LPG Discussion Forum

Are you referring to the old school RS Turbo? That had Bosch KE Jetronic injection which has pulses to fire the injectors, it just batch fired them all at the same time. Any multipoint LPG injection system can be made to batch fire if you want it to.

Gilbertd wrote: in this case, if you were to make something for your own use then you are free to do what you like.

.... The stuff to do the job you require of it is already out there ..... so why not just use it.

Gilbertd, aka R B Gilbert MIET, Tech IOSH

Halleluyah!!

At last, you have recognised that we've moved from "That's illegal" and "You can't do that" to "It hasn't got a stamp so it fails" to "How do I check it?" to "I'll accept a lab report" to "If you were to make something for your own use then you are free to do what you like".

I don't believe I have missed ANY points. As someone who isn't offering this for sale, I'm glad the penny has finally dropped. There are plenty of cars out there where the generic kit of parts from a single manufacturer isn't going to fit. The original poster wanted to deviate from true and straight path with just one component for a track day car.

Anybody who doesn't neatly fall into the "fit a kit" category purchased and fitted through the trade will take an interest in this thread.

kind regards
Marek

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I'm being commissioned to make an installation work to the customers requirements.

Even if you use customer-supplied parts, I would say the onus is on you as the professional to make it "fit for purpose". I've cautioned you that there is a yardstick, and your customer may measure you against it.

It's not hard to make an injector block (for example) fit for purpose. Nor any other related item. It's the most basic of engineering.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:The current suggestion by UKLPG and inspectors like rossko is that this shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Not at all. I couldn't give a monkeys what you put on a racetrack, though the MSA/organisers might (you ought to find out).
If you then want to put it on the road or sell it, there are different requirements you need to consider. The one you'd want to change for selling is E67 because you are then looking to sell your product.
Personally, I would not support changes that allow anyone to sell any old tat for LPG road use. Compliance with some kind of standard seems like a good idea if only to protect You seem to be rejecting that.

I reject that my stuff is old tat.

Most people who build an injection block are going to understand the basic engineering principles behind it. Most people who fit an ECU are going to know what is required of it. Those who don't are going to be DIYers and they can just lie through it all anyway.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:You can't pool any significant gas from the vapour side of an LPG install when the ignition is off.

Estimate : about two litres of vapour of gas at atmospheric pressure standing in yer average system. Mixes freely with air to yield about thirty litres of ignitable mixture, which tends to accumulate in your drains etc.
I don't understand your point; wouldn't you want to use suitable materials etc. to avoid the risk? It's so easy to avoid. Is the purpose to talk down the risk so it doesn't need avoiding? I can't believe you mean you think a leak is so unimportant that it doesn't matter, so who cares if rubber o-rings are used.

I do and would use suitable materials. My point is if they're not available then I shouldn't be forced to go without anything, I should be able to make my own materials.
if the gas accumulates in a drain, it won't be mixed, it will concentrate at the bottom and only burn at the edge of that concentration. You'll get a nice flash for a few seconds and nothing more.

2 litres of gas....how about 2 litres of petrol. How much gas does that produce? Does it make sense that your regs are so much stricter than petrol.

To give you an idea, you can easily have 3 litres of perfectly mixed gas/air sat in the confined plenum of a mixer equipped car. You consider that acceptable.
Now, how dangerous is 2 litres of gas in open air, really?

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:If you're happy with the rules then that's fine. I thought you may want to listen to people's concerns on the matter, and I thought you were so active in this topic because you consider yourself a respresentative of the UKLPG? I guess not.

No, I'm not a rep. I am in a good position to explain the status quo. Where am I not listening? It is true I'm not likely to do anything about your concerns, what did you expect on a user's internet forum

munkle wrote:You do realise a forum, as the name implies, is for discussion? Not just for education or technical support.

Yes. Where are we not discussing?

You basically said "that's that and you'll have to live with it". Which implies you see no point discussing it, right?


Just to add, If I go and kill someone with an LPG install, who gives a damn about the HSE, EU or anybody else? I would naturally seek to avoid it, and any repercussions following such an accident would be negligable by comparison. Get your priorities right.


I don't want to use unsuitable parts, far from it, anything I produce will be around long after the stuff you fit (some of it is great but some of it is @!##) is deemed useless. I just question that I'm forced to have no decision of my own as to what is suitable. It has been taken out of my hands because of the risk stupid people pose.
Stupid people will always stick their fingers in sockets, knives in toasters or drill through gas tanks.
You can protect them from death or massive injury by keeping the high pressure side regulated...can't fault that. You can also ruin your industry by preventing them from losing their eyebrows.

