DIY 2002 Daimler Super V8 (Jaguar XJR, X308 type)

[markocosic]

So much for plugs!


Wired the injectors today, and you guessed it - no room to be mucking about with piggyback plugs. Chopped them off (now have plenty of male/female two-pin pairs for that temperature sender etc!) and spliced into the car harness.

On the X308, there's a GIANT black multi-plug at the back of the engine bay, towards the driver's side. (one of the resonators on the air intake trunking points at it, and it's next to the aircon filler on the photos on page 1) All the engine wiring runs through this, in a 'U' shaped strain run for strain relief, to a bracket on the back of the engine whereupon it tees off in various directions. The injector wiring runs along the top of the driver's side cam cover ("A" bank) and across the front of the engine. Sub-harnesses with all the injector wiring plugs and a 5-pin master plug on attach to the main harness at the front of each cam-cover.

I cut-n-shut the wiring in the straight run along the A-Bank cam-cover, and brought all 16 wires through the bracket on the back of the engine (for strain relief), then around the U (separate to the main engine one, but paralleling it), and into an 18-pin connector I dug out of the might-be-useful-one-day box.

Careful when making the cuts to keep track of which is which - each injector is individually wired, but 1&3 on each bank (or 1&3, 5&7 if you prefer) use the same colours. Easy to bell-through from the injector end to your new multi-plug, but harder from the "ECU" end to your multiplug. (you'd need to break the connection at that giant multiplug and count pin numbers)

I also took a feed from coil #1 (green w/blue stripe on the late 4-pin coil cars) back to that 18-pin connector. You can unwrap the car's harness, route it back to exit at the same point as the injector wiring, and re-wrap. Leave strain-relief loops: rather than turning right around a bend, turn left, go along 2 inches, then do a 180. This avoids your new wire being stressed as the harness is bent.

Whack the other end of the 18-pin connector onto the wires from the Stag ECU and you've just mimicked the way the OE ECU connects to the engine.

For the gas injectors I'm making a sub-harness that follows the petrol harness. (U-bend, engien bracket, along A-bank, over the front, along B-bank) A big multiplug from the might-be-useful-box (you need 10 pins) again connects this to the Stag ECU. Remember an extra wire from Injector #1 trigger for your flashlube system.

Also remember extra wires on the ECU side of the petrol multi-plug for your injection emulators - but not with the Stag ECU. This has built-in 100 ohm emulators that get dropped in when the relays switch. I hadn't realised this when ordering, so picked up two 4-way emulators (also 100 ohm) as well. I'm going to wire them in anyway though, as I've read elsewhere that the Jaguar ECU is finicky about injector impedance and likes to see less than 100 ohms. Easy to add it now and now use it; pain in the bum to add later if required.

How the emulators switch is interesting - they're designed to connect to the LPG liquid solenoid wiring, and they drop all the resistor in after a time delay of 0-5 seconds. The Stag ECU switches the cylidners from petrol to gas one by one. (I think the default is 200 milliseconds between switching each cylinder) Depending on how you set this up, the petrol ECU either has to drive the extra 100 ohm load for a brief period during changeover, or there's a brief period during changeover when some injectors don't have emulators on. Do other systems/emulators work this way? I'm assuming that 0 delay and making the petrol ECU drive an extra 100 ohm (small) load for a short period is better than briefly having no emulators?

They might not be needed anyhow - cross that bridge when we get to it but the wiring provision (convenient access to the "injector signal from car") is there anyhow.


Oxygen sensors. The Jaguar has some "oddball" upstream sensors. Or it is supposed to - this one has had Bosch universals fitted at some point in the past.

Here's the explanation:

http://www.wbo2.com/faqs/autronic.htm

They call it a "broadband" sensor. A standard voltage output narrowband one, but made to tighter tolerances so that it works slightly either side of stoich. Not as wide a band as a 5-wire/current driven UEGO sensor.

This is bother good and bad thing. Good, because the Stag ECU supports two "voltage based" sensors, but only one UEGO sensor. Bad, because it isn't as useful as it could be if it were a UEGO.

This particular car has had standard universals fitted - which could cause the OE ECU some headaches if it tries to tune the engine too much based on their output. It's thrown "cat low efficiency" fault codes before on the initial drive home, but I think these are down to the thermostat being sha**ed and the catalyst running at thermonuclear temperatures due to the low-temperature enrichment still being active...

