LPG Discussion Forum

None of us have seen a pic of the filler. But between us we managed to get everything else !

Lol,

LPG installation standards.....

Talking about type of pipe clips when there's a wire coming out of the top of the tank where the air tight cover should be?

LPG pipe shouldn't be in same clips as petrol pipe.

600mm is the maximum length allowed, not the average length allowed between pipe clips. Should normally be clamped every 300mm.

Should be a clip before every corner really.

But - The pipe's never going to fall off - and if it does, there's a valve on the tank which will cut the gas off. If the petrol pipe falls off, all the petrol will drain into a puddle and will stay there until someone chucks a tab end in it, but anyone can mess with petrol pipes 'cos there's no LPGA for petrol. What a topsy turvy world eh?

I hate pedantism, and most testers are pedantic when looking at someone else's work because it pays them to be - and the whole regs are frankly a load of simplistic, over-generalised, over obvious and self contradicting bull - It's all obvious stuff like don't run pipes close to exhaust... Dam, was thinking we could just tie-wrap LPG pipe to exhaust on our next install Any mechanic can work with petrol, which can soak your clothes ready for when you next smoke a fag, but some people think LPG will blow them up if they break open a pipe joint.

I'm thinking start my own none-government approved 'association' hopefully so the 'a' will be grossly mistaken for 'authority' and charge organisations like the LPGA for the joy of being a member - and hey maybe try getting a few insurers to back me up - Then I could pack in doing installs for a living and sit in an office all day making up silly rules like 'all installers should have a forklift truck to install 25kg tanks in cars', ignore my own organisation's standards by allowing vehicles to go on my 'register' when the supply chain for the components on that vehicle were not members of my organisation, and not bother inspecting many installs done by my members.

No its better than that ! so you go and buy yourself a car from the autotrader. Pay to go on an LPGA training course, you gas convert the car under the watchful eye of the trainer. So the cars done in spec to cop 11.
After a few days in a hotel you drive home with your car. Hire yourself a unit, buy a ramp, gas analyser maybe a first aid kit and a couple of fire extinguishers....get mike chapman to come in and have a look at the gas converted car that you did on the training course. Answer a few questions, suck your teeth at the fact that if the tank was involved in an accident then it would become a potential missile without the spreader plates. It gets the thumbs up and wey hey you are a UKLPG 'approved' installer ! (after they have taken your cash obviously)
But you haven't actually done a gas conversion as yet ? how does that work then ?

Lol, nice one independant, seems we think along the same lines!

Stopped counting how many I've personally converted but it's gonna be many hundreds. Done loads of big stuff too that wouldn't fit in a unit. Repaired more than converted, all types of systems and factory stuff. Amazing how many times customer says "well I had car at this LPG place and they didn't make a difference so I went to next LPG place and it went a bit better but still has problem and both places charged me blah hundred quid" then I fix the problem for half the price, a simple fault, and off they go wishing they'd come here first.

I don't like being told how to do my job by people who have less experience than me, so I have no plans to become a member. Let's not forget that the LPGA is a profit making organisation for those that run it and members pay to be in it. The government doesn't endorse them. They try to persuade insurers that all installs should be inspected by their members - so they get more members and make more profit. They falsely claim that customers won't get insurance unless their conversion is done by one of their members - I have had adverts removed from Autotrader from them for this. Jobsworth comes to mind. Ultimately, as their message is safety safety safety, if government ever take enough notice, it might become law that any LPG conversion must be type approved - and that would be bad news for customers and installers I reckon. Last I heard, it cost about £10000 to have an LPG conversion type approved for one make and model of vehicle. That meant there weren't many type approvals and costs were high all round. If total type approval came in I reckon the LPGA would do nicely and installers and customers would be worse off. I am all for safety in the context of good safe installation work and commonsense, but do we want government worried about people scratching their fingers on LPG filling points? Remember those headlight washwipes that were often on cars in the 90's - gone due to safety measures now... Cars didn't used to be made with specific towbar mounting points - do you reckon any more towbars came off cars then than now? Anyone could start their own 'association' and try to persuade insurers to only cover installs done by their members. If it isn't law it isn't seen as necessary by the government and doesn't seem to amount to much else either really.