It's too much.

Gilbertd wrote:Are you referring to the old school RS Turbo? That had Bosch KE Jetronic injection which has pulses to fire the injectors, it just batch fired them all at the same time. Any multipoint LPG injection system can be made to batch fire if you want it to.

It doesn't have pulses to fire the injectors at all, that's why I used it as an example.

It's the same as K-jet, entirely mechanical injection, except for the pressure actuator on the metering unit.

Early 90s Porsche 911 Turbo? Another K-Jet car.

So what do you fit?

marek wrote:At last, you have recognised that we've moved from "That's illegal" and "You can't do that" to "It hasn't got a stamp so it fails" to "How do I check it?" to "I'll accept a lab report" to "If you were to make something for your own use then you are free to do what you like".

Now go back and read ALL of what I wrote rather than picking the bits that you like. Yes, you are free to do what you like until, for whatever reason, it has to be inspected, then it fails as some or all of the components aren't marked. No, you can't say I'll accept a lab report because the law says that the manufacturer has to get a lab report and then mark the item to say that is has been tested and meets the spec. What is your problem with there being a safety standard anyway?

It's no different to saying that you can replace brake hoses with a bit of hosepipe and a couple of Jubilee clips. You could and I have no doubt it would work (for a while) but if you took the car for an MoT, it would fail. If the car was involved in an accident and was inspected, you'd find yourself in deep sh*t. If it wasn't your car but somebody else's and it was involved in an accident then you'd be in it so deep you'd never surface.

Very few LPG systems are a kit of parts from one manufacturer. When this thread started I pointed out that Stag only make ECUs so anyone with a Stag system isn't going to have parts from one manufacturer but from different ones. People pick the ECU that they like, the vaporiser that they like and is up to the job and the injectors that are up to the job of supplying sufficient fuel right up to the red line on whatever car they are being put on.

munkle wrote:It doesn't have pulses to fire the injectors at all, that's why I used it as an example.

It's the same as K-jet, entirely mechanical injection, except for the pressure actuator on the metering unit.

Early 90s Porsche 911 Turbo? Another K-Jet car.

So what do you fit?

I don't fit anything, I'm not an installer but I am an engineer. On a car equipped with mechanical injection you fit a mixer system. To my knowledge there isn't a current completely stand alone injection system. Why would there be? I never realised we were talking about old technology stuff, I'd assumed all along you were talking about something modern.

I admit I confused the KE Jetronic with the later L Jetronic which is a proper electronic injection system (albeit batch fired). I've owned cars with carbs (literally hundreds), K Jetronic (Porsche 924), L Jetronic (Citroen DS and Porsche 944 to mention just 2), Bosch Motronic and currently own Lucas batch fired electronic (Classic LSE Range Rover), GEMS electronic (P38 Range Rover) and Marelli electronic (Maserati bi-Turbo). Of those, the two Range Rovers are the only ones I would consider fitting LPG to, the others just aren't worth the trouble (and I'm not messing with the Masser).

Gilbertd wrote:

munkle wrote:It doesn't have pulses to fire the injectors at all, that's why I used it as an example.

It's the same as K-jet, entirely mechanical injection, except for the pressure actuator on the metering unit.

Early 90s Porsche 911 Turbo? Another K-Jet car.

So what do you fit?

I don't fit anything, I'm not an installer but I am an engineer. On a car equipped with mechanical injection you fit a mixer system. To my knowledge there isn't a current completely stand alone injection system. Why would there be? I never realised we were talking about old technology stuff, I'd assumed all along you were talking about something modern.

You don't fit a mixer to a turbo system. Full stop.

If you were an installer, you also don't fit anything. The job can't be done, not because it's dangerous, but because the regulations aren't thought out.

Why aren't they thought out? Because nobody questions them. You're all petrified of the dangers of LPG ignoring what you drive about every day.

Gilbertd wrote:

marek wrote:At last, you have recognised that we've moved from "That's illegal" and "You can't do that" to "It hasn't got a stamp so it fails" to "How do I check it?" to "I'll accept a lab report" to "If you were to make something for your own use then you are free to do what you like".