Time will tell once back together with a new stat, and with the gas ECU having the OBD tap I'll be able to view the live data/codes etc to learn more.


Thoughts on plug n play vs wire cut:

Thinking more about this, I think the plug and play would probably have worked very well on a 4-cyl car with plenty of access. It'd be a piece of cake on kid bro's Rover 820, or my MX5, and work really neatly. The lack of a second solenoid wire for the rear maybe isn't that big a deal either - most people probably have their filters near the vapouriser, so you just daisy chain along the feed pipe back to the tank. (on the XJ8 they're on the driver's side, along with feed pipe and ECU, but with the vapourisers and solenoid on the passenger side) I'd still prefer to see a plug on the temperature sender though, as that's just a pain.

I wouldn't bother if I did another Super V8 though - just buy the cut and shut harness and a bunch of connectors as required for the temp senders etc. I'm going to make the tank connector-ised too (connectors outside the tank box) so that it can be removed without disturbing the tank box/seals to the various pipes. A short stub of pipe coming out then a straight coupler on the engine side. Pait or multiplugs for the gauge and the solenoid valve. JIC hose disconnects from the filler easily. Would make dropping a towbar on or other "you just know that if you make it permanent you'll need to remove it" jobs easier.

KMEs drift then? Bugger. Yes, the hexes are readily accessible - along with the rest of the gas kit. It'll all unbolt/come out in one piece with the exception of the pipe from the tank to the front of the car as I'm assuming that it'll need more servicing than anything else in the engine bay bar oil & air filters. (plugs/belts are every 50k, timing is chain and I'll renew the tensioners now for another 150k)

Thoughts on AEB vs the rest and software. Back in the dark old days, when people were selling chintzy open-loop forklift truck mixer systems for cars, AEB came along with the Leonardo. Still a chintzy mixer system, but it had idle control that was good enough for all these cars with power steering, aircon, and stacks of electrical accessories and it became the only reliable option except for super spendy Dutch stuff. Everybody could talk Leo and when they did the multipoint systems it became second nature. There wasn't really anything else wither - Eastern Europe wasn't in the EU yet, Google didn't exist, and Google translate didn't exist.

As a newbie today though, the AEB kit looks distinctly rough around the edges. Dad will always use a reverse polish notation sharp brand calculator. It's a hideous interface, but it's familiar. I'll use a polish notation Casio. I'll use windows XP with a mouse and keyboard. Hideous, but it's familiar. Grandma uses Apple and multi-touch. The functionality will be there in both I suspect, just the unfamiliar feels more frustrating to use.

The *functional* differences appear to be:

-Included petrol injector drivers
The Stag ECUs don't have any. It's either gas or petrol. You can have different cylinders on different fuels if you want to "blend" due to smaller than maximum power tank/vapouriser. You can "switch" due to smaller than maximum power injectors. You can't "blend" like the AEB based systems.

-OBD
The cheaper ECUs from both don't have this functionality - check

-Injector Emulators
These are seperate on the AEB based ECUs?

-Sequential vs pseudo-sequential
There's some debate over exactly how the AEB systems calculate the gas injectors pulsewidths. Clones of injector #1, or individually for each injector?

What's the difference between a King ECU and other brands of AEB ECU by the way?

Reducers/vapourisers/injectors on the other hand do contain trade secrets. What are the specs; really. Which break. Which need faffing. Digital kit and software less so I think.

[rossko]

Depending on how you set this up, the petrol ECU either has to drive the extra 100 ohm load for a brief period during changeover, or there's a brief period during changeover when some injectors don't have emulators on. Do other systems/emulators work this way?

Definitely not. This simply is not going to work the way you want, it is a huge design flaw to have different switching elements under independant control, with as you have pointed out, different strategies.

AEB based systems offer a plug-in module that alters the 'open' resistance of the built-in emulators. I do not think there is any equivalent for AC, but all you have to do is open up the ECU and add some resistors in parallel - if required. If you don't get P020x codes, you don't need it.

I'm assuming that 0 delay and making the petrol ECU drive an extra 100 ohm (small) load for a short period is better than briefly having no emulators?

Not really; the Stag will be dosing gas into those cylinders it thinks ought to have switched, and no gas into those it thinks haven't switched yet.