I also think the UK bit in UKLPG shows how long this organisation may last - aren't we governed by European standards in now? Don't we have to install stuff meeting E67 standards, the E meaning Europe? Even the BS standards have been replaced with European standards. Maybe that's sad, but it's true. Same point applies to the LPGA.

Don't think you even have to go on a training course to be in the 'association', just show them a car or too that you've converted... then install just as you like afterwards cos it's unlikely the next installs will be inspected unless a customer complains to the LPGA. Like I said before, the 'tester' will often be able to comment on something on many perfectly safe installs, but that's just because many of the regs contradict each other.

Some of the worst workmanship I have ever seen / repaired have been done by LPGA approved installers, I used to take pics of bad installs and will still have some knocking about. I'm talking reducers that can be rocked with a fingertip within a sphere of about 8 inches freely under the bonnet and tanks held in with nothing but foam. I have seen reducers bolted to gearboxes! It also seems many installers have an aversion to welding, so don't bother making proper brackets for anything. It seems a lot of installers don't bother putting injectors in the right place - halfway up the manifold seems to do, particularly from installers used to converting vehicles in Eastern European countries - but things like that wouldn't be picked up by an LPGA inspector. I am also amazed at how many vehicles I see that are calibrated extremely poorly.

P38 Range Rovers seem to be the vehicle most installers take shortcuts on, when I get one coming in for an LPG system diagnostic / repair I just know that the installer will have bodged it if it has the Bosch system with banana manifold - it seems most installers can't be bothered to do them properly, which should involve removing the inlet manifold to get the injectors in the right place, so they put the injectors in the banana bit.. Put an injector in the banana bit and they're 8 inches from the petrol injectors, tickover stability and driveability suffers and the cylinder to cylinder fuelling will always be wrong because the middle two inlet runners cross over to the other bank of cylinders, so 2 rail outputs feed one side of engine and 2 feed the other side.

I dislike installers that issue bad advice, like 'sorry that vehicle cannot be converted to LPG' when what they mean is 'Prins don't make a system for that vehicle'. There is a well known and very expensive installer (most suppliers laugh at their unbelievable prices) near here who advises customers they need to look at a plate under the nearside front arch of their P38 RangeRover. If the plate has some certain numbers on it they tell the customer it can't be converted! What about those that advise single point systems are OK on P38s? They sell single point kits for P38s for more than I sell sequential kits and then advise their customers they need to change ECU chips and ignition leads, and that everyone else is wrong for saying the opposite - I have repaired countless of these when the air flow meter has been blown apart. I have no aversion to and do install single point systems on the right vehicles, but surely not a P38 when backfire issues will happen.

If anyone from an 'association' wants to see some bad workmanship, they should spend some time here so they can see installs do by their own members - many don't do bad jobs - but a similar number do.

I thought it was their own rules that stated the whole supply chain should be members of their 'association' if an LPG conversion could be approved - or as that changed now as many of the suppliers don't bother renewing memberships? I could mention some of the biggest importers here! Maybe the rules were changed or ignored to keep profit margins up?

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

LPGC wrote:Don't think you even have to go on a training course to be in the 'association'

Needn't guess, find out -
http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4DA803F3DFEFA.pdf
"The following requirements must be met ... The technician has had adequate training"
You can of course now rumble on about who decides what is 'adequate'

I confess I don't understand Tubbs point - a "candidate" does a supervised conversion, it gets the once over, why doesn't that count?

LPGC wrote:but things like that wouldn't be picked up by an LPGA inspector. I am also amazed at how many vehicles I see that are calibrated extremely poorly.

A UKLPG inspection is about assuring safety and basic emissions compliance. It isn't intended to check the system is performing as well as it should, or is even the right kit. It's not to the same requirements as installation.
That doesn't stop an inspector picking up on it, advising the owner, and offering to rectify it, but of course they then run the risk of being labelled money-grabbing-bandit etc.

LPGC wrote:(re P38) Put an injector in the banana bit and they're 8 inches from the petrol injectors, tickover stability and driveability suffers

No it doesn't, if pipes between injector and nozzles are sensibly short. How long are the dangly pipes when nozzles are underneath ... ? Either way works fine, neither is 'wrong', the distance from gas injector to inlet valve is the same.