Now go back and read ALL of what I wrote rather than picking the bits that you like. Yes, you are free to do what you like until, for whatever reason, it has to be inspected, then it fails as some or all of the components aren't marked. No, you can't say I'll accept a lab report because the law says that the manufacturer has to get a lab report and then mark the item to say that is has been tested and meets the spec. What is your problem with there being a safety standard anyway?

It's no different to saying that you can replace brake hoses with a bit of hosepipe and a couple of Jubilee clips. You could and I have no doubt it would work (for a while) but if you took the car for an MoT, it would fail. If the car was involved in an accident and was inspected, you'd find yourself in deep sh*t. If it wasn't your car but somebody else's and it was involved in an accident then you'd be in it so deep you'd never surface.

Very few LPG systems are a kit of parts from one manufacturer. When this thread started I pointed out that Stag only make ECUs so anyone with a Stag system isn't going to have parts from one manufacturer but from different ones. People pick the ECU that they like, the vaporiser that they like and is up to the job and the injectors that are up to the job of supplying sufficient fuel right up to the red line on whatever car they are being put on.

I asked the UKLPG and they state that you're only allowed to install and certify the brand of product (that brand may include parts from other brands) under which you trained. If you want to certify anything else, you have to go on the training course for that product as well. You aren't certified on the other brand though, it doesn't sound like you can mix and match. It only sounds like you can fit a whole kit.

Is anyone else beginning to see the problem?

You can't fit LPG to a lot of cars because the regulations are excessively strict.

munkle wrote:(UKLPG) If you want to certify anything else, you have to go on the training course for that product as well.

That's not true. It would indeed be silly. I have checked this, because it directly affects me. Individual UKLPG installers can choose if/what they want to inspect in the way of outside jobs.

munkle wrote:It's not hard to make an injector block (for example) fit for purpose.

Yes, I agree. Demonstrate that to the customer/policeman/UKLPG inspector, that is your task not mine.

munkle wrote:I reject that my stuff is old tat.

I don't know anything about it, and have no reason to think it is, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intent. Which was - if there were no 'rules', what else might we see from friendly eBay sellers etc. ...

munkle wrote:I do and would use suitable materials.

Excellent. How does anybody know that?

munkle wrote:My point is if they're not available then I shouldn't be forced to go without anything, I should be able to make my own materials.

If you like. How will anyone else know your product is suitable?

munkle wrote:You basically said "that's that and you'll have to live with it". Which implies you see no point discussing it, right?

I stand by that. I'm still here discussing it. Do you mean that I won't accept your point of view, or I'm being unhelpful not bending the rules just for you, or not rushing around trying to make things the way you want them? "Too bad"

munkle wrote:I don't want to use unsuitable parts, far from it, anything I produce will be around long after the stuff you fit

Now we're just being silly and snipey. You don't know what I fit.

munkle wrote:I'm forced to have no decision of my own as to what is suitable.

Welcome to the real world.

munkle wrote:You can also ruin your industry by preventing them from losing their eyebrows.

I don't know why you think that. It's inconvenient for you, yup. Many thousands of happy, ordinary motorists buy LPG conversions without even being aware of this stuff, just as they buy toasters. The manufacturers who get their product E-marked do innovate and develop, though their mass market is road cars, predictably. They have to innovate because the target cars keep changing! That does include high performance cars.

There is plenty of talk about K-jetronic jobs on this forum, frankly there is no nice way to do them (although many have a go). It's best to start from something else altogether. I'm no expert but you'd need a good reason to retain this stuff for a track car wouldn't you, historic classification or soemthing? When you say "what would you fit" I think I can answer for most installers "we haven't for some years".

Just to throw a cat among the pigeons, if performance is your be-all in your project, why are you even pansying about with vapour injection? Go for liquid propane injection.

munkle wrote:You don't fit a mixer to a turbo system. Full stop.

If you were an installer, you also don't fit anything. The job can't be done, not because it's dangerous, but because the regulations aren't thought out.

Why aren't they thought out? Because nobody questions them. You're all petrified of the dangers of LPG ignoring what you drive about every day.

You'd better tell that to the numerous owners of Saab turbos, Bentley Mulsanne Turbos, etc that obviously have a figment of their imagination under their bonnet then. Why do you think you can't fit a mixer system to a turbo car then? Instead of the rear of the vaporiser diaphragm being open to the atmosphere it is plumbed into the intake trunking so gas pressure is with reference to intake pressure instead. Why do you think the regulations don't allow it? By the regulations I assume you are referring to CoP11 (which you obviously haven't read) and there's nothing in there that says what you can and cannot fit. It's a code of practice that gives good engineering practice and a few rudimentary safety rules which are common sense anyway.

munkle wrote:I asked the UKLPG and they state that you're only allowed to install and certify the brand of product (that brand may include parts from other brands) under which you trained. If you want to certify anything else, you have to go on the training course for that product as well. You aren't certified on the other brand though, it doesn't sound like you can mix and match. It only sounds like you can fit a whole kit.