The Jaguar has some "oddball" upstream sensors. Or it is supposed to -

I believe some Jag ECUs drive the sensors in a current mode, rather than sensing voltage.

As a newbie today though, the AEB kit looks distinctly rough around the edges.

Because of the blocky graphics on the laptop interface? Bear in mind the product is aimed at "mechanics" who are probably using a PII based Toughbook in poor viewing conditions, clonky is actually practical.

[Gilbertd]

Depending on how you set this up, the petrol ECU either has to drive the extra 100 ohm load for a brief period during changeover,

It won't and can't. The 100 Ohm resistors are there to restrict the current so the petrol injectors don't open. Petrol injectors are normally around 12-14 Ohms so they draw an Amp to open, add 100 Ohms in series and only 100 mA can flow, not enough for the petrol injectors to open.

External emulators aren't needed on a multipoint system. The controller puts 100 Ohms in series so the petrol injectors don't open and sniffs off the pulses to use to fire the gas injectors instead.

By adding more, totally un-needed, emulators you run risks. If you wire them so that the 100 Ohm resistors are in parallel then there is a chance that the reduced resistance will allow the petrol injectors to open so you end up running on both fuels, you get them in series so the resistance is so high the petrol ECU flags up injector disconnected faults or, the additional resistance makes it difficult for the gas controller to accurately detect the injector pulses.

[markocosic]

Definitely not. This simply is not going to work the way you want, it is a huge design flaw to have different switching elements under independant control, with as you have pointed out, different strategies.

AEB based systems offer a plug-in module that alters the 'open' resistance of the built-in emulators. I do not think there is any equivalent for AC, but all you have to do is open up the ECU and add some resistors in parallel - if required. If you don't get P020x codes, you don't need it.

I should take more morning showers to think. You lot too - we all missed the obvious...

(the answer is set the emulators to 0 seconds)

As below:


Petrol mode: the relays are closed and the petrol injectors are connected direct to the OE ECU through a "0 ohm" resistor.

Gas mode: the relays are open and the petrol injectors are connected to the OE ECU through a "100 ohm" resistor.

If I add an emulator in parallel, and switch it on as soon as the gas solenoids are turned on, then:

Petrol mode: the relays are closed ant the petrol injectors are connected direct to the OE ECU through a "0 ohm" resistor in parallel with either another closed relay, or an (emulator ohm) resistor. Effective resistance still zero either way.

Gas mode: the relays are open and the petrol injectors are connected to the OE ECU through a "100 ohm and the emulator ohm resistors in parallel. If the gas ECU hasn't switched that injector over yet, no problem, it still has a closed relay so effective resistance zero - exactly what we want.

This "switching early" doesn't matter. AEB make a set of resistors without any relay switch for this purpose. AC don't bother - you use the emulators, wired "across gap" rather than in series - and switch them with the liquid solenoid reed. This switching is redundant but given that the emulators are only 15 euros and only a handful of cars need them it's not worth the effort of making a "special" emulator without the relays. You could remove the relays from the board and not bother wiring up the feed if fussed.

The "extra 100 ohm load" I referred to last time is nonsense. I had in mind the resistors in parallel with the OE injectors, not in series.

Switching the resistors inside the ECU is altogether more elegant though. 2 quid too, rather than 30 euros.

I believe some Jag ECUs drive the sensors in a current mode, rather than sensing voltage.

It's definitely a voltage prove on the X308s, but a close tolerance version - see previous link.

Because of the blocky graphics on the laptop interface? Bear in mind the product is aimed at "mechanics" who are probably using a PII based Toughbook in poor viewing conditions, clonky is actually practical.

Mostly the large, stylised, coloured, fonts. Not knowing any better I thought that if they put that little effort into the software the hardware was probably similar. Now finding otherwise - but already committed.

I know I'm in Pembreokshire, but we're on the CF-29 here...

By adding more, totally un-needed, emulators you run risks. If you wire them so that the 100 Ohm resistors are in parallel then there is a chance that the reduced resistance will allow the petrol injectors to open so you end up running on both fuels, you get them in series so the resistance is so high the petrol ECU flags up injector disconnected faults or, the additional resistance makes it difficult for the gas controller to accurately detect the injector pulses.