LPGC wrote: and the cylinder to cylinder fuelling will always be wrong because the middle two inlet runners cross over to the other bank of cylinders

Yes, that is a mistake I've seen a few times, and simply rectified by moving injector plugs.

I confess I don't understand Tubbs point - a "candidate" does a supervised conversion, it gets the once over, why doesn't that count?

The point im making is that you can join the UKLPGA and become an 'approved' installer without ever having done a gas conversion without the input of someone who actually knows what they are doing. If it had anything to do with standards then the installer should be inspected over a period of months, with many different vehicles. You cant be called a doctor without undertaking some serious training, you cant even touch air conditioning without doing your f gas certification. I couldn't install a gas system on a narrowboat or caravan without doing my corgi at the time registration. There where some very stringent regulations that had to be adhered to. I had to firstly go and do a training course with them, then i had to do an installation that had to be checked over by another registered fitter. Then i had to do another install with an inspector watching me. Finally i had to present them with another installation. At that point they certified me and carried on pulling installations on a spot check basis over the first year or so.
Ok cars are inherently safer system wise. And a boat for example if you have a gas leak then it has nowhere to go, it just sits in the bottom waiting to go boom. I suppose with a car the worst that can happen is that it finds the nearest drain and collects there.
I had a UKLPG approved installation in at mine the other day. No clips at all on the gas pipe when it comes into the engine bay and crosses the front bulkhead. Injector spuds miles away from where they should be and a flat spot that you could walk through. All the wiring was taped up, they had obviously run out of solder and just twisted the wires together. Some had no tape on at all. To top it all off the injector rail was mounted on the brake servo bolt, which was loose and made it sound like a sewing machine when it was running. You could hear every time the injectors cut off because the noise stopped ! But thats not the worst ive seen. I rang the company in question, nicely talked to the owner. He admitted it was one of theirs and i pointed out the issues with it. The owner didnt seemed at all bothered. He had done a training course an 'approved' installer, but employed a couple of 'lads' to do conversions. So if i had a problem with it then i should talk to them. "i just do the certificates and sell gas "
I have a beetle, Converted by a well known UKLPGA approved company, the water pump packed up on it the other day. So during my delve under the bonnet i realised how shoddy it was. Now i knew it was bad, it runs on a mixer with a zavoli core. I bought it as a non runner on gas. Bloke said it kept going bang. Quick tune and my misses has done 15k in it.
But the wiring looks like its been done by a half blind dog, Its got earths back to the reducer, and the filter solenoid, The reducer is loose, they have used a carb change over switch and an emulator. But it was the wiring and the routing of the copper pipe that got me, the serpentine belt has rubbed through the plastic on the outside and also the tank solenoid earth wire was bared. But its ok .... its on the register !!
Im not saying its all like this but a bit more regulation i would say would be good ! But it certainly doesn't seem to be coming from the UKLPGA from what i can see.
Its just the fact that the whole industry suffers. Its bad enough without any of this kind of stuff coming through from companies registered with the apparent governing body.

I have to agree with rossko about the P38 issues, the distance for the injectors to the inlet valves is what needs to be shortest, and fitting in the top of the Banana's doesn't cause any issues whatsoever. The crossing over of the inlet tracts is a mistake you only make once, and as rossko syas its a simple fix.

You are always going to get the people who are for the UKLPG and the people who are agianst it. I, as I have made perfectly clear on here before, am against it. Not the whole idea of it as i think it could be made to work. It is just the way it is run and administrated that lets it down. They are purely a money making organisation and nothing else.
They should take a closer look at some of the installers and the installs they do.
I left when i had a real problem with one of my suppliers sending out sub standard equipment (The main office in Italy told me they were having problems) Asked the LPGA (as it was then) to get involved as the supplier was a member of the LPGA and new of the problems but were still sending them out, and they were not interested.
A customer even got in touch with them to try and help me out but they just were not interested in helping at all.
An easier target is the installer, had a letter from mr Chapman saying they were dissapointed with an install I had done, and listed a couple of issues. What they failed to check on was the fact the vehicle which had been converted by me a few years prior to this, had been in a rear end shunt and had been poorly fixed by another garage.
But the best one which was pointed out to me by the inspector Mr walker. I had an inspection, and got a customers P38 in for him to look at. Everything was fine until the emissions test and it was over the limits. checked it on petrol and it was way out on petrol as well. Turned out to be the cats, and I was told that the responsibilty to make sure the cats were working correctly was down to me, even though the car had been converted 18months prior to this and passed with flying colours. In hindsight I probably should have checked it before the inspection, but then that makes a mockery of a spot check.