Is anyone else beginning to see the problem?

You can't fit LPG to a lot of cars because the regulations are excessively strict.

Why are you interested in who you have to see to certify a system? No matter what system you fit, there will be somebody who can inspect it, it's a safety inspection. Anyone trained to fit an AEB based system such as Bigas would also be fully familiar with an OMVL, Zavoli, King, etc systems as they all use the same ECU with slightly different firmware. It doesn't matter one iota if you choose to fit Matrix, Valtek, OMVL, Keihin, etc injectors, they are injectors. You say that the kit can include parts from other brands and then immediately contradict yourself by saying that you can only fit the whole kit. Again, I will use the example of the Stag kit. Stag don't make vaporisers or injectors, they make controllers. Come to that, AEB only make controllers that they then supply to other kit manufacturers. Why do you think the software gives the option of telling the controller what injectors you are using?

The only cars that you can't convert are some of the newer direct injection ones (although there is one manufactuer that claims to have produced a kit that will work with them) but that has nothing to do with the regulations, it is because you can't turn the petrol injectors off without them being cooked.

What cars do you think can't be converted then?

Ross,
yes I agree with you 100% and the key is the distinction between "trade" and "private".

In the trade, you are subject to satisfying E67 because it'll need a stamp for you to be allowed to offer it for sale within the EU. That's all that E67 does and the only thing it does. It's clever in that the obligation is on the first person to put it into the EU market for sale - they are "the Manufacturer". If Ross fits parts already stamped, he knows the original maker of the parts has been through the E67 procedure. If he makes them himself - he has to do it, because he's the first seller in the chain.

The "fun" starts where you are dealing with a private individual. They're not subject to this because they aren't offering it for sale - they are outside the scope of E67. If their insurance company wants something to say that the lpg work on their car is safe then they are going to have to find someone acceptable to the insurance company who is willing to write that letter. Ross correctly points out that he'd take some convincing before he puts pen to paper, because unlike a "trade" compliance exercise, he'll have to come to a decision as to whether an unstamped part is safe. In this respect, there's nothing to say it even has to meet E67, but he knows that were it to have met that standard, it's materially no different to him, because he can tell the insurance company something which they can immediately understand by comparison to the usual certificates. Everyone will be happy. Of course, there is no template to follow here, so the private individual has to present sufficient information before the inspector for him to reach a view.

The nice thing about using stamped parts is that they typically offer a degree of comfort to the inspector such that it is only their suitability and application which need inspection. I say it that way because the savvy inspectors with experience will know that although certain components may gained the stamp, if they have a track record of failure, or if he is being asked to endorse an old and semi life-expired installation, he'd be perfectly entitled to withold his endorsement even though E67 parts have been used all round.

It's just a safety inspection and everybody wants it to be a successful result.

kind regards
Marek

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:(UKLPG) If you want to certify anything else, you have to go on the training course for that product as well.

That's not true. It would indeed be silly. I have checked this, because it directly affects me. Individual UKLPG installers can choose if/what they want to inspect in the way of outside jobs.

That's what the UKLPG told me when I enquired directly??? Training centres say the same. "You will now be able to certify xxx brand of LPG kit". It's not just one place I've heard of it?

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:It's not hard to make an injector block (for example) fit for purpose.

Yes, I agree. Demonstrate that to the customer/policeman/UKLPG inspector, that is your task not mine.

My point is I shouldn't need to demonstrate it. Like I don't need to demonstrate for petrol.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I reject that my stuff is old tat.

I don't know anything about it, and have no reason to think it is, I'm sorry if you misunderstood my intent. Which was - if there were no 'rules', what else might we see from friendly eBay sellers etc. ...

No, that was my fault for not reading it right.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I do and would use suitable materials.

Excellent. How does anybody know that?

Nobody else should need to know, like petrol. It's why petrol engines have an aftermarket and a tuning scene.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:My point is if they're not available then I shouldn't be forced to go without anything, I should be able to make my own materials.

If you like. How will anyone else know your product is suitable?