I'm aware of what I'm doing, but these cats are picky.

http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj-x3 ... cat-69281/
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9357

Simon @ LPGC (the only one here who seems to convert these explicitly mentioned the AEB 124s too.

The plan was to start with nothing, then 100 ohm in parallel with the ECU's internal resistors, and work my way down until it was happy - by mucking about with the external emulators rather than the ECU itself.

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-C ... tors-66471

[markocosic]

No dramas, no questions - good day.

Sparky side finished up and powered up. PC recognises ECU, injectors in the right pots, sensors do the appropriate thing when huffed and puffed on.

Gripe with the AC software: it won't let you connect to the OBD until you've done an auto-cal (run the engine on petrol, allowed the ECU to switch in LPG injectors and work out what the equivalent LPG plusewidth is based on the lambda sensors). The idea is that you don't use OBD for fuel trims until much later. It'd be nice to connect from the get-go, just to verify that this part works and see what codes the car is throwing, if any.

A U-581 pulled 23 codes. I guess they do that with half the engine not fitted...

[rossko]

auto-cal (run the engine on petrol, allowed the ECU to switch in LPG injectors and work out what the equivalent LPG plusewidth is based on the lambda sensors)

Doesn't work quite like that, connecting the sensors to the Stag is purely for your viewing pleasure.
Autocal strategy is note the petrol duration, switch to LPG and tweak until petrol duration matches. It relies on the host running the closed-loop aspect.

[markocosic]

Good to know! Less fussed about the single wire pickup for each sensor now. (it's relaying on the engine earth for the return; throw on some lights, 4 heated seats, front and rear heated screens, the A/C and all the ICE and that'll at least be noisy if not float completely)


Fitted the tank today and made some mounts up. 30 g decel. Call it 120 kg when full, so that's 30x10x120 = 36,000 N. (3.6 tonne deadlift) Assume tension only/two straps in action at any one time. Assume mild steel at 200 MPa yield. Area = force/stress = 36,000/200,000,000 = 0.00018 m^2 or 180 mm^2. 60 mm width in 3 mm, or 2x 30 mm width straps. Nobody sells these. (they sell Edam; cheese with a plastic coating; and the metal is < 3 mm)

Made 'em from 40x4 mm strip with M10 fasteners, so 30 mm net. Fixed holes at the car ends (and angle iron spreaders on the underside) and slotted holes at the tank end. Nuts welded to the straps allow M8 bolts to screw against the heads of the M10 ones and tension them up. Will have to find camera lead - worked out very well!

Pipework to the tank made up and bracketed. I've deliberately cut it and left a 400 mm long piece from the tank to the car piping, so that the tank can be removed/serviced. Flaring the end was not easy with the cheapie silverline brake/clutch pipe type flaring tool:

http://www.cdxetextbook.com/images/pipe_flaringtool.jpg

Made a double flare in the end, but I actually found it easier to use the mandrel and a hammer rather than the 'C' frame supplied. It invariably goes "on the pish" when using the 'C' frame, but when you're hammering (lots of small taps) you can control the direction of the blow and ensure that it always ends up centred.

Also not fun is the 'S' shaped kink in the pipe to exit the Stako rubber grommet affairs. (the solenoid valve pipe exit doesn't line up with the rubber grommet pipe exit. Pipe bender would help, especially with the 8 mm stuff in close quarters.

Also not fun is meeting the 600 mm rule in the gearbox tunnel. I ran the pipe under the floor, then across to the gearbox tunnel and up into the engine bay. There's a clamp just before the gearbox X-member; easy. There's a clamp on the bulkhead in the engine bay; easy. There's another jammed up in the gap between the heat shield and the tunnel - absolute a**e of a job. You guy must have tricks of the trade (super long drills/extensions? tiny right angled drill heads?) but I ended up using a dremel to cut/mosh/hack a starter hole, then turning a step drill with pliers whilst pushing it in with a prybar to make it round, then whacking a rivnut in. Thinking about it, that's probably where an extension/impact wrench/those self drilling self-tappers come into play. Fugly and a rot trap but easy to do - should have ordered some.


Then stripped out the LPG system again (except for that long pipe run) to clean and paint all the various brackets and have all the supercharger etc off to do the water pipes. I've got some other servicing work to do (timing chain tensioners, ABS module repair) so will have the lot in bits whilst paint dries then reassemble. Hoping to turn the key on Wednesday - we shall see!


