and tell us they shifted to save the planet but wallet isn't spelled p-l-a-n-e-t. Direct injection petrols though have the same particulate problems as diesels and the injection kit is heading the way of diesel's - expensive high pressure and with its own reliability issues. Given LPG's cleanliness re particulates (and UBHC) and it's simple (by comparison) delivery system(s), I have to wonder if we shouldn't be moving towards it rather than away - especially for local air quality as an intermediate fuel before full electrification. One of the traditional bugbears - fitting a tank - pales in comparison to building a car around battery packs - the new normal - but still not suited to everyone's needs or financial wherewithal - IMO.
Nonetheless, the lack of fondness for diesel on this forum for me means at last 'I have found my tribe' - in internet speak!

I've registered my 4.0 litre V8 Range Rover with the French, German, Belgian and Dutch authorities for their low emission zones. As I declared it running on LPG, all of them have put me in the same category as a hybrid so allowed to go anywhere, anytime. Yet if I was to go into Central London, I have to pay the charge as the UK doesn't give any concessions (other than £10 a year off your road tax) to reflect the fact that it is cleaner than both diesel and petrol. The cynical would suggest that the system we have in the UK is purely a money making exercise and has naff all to do with air quality.

A mixer will always be fitted on the air filter side of the throttle body and there will almost certainly be crankcase vents between them and the engine. Not usually a problem and don't forget you got the big bang you got because you ran it out of gas completely which you would never do if driving it. You'd notice the almost total lack of power long before the mixture got that lean.

Gilbertd wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:30 pm
A mixer will always be fitted on the air filter side of the throttle body and there will almost certainly be crankcase vents between them and the engine. Not usually a problem and don't forget you got the big bang you got because you ran it out of gas completely which you would never do if driving it. You'd notice the almost total lack of power long before the mixture got that lean.

Yes, but the inlet to the crankcase only needs clean filtered air and that should have been drawn from upstream from the LPG inlet - it wouldn't have been so difficult to arrange. One of the purposes of PCV is to purge the crankcase of potentially explosive oil vapours. Creating an explosive LPG and air mixture doesn't help with that objective! I can't find the 'full editor' option here or I'd post a photograph of the arrangement as it was. The two (mixer and PCV inlet) are mere inches apart.

I get that running it to empty caused the back fire - but the crankcase explosion was avoidable. Suffice to say the system has been re-jigged to make a repeat an impossibility and any ensuing niggles with that will be dealt with in due course.

But surely the PCV has, or should have, some sort of one way valve in it so it can ventilate the crankcase but not leave it open to the atmosphere? Here's the arrangement on my Range Rover where you can see the mixer before the throttle body and a breather coming off the rocker cover and connected into the intake after the mixer.



When you reply to a message using the Quick Reply box, at the bottom is the Submit button and next to it is the Full Editor button. Click on that and you have extra options, one is Insert Image but the image has to be hosted somewhere (like Imgur) and you copy and paste a link to it in between the two img commands in square brackets.

Your RR is as mine was. The (slight) difference is that yours has twice the separation distance.
From there, it circulates through the crankcase and is vented to the inlet manifold (below throttle butterfly) from the other cylinder bank via a shuttle valve. The shuttle valve will close in the event of a back fire, during idle (to enable a more stable idle) and is open at other times.
The PCV inlet to the crankcase though is unprotected and permits a flame path in the event of a back fire.
Mine now has the connection (port) on the inlet assembly blanked and the PCV inlet is now independent of the inlet assembly and has its own small crankcase filter.

I suspect Gilbertd that if you suffered an inlet back fire you are susceptible to a similar crankcase explosion that I had. Looking at yours, if the PCV hose's upper end was relocated upstream of the mixer and downstream from the air filter, a crankcase explosion would be impossible - unless the oil vapour caught light - unlikely. Primed with LPG and air, a crankcase is a bomb!

I've had a couple of backfires in the 10 years I've been running it like this (both caused by me). One blew the gauze filter off the MAF while another blew the top off the airbox. The plenum is full of an LPG/air mixture at precisely the correct ratio to burn so it does give a big bang but when that bang has a choice of going straight out through a 75mm diameter inlet or fighting it's way round lots of corners to get inside the rocker cover, it's going to take the easy route. I suspect the only reason you got a crankcase explosion was that it was before the car had been serviced and you had a lot of petrol vapour in there too. The engine isn't going to be drawing LPG/air mix into the crankcases through the PCV system as that will be at a higher pressure to expel the vapour out of the crankcase and not suck anything in.