Nobody else should need to know, like petrol. It's why petrol engines have an aftermarket and a tuning scene.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:You basically said "that's that and you'll have to live with it". Which implies you see no point discussing it, right?

I stand by that. I'm still here discussing it. Do you mean that I won't accept your point of view, or I'm being unhelpful not bending the rules just for you, or not rushing around trying to make things the way you want them? "Too bad"

Not at all, it sounded like you were ending the debate. It doesn't matter then.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I don't want to use unsuitable parts, far from it, anything I produce will be around long after the stuff you fit

Now we're just being silly and snipey. You don't know what I fit.

True, I meant installers in general... - though you probably fit one of about 5 kits available.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I'm forced to have no decision of my own as to what is suitable.

Welcome to the real world.

You're used to it then? Being UKLPG approved?

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:You can also ruin your industry by preventing them from losing their eyebrows.

I don't know why you think that. It's inconvenient for you, yup. Many thousands of happy, ordinary motorists buy LPG conversions without even being aware of this stuff, just as they buy toasters. The manufacturers who get their product E-marked do innovate and develop, though their mass market is road cars, predictably. They have to innovate because the target cars keep changing! That does include high performance cars.

There is plenty of talk about K-jetronic jobs on this forum, frankly there is no nice way to do them (although many have a go). It's best to start from something else altogether. I'm no expert but you'd need a good reason to retain this stuff for a track car wouldn't you, historic classification or soemthing? When you say "what would you fit" I think I can answer for most installers "we haven't for some years".

Just to throw a cat among the pigeons, if performance is your be-all in your project, why are you even pansying about with vapour injection? Go for liquid propane injection.

You've just sailed past the point. The answer... I don't and I can't!!!!
I don't want to keep K-jet, I don't want to keep carbs, I don't want to keep EFI. I want an LPG only car. A standalone system. I can't fit one because the few LPG kit manufacturers don't make one. I can't put one together myself because neither you, nor UKLPG will let me.

If it's OK for you and that's all that matters, and if that's why you're defending overly strict rules with poor reasoning, then that's a real shame.
As for the thousands of other people being fine, there would have been thousands of people fine plus couple of thousand extra, if the rules weren't so unreasonable.

You think there aren't other people that have looked into this and just given up because it's too difficult? Don't you find it a shame that the only people who can develop LPG are a few companies in Italy? Didn't you say you were an engineer aswell?

Would you like to show it at some point? So far, I've only spoken to a fitter.

Gilbertd wrote:

munkle wrote:You don't fit a mixer to a turbo system. Full stop.

If you were an installer, you also don't fit anything. The job can't be done, not because it's dangerous, but because the regulations aren't thought out.

Why aren't they thought out? Because nobody questions them. You're all petrified of the dangers of LPG ignoring what you drive about every day.

You'd better tell that to the numerous owners of Saab turbos, Bentley Mulsanne Turbos, etc that obviously have a figment of their imagination under their bonnet then. Why do you think you can't fit a mixer system to a turbo car then? Instead of the rear of the vaporiser diaphragm being open to the atmosphere it is plumbed into the intake trunking so gas pressure is with reference to intake pressure instead. Why do you think the regulations don't allow it? By the regulations I assume you are referring to CoP11 (which you obviously haven't read) and there's nothing in there that says what you can and cannot fit. It's a code of practice that gives good engineering practice and a few rudimentary safety rules which are common sense anyway.

Come on, a mixer system? 25psi of boost, a 4 litre plenum and a mixer system?

Gilbertd wrote:

munkle wrote:I asked the UKLPG and they state that you're only allowed to install and certify the brand of product (that brand may include parts from other brands) under which you trained. If you want to certify anything else, you have to go on the training course for that product as well. You aren't certified on the other brand though, it doesn't sound like you can mix and match. It only sounds like you can fit a whole kit.

Is anyone else beginning to see the problem?

You can't fit LPG to a lot of cars because the regulations are excessively strict.

Why are you interested in who you have to see to certify a system? No matter what system you fit, there will be somebody who can inspect it, it's a safety inspection. Anyone trained to fit an AEB based system such as Bigas would also be fully familiar with an OMVL, Zavoli, King, etc systems as they all use the same ECU with slightly different firmware. It doesn't matter one iota if you choose to fit Matrix, Valtek, OMVL, Keihin, etc injectors, they are injectors. You say that the kit can include parts from other brands and then immediately contradict yourself by saying that you can only fit the whole kit. Again, I will use the example of the Stag kit. Stag don't make vaporisers or injectors, they make controllers. Come to that, AEB only make controllers that they then supply to other kit manufacturers. Why do you think the software gives the option of telling the controller what injectors you are using?