Question on pipe mountings:

The hard pipes run from one shock tower to the other, around those plastic "false bulkheads" then across the real bulkhead. They're affixed to the shock towers and the bulkhead, but it is > 600 mm around those plastic false bulkheads. In practice they're going nowhere, but what would the LPGA installers have to say about this? It is affixed to the bodyshell, but indirectly via a plastic part.

[markocosic]

Mostly a clean, paint, and service day today.

Cam chain tensioners were the latest greatest type already - Creamers Jaguar must have done those when they did engine work under warranty. No hydraulic tappets on these; manual shim adjustment; probably one of the reasons that they're prone to VSR. (once they recess slightly they then can't close and burn in very short order) Tedious to check all the little sods, but they were all in spec.


LPG notes: The water hoses in the valley could really do with a 19x19x16 mm "Y" piece rather than a "T" piece if anybody else does one of these. Hoses run front-rear and you want the pies exiting out the rear of the valley. A Y-piece would help them on their way somewhat.

Used the wide, stainless, mikalor type clamps on these ones. 10x the price of standard jubilees but they go nowhere. (even on oil coolers and low pressure hydraulics...)

Old hoses were all about to fail; those in the valley anyhow. Buying some new hoses, going to one of these shops that sells the silicone stuff, and getting the silicone water hoses with the angled outlets for the LPG system would be the neatest solution of all I reckon.

Wrapped the exhaust near the rear silencer where it's close to the LPG liquid line. If it doesn't pass muster a bent-tin heatshield should be easy enough, though less effective.

[markocosic]

Tank back in today, hopefully for good!

Tool tray anti-slip mat between the tank and the floor. Clamped it in first then did the outlet piping. 8 mm with PVC is a pig through the standard Stako outlets - are there special versions for 8 mm pipe? Fitted the filler and realised that I've bought the wrong JIC hose, so it ends up with the bayonets at 12 and 6 oclock rather than 9 and 3 oclock. I will sort that another time, once kid bro gets thoroughly bored of grovelling on the floor to fill and decides that he wants to cut the shell. 20 mm heater hose fills the gap between the JIC hose and the Stako outlet rubber (the hole designed to take the 30 mm odd snake) once you've removed the steel liner from the outlet rubber. Tank box vent fitted and snake mounted to that, then jubileed the lot incl the outlet rubbers over the wiring and the outlet pipe. Unimpressed with the 7 quid (!) brass filler cap from Autogas2000 - not only is it damned expensive, but the chain broke instantly. Finished off with some yellow split conduit over the gas line. (ex airbag wiring from some dead car) Used double-sided foam pads rather than silicone etc to seal the various bulkhead fittings. One thing I will have to watch is that the tank isn't completely level; may have to tweak the float to achieve 80% fill.

Remember the battery vent hose when refitting. This one was disconnected and the area in the vicinity of the battery is visibly corroded compared with the nearside away from the battery. Genuine Jaguar part so probably a dealer error/omission.

Got the water feeds in under the bonnet; needed some extra bracketry to keep them away from sharp things. The supercharger sound deadening in the engine valley is getting binned. (shelved) Could relieve it around the new water feeds but it's hardly loud anynow; kid brother will probably like the extra charger whine at full chat. Got the intakes and chargecoolers fitted and refitted the hard lines/filters etc. 8 mm feed, two filters, and two reducers in an X308 engine bay is complete masochism; really don't know how you guys do this on a daily basis. 14 mm "stubby" spanner is your best friend here. Next time definitely just a big single vapouriser and switch to petrol when it runs out of huff, and to hell with they who cry bodge.

Fit the fuel rail feed before fitting the intake manifold. The cam angle sensors gets in the way otherwise. (and yes, to remove cam angle sensor, first remove intake manifold, and remove the supercharger to do this...)

Broke one of those bloody "hard" coolant pipes when stepping out (!) of the engine bay. Bother. Luckily I've got lots of M6 nipples kicking about, so drilled the broken end out, fitted an LPG nipple/nozzle, and we're back in business with a short length of 6 mm ID hose. Is LPG hose also coolant proof? (long shot)

Drilling, tapping, and helicoiling blank bosses on the engine bay plastics works really well by the way - handy pipe/ECU mounts. Also glue the little coolant level sensor (fits to bottom of header tank) into position. It never fails but always manages to fall out at the slightest provocation. Supercharger serviced and the ABS/ESC ECU repaired. (two pins reflowed)

Bankrupted after ordering engine oil and autobox oil from Opie. That bleedin' autobox (no oil changes in 150k; Jaguar says fill for life but Mercedes says 40k changes on the same 'box) needs a special fluid and up to 10 litres of it for a full change. 105 quid later...

