Please help

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LairdScooby
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Re: Please help

#41 Post by LairdScooby »

Gilbertd wrote:
LairdScooby wrote:When i was first looking into converting to LPG i came across several systems that were "stand-alone" as i put it - all of them new!
Don't suppose you have any links to them do you? Be interesting to see what they are. Obviously a mixer system is stand alone and not piggy-backed onto the petrol ECU, but I don't know of any and can't think why anyone would go to the trouble of making a stand alone injection system. It would be a real pain to install too if it's going to use all the available sensors.

Here you are Gilbert :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251590200659? ... EBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-TECH-car- ... 1939072641

I can't remember whether it was just the first one i've linked to or both but when i read up on the manufacturers website it indicated it had its own fuel map that "learnt" the engine characteristics and adjusted itself to suit - in other words a stand-alone system. At least that is how i interpreted it as it didn't say anywhere it used anything like a master-slave system or anything even approaching it.

If that LPGTech system for £169 is in fact a master-slave system and i've misinterpeted the website the wrong way then i will definitely think about buying that instead of using the Stargas system.
Fairly sure though that first one (the Chinese one) is a stand-alone system, just doesn't "look" right for a proper SGi system to me unless i'm missing something.
Cheers,
Dave


Somewhere in Suffolk with a Jeep, 2 Rovers and a V6 Volvo

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Gilbertd
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Re: Please help

#42 Post by Gilbertd »

No, neither are stand alone, they are slave systems the same as all the others where the petrol ECU does fuelling, the LPG ECU just adds the fiddle factor. These are both the OBD type so instead of having someone drive around while you sit there in the passenger seat with the laptop creating the fuel map, it connects to the OBD socket and looks at the short term fuel trim adjustments being applied by the petrol ECU. From these it can see how far out its own initial map is and adjust it to get it to what it thinks is correct. Most installers agree that these make setting up easier, particularly the done in a day merchants, but most will also agree that it might get it close but never right and setting it up manually will always give a better result.

I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but I'll start from the beginning. To understand how the gas system works, you need a basic understanding of how the petrol injection system works so I’ll start there. Petrol is pumped from the tank to the engine where it goes through a pressure regulator. This keeps the fuel at a constant set pressure and returns excess fuel back to the tank. The fuel under pressure sits at the back of the fuel injectors which are nothing more complicated than electrically operated valves capable of being turned on and off very quickly.

The injectors are switched on and off, to open and close them, by the cars ECU (electronic control unit). The ECU takes signals from various sensors, engine temperature, intake air temperature, throttle position, air flow, engine revs and, by using an internally programmed ‘map’ knows how much fuel is needed under any given circumstances. The amount of fuel is altered by altering the amount of time that the injectors stay open for. At idle, it can be as short a time as 3mS (3 milliseconds, or 0.003 of a second), at full throttle under load, it can be as long as 15mS. As the fuel is at a set, known pressure, the length of time that the injectors are open for directly affects the quantity of fuel injected.

As a fail safe, the engine is fitted with a lambda sensor in the exhaust system. This measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gasses and can tell if the air/fuel ratio (the ‘mixture’) is correct. If it isn’t, the ECU will ‘fine tune’ the length of time the injectors are open for to keep the mixture correct and the engine running at maximum efficiency. This fine tuning is the short term fuel trim. If the ECU finds that the short term fuel trim is always being adjusted one way or another (maybe because the fuel pressure regulator has aged and the pressure is slightly different to what it used to be) it adjusts a long term fuel trim, it shifts the norm, so the short term trim is always wandering around it's mid point, sometimes adjusting a bit one way, other times a bit the other.