The only cars that you can't convert are some of the newer direct injection ones (although there is one manufactuer that claims to have produced a kit that will work with them) but that has nothing to do with the regulations, it is because you can't turn the petrol injectors off without them being cooked.

What cars do you think can't be converted then?

Any cars that you don't want to use a mixer system with that aren't already EFI. I've just listed a couple.

Munkle,
If the primary problem is that most (all?) E67 marked injection control boxes are emulators and not ECUs, then you should be home and dry anyway providing that the car can crank and start on lpg. Correct my understanding, but once it's "emulating", the original ECU doesn't even know it has been bypassed by lpg.

You'll have a bit of fun with the cold start settings but if the reducer doesn't freeze up, how is the car ever going to know the difference?

kind regards
Marek

munkle wrote:Come on, a mixer system? 25psi of boost, a 4 litre plenum and a mixer system?

I admit it may be a little unwise and the consequences of a spit back through the inlet could be interesting to say the least, but there's nothing in E67 or CoP11 that say you can't. However it has already been done, and quite successfully if you look at http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8781. It isn't the regulations that are stopping you, just you not wanting to convert old technology cars with similar age LPG technology.

munkle wrote:

Gilbertd wrote:What cars do you think can't be converted then?

Any cars that you don't want to use a mixer system with that aren't already EFI. I've just listed a couple.

So you aren't talking about cars that CAN'T be converted, you are talking about cars that YOU don't consider can be converted well. They can be converted just you don't want to do them with a mixer so are sayng they can't be done. That's two different things and still has nothing to do with the regulations.

marek wrote:If the primary problem is that most (all?) E67 marked injection control boxes are emulators and not ECUs, then you should be home and dry anyway providing that the car can crank and start on lpg. Correct my understanding, but once it's "emulating", the original ECU doesn't even know it has been bypassed by lpg.

No, they are ECUs that contain emulators. The original petrol ECU contains a programmed map that dictates the injector pulse length for the petrol injectors at all points on the rev range at all loads and temperatures. The LPG ECU also contains a map that adds a programmed correction factor to each of the petrol pulses at given revs, load and temperature. So if at a certain point in the rev range the engine requires a 6mS injector duration on petrol and an 8mS injector duration on gas, the gas ECU adds the 2mS to keep the mixture correct. But at different revs and loads the correction would need to be different so it also has to contain a programmed map to keep everything in trim. The mixture control is still done by the petrol ECU, the LPG ECU modifies it's output to suit the differing characteristics of the fuel. The emulation of the petrol injectors is simply something that it has to do to both prevent the petrol injectors from firing and keep the petrol ECU happy. On something that originally ran carbs or mechanical injection, you have nothing generating injection pulses that can be modified so, as has already been said, a mixer is your only option unless you can fit the petrol ECU from a later model of the same, or a similar, engine and use that to feed a gas ECU. You wouldn't need to actually fit any petrol injectors as long as you could get it to start on LPG and get the vaporiser warm enough before it iced up. However, there was a discussion on here a while back about the possibility of using diesel glow plugs to heat the vaporiser prior to starting the engine.

Marek, thankyou, that was an excellent summary.

marek wrote: if he is being asked to endorse an old and semi life-expired installation, he'd be perfectly entitled to withold his endorsement even though E67 parts have been used all round

For an example of that, it's a simple as a badly rusted tank. That'll be subjective, folks

munkle wrote: (ref to certify anything else, you have to go on the training course for that product as well)
That's what the UKLPG told me when I enquired directly???

I have no answer for you there. I asked about this specifically, I got the answer I wanted; I do certify installs that happen to use equipment I have never been trained on. I am confident here.

munkle wrote:Training centres say the same.

Don't care, it's not down to them. It is true that it used to be that way and it was indeed quite silly.

munkle wrote:(re showing compliance) My point is I shouldn't need to demonstrate it. Like I don't need to demonstrate for petrol.

Then you advocate anarchy.
I don't agree with that, because I want to work in industry with a reputation for safety.

Your quarrel is with The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 Schedule 5 para 15 really, which singles out gas propulsion - ALL of it.