Mostly talking to myself here to remind me what I did in the months to come, and might do a write up for one of the mags so it's a useful scratch pad.

[rossko]

8 mm with PVC is a pig through the standard Stako outlets

We did say that most would use polypipe nowadays

Remember the battery vent hose when refitting.

Yes, this is important in XJ

really don't know how you guys do this on a daily basis.

We don't, the bread-n-butter jobs are easier. When you properly cost the more extreme jobs like this one, few enquiries become bookings.

14 mm "stubby" spanner is your best friend here.

You end up with a bunch of weird size and shape tools - crowsfoot etc. in less common sizes.

and to hell with they who cry bodge.

Nahh, you'll be pleased with 100% capability - afterwards

Is LPG hose also coolant proof?

"Don't know" - it should be very solvent proof and OK for pressure >3bar and sustained >100C. Just like you, bits get used for repairs to water and breather casualties and I have not seen any especial problems later.

[markocosic]

LPG front end is in but no motion - hit a snag with the supercharger. (allowed mom to "clean" it by wiping the worst of the muck off the lobes with tissues; came back to find that she'd rinsed all the grit into the depths of the unit with WD40; dismantled it completely to remove said grit; found a cracked drive coupler and also can't remember which was around the drive coupler fitted...)

That'll be tomorrow's job then, so I can finally fit the throttle body/air intake and the various wires/coolant pipes that criss-cross the front of the engine bay. Still have most knuckles; just.

One more thing I'd do if doing this again is chuck 10 quids worth of LPG in the tank for leak testing purposes. As it stands I'll have to assemble the entire car, drive to gas it, then rectify leaks. Rectifying these might mean removing an awful lot of stuff, whereas if it had some gas in I could pop the solenoids and send in somebody who can smell the boys' activities a mile off. (said mom)

Definitely a short length of polypipe from tank to "main pipe" next time. Prefer the copper for fitting as once put it stays put - there's so little room that you really want it to stay where you put it. Polypipe would have needed many more fixings to take the same routes, which is less convenient than a thumb showing the copper who's boss.

Tweaking the water pipe routing at the vapourisers to give me a "high point" at a tee that I can slacken and bleed easily if required. "Seems ok" as a breather is good enough for me, will administer coolant air bleed pipe surgery with some leftover 6 mm hose.

Question on setting up dual vapourisers:

Can I pull the plug on one solenoid valve at a time and set the pressures on each independently (with the still connected to each other on the gas side) or will I need to clamp lines? They'e got no bleed/return so can't reduce pressure, right?

[rossko]

Can I pull the plug on one solenoid valve at a time and set the pressures on each independently (with the still connected to each other on the gas side)

That's the way to do it, while running on gas at idle

[Tubbs]

Few things....
Cop 11 says 'the number of joints and connections shall be no more than necessary for the inclusion of essential components' so running out in poly and converting over to copper would be a no no inspection wise.
Also your bayonet filler needs to have the prongs at 3 and 9 to pass said inspection. If you are planning on doing some kind of diy guide then you need the info to be right with the cop 11.

When i do double reducer installs i do the same, also you can just switch one side to petrol, pull the solenoid wire, if you pull the solenoid wire off on a single solenoid system it will log a fault and switch back to petrol. If you have two on the same wire it wont notice.
Set your reducer up and do the same on the other bank. Or you can clamp the outlet off with a pair flexi brake clamps and set it up that way.

Personally i dont have a bulk gas tank up the unit. I do have a gas bottle with an adaptor to a bayonet. Just turn the bottle upside down, turn it on and it gets a bit of gas in, generally enough to run it through the autocal without having to go out. I also have a sattelite tank, a little torridal thats set up to flexi hose thats i can screw into the reducer for when i do the front end first. Both are handy, gas for me is only about 4 miles away and its a key depot so open 24 hrs. But sometimes you just want to know if its going to run ok. And it really takes the stress off when fitting the tank if you know the cars going to be ok on gas !