When running on LPG the pulses from the petrol ECU to the petrol injectors are intercepted and fed to the LPG ECU (which isn't really an ECU, more of a controller). As LPG has different characteristics to petrol, the pulse lengths will be wrong, they will be too short (something that is set by correctly choosing the LPG injector nozzle sizes and the gas pressure from the vaporiser). So, if at idle the petrol injectors need to be open for 3mS, the LPG injectors may need to be open for 3.8mS. So the LPG ECU map needs to be programmed to add 0.8mS. But at full throttle while going uphill towing a caravan, the petrol injectors may need to be open for 15mS but the LPG injectors may need 20mS, so at that point in the map, it adds 5mS. That is what is involved in programming the map, setting these fiddle factors for all points in the rev and load range. It is this that the two 'self programming' controllers you have seen do by connecting to the OBD port, looking at the short term fuel trims at different revs and loads and adjusting their own map to keep the trims in the centre. It's just a shame that they aren't very good at it......

Bear in mind that the LPGTech system is only for the ECU and wiring loom, you'll still need the vaporiser and injectors (as said, don't even bother thinking about trying to use 12 year old components). You'll also need things like a shut off solenoid and filters, pipework, etc. By the time you've finished you could have bought any of these http://autogas-lpg.co.uk/150-6-cylinders or http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-autogas-6- ... t=priceasc (just don't expect much in the way of after sales service....).
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97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
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LairdScooby
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Re: Please help

#43 Post by LairdScooby »

Well in that case i obviously missed something somewhere - i genuinely thought at least the Chinese was a stand-alone.

That's a good description of the fuel injection system, thanks. I do in fact have a coil of new copper pipe so that will minimise the pipework i have to buy. I was going to use new rubber pipework for the gas in any case with new jubilee clips. I really need to empty the box completely and sort out exactly what i have in there, it's always possible the injectors and/or the reducer have been renewed at some point in the life of the system so reducing the need for all new bits.

I am intrigued though. What exactly is the problem with the Stargas ECU? I've heard so many negative comments like "it wasn't very good, even when it was new" and similar but nobody as yet has said it does XYZ frequently due to abc and because of a design fault it also does jkl if DEF doesn't happen.
I'm certainly open to learning what the problems are and regardless of whether i fit it or not, would be interested to know if there's a solution.
I spent most of my working life as an engineer until i was laid off and took a different job simply to maintain an income and thanks to a freak accident ended up crippled. The engineering thirst for knowledge and fixing things hasn't left me though, nor have my engineering skills, it just takes me 10 times as long (on a good day when i can manage to do anything) to do things and a hell of a lot of pain.
Cheers,
Dave


Somewhere in Suffolk with a Jeep, 2 Rovers and a V6 Volvo

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LPGC
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Re: Please help

#44 Post by LPGC »

Difficult to find a standalone system these days. There is maybe this http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=0&. Don't know if it's still available but I expect so. As far as I'm aware, though, it isn't yet developed to have closed loop functionality.

Not too long ago there were the AEB C type systems that looked very similar to sequential slave systems featuring pulsed injection but were stand alone. There were the Etagas type systems, which featured continuous injection (using stepper motors to control flow of pressurised vapour to cylinders and then just a splitter block to divide fuel between cylinders). There are the 2 main types (both methodologies listed above) of factory fit Koltec etc type systems that are standalone.

Shoul be possible to use an OMVL Piro in compensated mode (BUT only along with a fairly complex home-made circuit) to make a standalone closed loop pulsed injection system.

Most useful current day application for any of the above would be for a new install on a vehicle with K Jetronic (continuous) petrol injection, something with throttle body injection, or a vehicle where installing a mixer would prove problematic - i.e. an older vehicle without advanced engine control.. Just about the only type of vehicle they would make sense on.

Would be ludicrous to half expect even a dimwitted installer to fit any of the above to a vehicle that already features pulsed injection, particularly a post 1999 vehicle. They are more difficult to setup, more expensive in terms of parts (for pulsed versions anyway), would introduce problems of it's own making (which would involve further parts to overcome), chances are a dodgy installer with limited experience hasn't worked on any of the above... Any suggestion that the installer might have fitted such on the GV wouldn't really wash! Particularly when the OP said at an early stage that LPGTech was fitted.

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