This is a cut-throat business, I have no doubt that there are installers out there quite prepared to use garden hose if it allows them to undercut competitors, nor that DIYers will and do happily use garden hose or at a pinch orange barbeque hose.
Luckily, it is at present so easy to get the correct stuff (because of the way E67 affects suppliers) that they don't bother. Most of us buy in 'kits' that come as bundles with all hoses and bits and bobs, I'd say that's the biggest single factor in acheiving general materials compliance at the moment. Doesn't stop it being thrown on of course!
I will not support you in trying to do away with benefits like that.

munkle wrote: though you probably fit one of about 5 kits available

Reckon I've fitted five different brands in the last ten years, we usually choose from two at any one time depending on application. I'd say there are about two dozen brands generally available in the UK - couple of Dutch, several Polish, Turkish, many Italian, Belgian ... don't know of any current truly UK car product (there is for lorries) though there are a couple that are based on imports.

munkle wrote:I don't want to keep K-jet, I don't want to keep carbs

Oh okay, it wuz you that raised all that ... ? Just trolling maybe?

munkle wrote:I don't want to keep EFI. I want an LPG only car. A standalone system. I can't fit one because the few LPG kit manufacturers don't make one.

I will be pedantic and say you do want EFI, you just want the F to be Gas and not Petrol. Did you want to also do sparks, manage fans, idle speed, yaddah? You never said.

Okay, that is the shape of the market. Few consumers want LPG only because it is hopelessly impractical for the majority of users. Even those few that do want LPG only start with a base vehicle that comes with a free functional modern EFI. So yup there is no longer any manufacturer standalone support from even one of dozens of them (there used to be). I expect (like me) they think a demand for thousands of such systems is a bit unrealistic.

munkle wrote:I can't put one together myself because neither you, nor UKLPG will let me.

I'm not stopping you. UKLPG is not stopping you. The law has an interest in you if do it commercially. The law has an interest in you if you put on the road. There is more than one solution to doing what you want in this thread, perhaps you need to review it. It may take some time ..

If for commercial reasons you choose to want your work signed off as UKLPG compliant, then pretty obviously you either have to play to the UKLPG rules or get the rules changed.
You can rail about it all you want, you can belittle me as much as you like, no-one is stopping you doing that either.

Or take a business approach like any other manufacturer: go ahead and create your own system. Clear it with track day organisers. Trailer it in, demonstrate how cracking it is, take thousands of orders. Now it's worth getting any oddball parts you used or created E67 tested. You are above reproach.

EDIt - better still, you mentioned VEMS - go convince them they'll sell thousands of units if only they got their product E67 approved.

Gilbert,

Now go back and read ALL of what I wrote rather than picking the bits that you like. ...... What is your problem with there being a safety standard anyway?

That paragraph simply contains phrases which appeared earlier in the thread, not specifically yours.

You are not being misquoted - it was Ross who used the phrase "I'll take a lab report". It's no big deal - he does this everytime he fits an E67 marked component anyway.

I have nothing against safety. I very much hope an inspector will set me right where there is something I may have inadvertantly overlooked. I haven't been asked for a certificate yet. I'd be quite a reassurance if someone were to check my work.

kind regards
Marek

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I don't want to keep K-jet, I don't want to keep carbs

Oh okay, it wuz you that raised all that ... ? Just trolling maybe?

No, not trolling at all, I used them as an example of why a standalone system would be useful, since you both seemed to struggle to see why I felt the current systems aren't up to the task. A mixer system is NOT suitable for a turbo, especially if you start running a decent amount of boost. It's not accurate enough, and it's asking for a world of trouble. It isn't that I don't want to fit it it, it's that it's simply not fit for purpose. I don't care what other people have done.

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I don't want to keep EFI. I want an LPG only car. A standalone system. I can't fit one because the few LPG kit manufacturers don't make one.

I will be pedantic and say you do want EFI, you just want the F to be Gas and not Petrol. Did you want to also do sparks, manage fans, idle speed, yaddah? You never said.
I just want to replace a single part of an injection kit - the ECU - with one from a different manufacturer so that I can take advantages of the additional features and install it in a more professional way than a piggyback.

rossko wrote: Okay, that is the shape of the market. Few consumers want LPG only because it is hopelessly impractical for the majority of users. Even those few that do want LPG only start with a base vehicle that comes with a free functional modern EFI. So yup there is no longer any manufacturer standalone support from even one of dozens of them (there used to be). I expect (like me) they think a demand for thousands of such systems is a bit unrealistic.