[mat_fenwick]

Also your bayonet filler needs to have the prongs at 3 and 9 to pass said inspection. If you are planning on doing some kind of diy guide then you need the info to be right with the cop 11.

I can't see where it states this though. Fair enough, I don't have an official version - all it seems to be is the COP11 text that someone has copied and pasted into a Word document, but can't see anything about filler orientation

[Tubbs]

Bottom of page 12,
'pending the adoption of the common european filling system, the Bayonet fitting (see fig1) should be used for cars and light commercial vehicles. This should be fitted with the axis of the fitting horizontal. (3 o'clock and 9o'clock) '

Got drawings and everything ! With measurements and stuff.

Just below them is the old adaptors should not be used gag !

[Gilbertd]

Ah, there's the problem see. Those of us that haven't lined UKLPG's pockets with silver have a Word document with the text that somebody (and I'm not admitting who it may or may not have been) copied and pasted when somebody else (who I have no idea as to the identity of) posted the full text onto a Yahoo page. This was done purely for ease of reading you understand but shortly afterwards, I assume at the request of UKLPG, the Yahoo page was pulled. Consequently all we've got is an earlier version which says:

The fill connector shall be compatible with the mating coupling of the refuelling facilities. The need for adaptors shall be discouraged.
(An international standard is desirable and it is expected that a European standard will be issued in due course).

But no pictures or paragraph numbers so if you tell us that it fails due to the requirements of paragraph 8.3.12, we'll have no idea what you are on about. If however, somebody was to scan in a copy and save it as a pdf file........

[Tubbs]

Im sure someone could do that. Infact im sure someone not far from where we are now already has it as a word document, with the 2003 ammendments.
Really it should be freely availaible. personally i have a laminated copy in the workshop, one at home and a pristine one for sundays

[Gilbertd]

Im sure someone could do that. Infact im sure someone not far from where we are now already has it as a word document, with the 2003 ammendments.

The amendments were easy, they are a download on UKLPG site! It's the paragraph numbers and pictures that are missing from the copied and pasted Word document. Oops, just realised, if you look at the properties of a Word document it shows the author........

[mat_fenwick]

'pending the adoption of the common european filling system, the Bayonet fitting (see fig1) should be used for cars and light commercial vehicles. This should be fitted with the axis of the fitting horizontal. (3 o'clock and 9o'clock) '

Cheers for that, I have the older version that Gilbertd posted up. Although (to be pendantic!) I would suggest that should should not be used in a legal document. Certainly, in the quality standards we work to, shall is mandatory, should is desirable. But point taken!

[markocosic]

Filler orientation - yep! The plan was for 9 and 3. Accidentally ordered a 90 degree JIC hose though, so it had to be 12 and 6. Can easily be switched for a straight ended JIC hose but I'll wait to see how annoyed kid bro' gets crawling on the floor before bothering and whether he fits a towbar or not. Chopping into the shell and fitting a recessed filler opposite the petrol filler would be neato/am not going to buy multiple hoses.


Length of flexi - nope! That sir, is an essential component. The flexible coupling, between a tank mounted in the rear crumple zone of the vehicle, and a hard line that runs from rear bulkhead to front bulkhead in one lenght, is essential for safety purposes. If UKPLG disagree then they can do so in writing and it'll be attributed personally, publicly and be citeable in court.

The intention of that paragraph is fine (don't be lazy and make pipes up in sections) but there are legit reasons to have a short length attached to the tank. (essential servicing every 10 years for pressure test/replacement is the other/, as well as making it easy to have 5 attempts at a decent flare and fancy bend without having to replace the entire pipe run each time)


Matt - the "should" is deliverate. If UKLPG put "must" then the slightest deviation (argued about in court) by one of their registered installers leaves the installer high and dry. If you make it a guideline (should) then it still encourages best practice, without creating strict/absolute liability, and leaving the option of pouring scorn on non UKLPG installs open. Regulatory bodies and insurers will use "must" or "shall" but elsewhere "should" is a good option; saves handing somebody else a gun to shoot you in the foot with.


Today's progress: supercharger and engine bay "stuff" back in, waiting first start tomorrow morning now.

Britpart are horrible people - their patten part bypass hose doesn't fit properly. Had that damn crossover assembly on and off 3 times (on, doesn't fit, off and flip and on again, still doesn't fit, mark with paint to check I did flip it and on and off again and nope is just badly made) before I realised. Dry fit it, mark up the bypass hose with paint, then remove and fit the bypass hose jubilee BEFORE fitting the crossover pipe again, as it is impossible to get to the clip with crossover pipe in place.

Rubber grease (vegetable oil based grease, usually red, usually for brake caliper dust deals etc) is your best friend after a selection of forceps for fitting hoses in "you have to be kidding me" places.

Bin all "grenade" clips. These are those spring clips that you end up trying to pry off with pliers and go sprrroing across the room. They're called grenade clips in the factory, as they arrive pre-stretched with a little ring holding the clip at full spread. You push them down the hose, then pull the ring and they go "bang" and grip the hose. Removing is a different matter, especially when that blown V8 is in situ. Jubilees are cheap. Stainless is great, though it isn't magnetic so don't drop the wee sods.

MAP sensor. Where possible put a "U" bend before a MAP sensor. On Rover 800s it was common for hot oil and water vapour to travel down the MAP line, then condense in the MAP sensor. Without the heat of the engine to evaporate it it'd just sit there and slowly turn to mayo/margarine over time. Cleanable by dismantling the ECU, dismantling the MAP sensor, and cleaning it out from inside there, but much easier to put a "U bend" in the line and just blow that out when the problem arose. Might not be a concern on all engines, but having been there once before, and running a vehicle with 150k on the clock, you do what you can.

EGR. Horrible invention. Coats the intake with oil carbon residue. Ok on a naturally asthmatic engine, not too bad on a turbo engine, but it wreaks havoc with a roots blower. Uber close tolerances on these, and lumps of carbon breaking free from the EGR system score the blower and reduce it's efficiency. The greasy mess also coat the lobes, increasing parasitic losses as they're sheared past each other. (though they also reduce leakage) I've blanked it. It'll need a cheater on the monitoring line to not flag an OBD code, but that's worth the effort.

Flashlube's self-tapping nipple. Self-tapping my a**s - self-snapping more like, unless you're screwing it into Edam. When it shears it shears with the nut in your screwdriver and an unmovable piece in the throttle body. And it's hardened and will take an age to drill out. Do yourself a favour and use a small brass nipple. (I went 5 mm OD; fits the flashlube hose with a little heat from a heat gun. I've fitted it immediately downstream of the throttle butterfly, as if it were a jet in a carb. This never sees boost either (upstream of the supercharger) so should give the flashlube pump an easy time.

Chalk checks. You can buy powdered chalk for refilling the chalk-line tools etc. This is handy for checking underbonnet clearance and what happens when you try ragging the engine around in the engine bay. As standard, a Jaguar engine rubs on the underside of the bonnet at full load. There's 10 mm clearance static. 12 mm between exhaust manifolds and the chassis rails. Hoses at the back of the engine bay under the throttle body they gave up on, and clip them all to each other like a giant plate of cold spaghetti, except for fuel hoses. 10 years/100k is about as long as the sleeving on the wiring harness lasts before it rubs through.

Part load breather. This should go UNDER your valley water hoses, not ON TOP of them It's not easy to connect to the throttle body once LPG is installed if you ran it over the valley water hoses.

Throttle body connections for the cam sensors. From the factory, these are UNDER the throttle body. This is easy to assemble with the engine on the bench but lousy with it in the car. Cable-tie them to the throttle pot on the driver's side and to the steel part of the fuel line on the passenger side. Purists will hate you, but snippinng three cable ties is far easier than getting your hand underneath to disconnect these with the throttle body partially withdrawn.

Cleaning. Don't clean the throttle body with carb cleaner on these cars. It washes the s**t through the bushes into the mechanisms, and it removes all the lube that's there. Damp cloth with thinners or WD40 and wipe; don't "wash" the thing. There's a TSB out to the dealers on this subject as they broke loads this way back in the day, and they're not cheap to fix.

Brake servo hard pipe. The connection to the throttle body elbow is hopeless. Buy an M8 or M10 nipple and screw it in instead, and a short length of vacuum hose to join it to the servo pipe.

That's about all I remember from today - we'll see what happens when I turn the key in the morning. Must remember fuel pump fuses (yes, 2x of those too!)