Those who do want LPG only start a base vehicle that comes with EFI already simply because they have no choice.

There would be a fair few people out there that would run an LPG only vehicle if it was an option for them. It's quite common in a lot of asian countries I've visited. I believe NZ run most of their taxi fleet on gas.

The stuff won't be E marked though will it...and it's probably a mixer setup anyway. How many people here never switch to petrol? I would say in all the time I've had an LPG car, the ONLY petrol i've ever used is during startup. LPG only is hardly impractical. Either way, the numbers compared to dual fuel are small, so it's not economically feasible for manufacturers to produce a kit any more - or could it be that because of the lack of freedom in the aftermarket, the market research is stagnant?

rossko wrote:

munkle wrote:I can't put one together myself because neither you, nor UKLPG will let me.

I'm not stopping you. UKLPG is not stopping you. The law has an interest in you if do it commercially. The law has an interest in you if you put on the road. There is more than one solution to doing what you want in this thread, perhaps you need to review it. It may take some time ..

Maybe I do. Are you absolutely sure an ECU needs an E67 approval?
Would you pass a system of a mish-mash of components?
Could I install a system of my own that isn't made up of a single manufacturers products?

I've heard one thing from UKLPG and one thing from you. I still don't know who to believe![/quote]

rossko wrote: If for commercial reasons you choose to want your work signed off as UKLPG compliant, then pretty obviously you either have to play to the UKLPG rules or get the rules changed.

Obviously

rossko wrote: You can rail about it all you want, you can belittle me as much as you like, no-one is stopping you doing that either.

Since I came into the real world, I have been much more belittling. Sorry.

rossko wrote: Or take a business approach like any other manufacturer: go ahead and create your own system. Clear it with track day organisers. Trailer it in, demonstrate how cracking it is, take thousands of orders. Now it's worth getting any oddball parts you used or created E67 tested. You are above reproach.

EDIt - better still, you mentioned VEMS - go convince them they'll sell thousands of units if only they got their product E67 approved.

Way ahead of ya pal. I'm not here asking for permission on anything, I just wanted to see what other people's views are on these regs and challenge them.

It, remarkably, seems like you see no issue with it all. Nobody else has piped up with any frustration at it. Frankly, I'm amazed at how none of you care that there can be no LPG performance scene.

Performance LPG systems? Just because it's on a BMW M3? What a larf.

munkle wrote:Way ahead of ya pal. I'm not here asking for permission on anything, I just wanted to see what other people's views are on these regs and challenge them.
It, remarkably, seems like you see no issue with it all. Nobody else has piped up with any frustration at it. Frankly, I'm amazed at how none of you care that there can be no LPG performance scene.
Performance LPG systems? Just because it's on a BMW M3? What a larf.

This forum is for helping people with LPG issues, we are not a legal body, nothing to do with UKLPG, although most know what the CoP11 states.

Stop picking fights with people on here.

You've been told, there is no market for a standalone system as people who do get an LPG conversion are doing it on a fairly modern car and therefore need to piggy back off the petrol ecu.

Now go troll your opinion elsewhere.

This has taken up a lot of time, but it's left me with just a few things I'd like clarifying for definite.

Do I definitely need an E67 compliant ECU?
Can I fit and certify parts from a manufacturer under which I was NOT trained under UKLPG rules?
In the majority of vapourisers, is the gas vapourised before being metered or after?

sijones wrote:

munkle wrote:Way ahead of ya pal. I'm not here asking for permission on anything, I just wanted to see what other people's views are on these regs and challenge them.
It, remarkably, seems like you see no issue with it all. Nobody else has piped up with any frustration at it. Frankly, I'm amazed at how none of you care that there can be no LPG performance scene.
Performance LPG systems? Just because it's on a BMW M3? What a larf.

This forum is for helping people with LPG issues, we are not a legal body, nothing to do with UKLPG, although most know what the CoP11 states.

Stop picking fights with people on here.

You've been told, there is no market for a standalone system as people who do get an LPG conversion are doing it on a fairly modern car and therefore need to piggy back off the petrol ecu.

Now go troll your opinion elsewhere.

I'm not trolling. I'm not picking fights, I'm trying to get people to speak up on the issue that - by the looks of the debate we've just had, isn't discussed much around here - in an "LPG discussion forum".

Maybe you should rename it to "LPG Technical Support Forum" so 'trolls' like me don't get the wrong idea?

Perhaps I got a little frustrated and for that I apologise if I caused any offence.