Tubbs wrote:The point im making is that you can join the UKLPGA and become an 'approved' installer without ever having done a gas conversion without the input of someone who actually knows what they are doing.

Ah okay, my take was that the purpose of the exercise was to help prevent folk doing conversions without knowing what they are doing beforehand.

All this ground has been covered many times, those wanting change/more regulation/bigger MoTs etc. need to talk to DfT with reasoned arguments, and present why some other way would be better. Government don't listen to moans, they listen to suggestions.

I agree entirely, im sure it has been covered many times. I'm sure at some point, when the UKLPGA get their shit together enough to make it actually impossible for people like me to do conversions then i will have no choice but to join. The issue actually lies with companies being able to self certificate.
If we all had to take our conversions to VOSA for certification then it would clean up the industry overnight in all honesty.

I think we should just be glad that a Corgi installer does'nt have to certify our installs or check the electrics with the 4 day course which also let's them gate crash domestic electrics.

I dont think Corgi exist anymore, its all gas safe now.

Yea, it's Gas safe. Another piece of imaginative re-branding. I suppose it was to stop confusion as nobody had ever heard of Corgi and it would be easy to get them mixed up with dog breeders . Poor old plumbers, had to buy new stickers for their vans to say they done a new course.

rossko wrote:All this ground has been covered many times, those wanting change/more regulation/bigger MoTs etc. need to talk to DfT with reasoned arguments, and present why some other way would be better. Government don't listen to moans, they listen to suggestions.

we are talking about the same government aren't we, those in power now, those who listen to no-one and then go and do exactly the opposite lol

rossko wrote:

LPGC wrote:Don't think you even have to go on a training course to be in the 'association'

Needn't guess, find out -
http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4DA803F3DFEFA.pdf
"The following requirements must be met ... The technician has had adequate training"
You can of course now rumble on about who decides what is 'adequate'

I confess I don't understand Tubbs point - a "candidate" does a supervised conversion, it gets the once over, why doesn't that count?

LPGC wrote:but things like that wouldn't be picked up by an LPGA inspector. I am also amazed at how many vehicles I see that are calibrated extremely poorly.

A UKLPG inspection is about assuring safety and basic emissions compliance. It isn't intended to check the system is performing as well as it should, or is even the right kit. It's not to the same requirements as installation.
That doesn't stop an inspector picking up on it, advising the owner, and offering to rectify it, but of course they then run the risk of being labelled money-grabbing-bandit etc.

LPGC wrote:(re P38) Put an injector in the banana bit and they're 8 inches from the petrol injectors, tickover stability and driveability suffers

No it doesn't, if pipes between injector and nozzles are sensibly short. How long are the dangly pipes when nozzles are underneath ... ? Either way works fine, neither is 'wrong', the distance from gas injector to inlet valve is the same.

LPGC wrote: and the cylinder to cylinder fuelling will always be wrong because the middle two inlet runners cross over to the other bank of cylinders

Yes, that is a mistake I've seen a few times, and simply rectified by moving injector plugs.

Blaze, It seems the only bit you disagree with me on is regarding P38 banana manifold injector placement.

Pipe length between the rail and the nozzle is not the same as distance between nozzle and valve. When pipe lengths are too long, the pipe still only contains mainly vapour LPG and response at the nozzle is affected as a slightly slower response, where-as when distance between nozzle and valve is too large mixture response is affected to a much greater degree.

I agree that most installers who put the injectors in the correct place on P38 banana manifolds STILL get it wrong because their pipe lengths between rail and nozzle are then too long (as their pipes run the full length of the manifold to their rails under the manifold), but at least this isn't as bad as installing the nozzles in the wrong place or as bad as having two cylinders on one bank running from one rail and the other two cylinders running from the other rail. When we convert a P38 with banana manifold, the manifold comes off and is machined between it's inlet runner spans to allow the pipes to come out of the top of the manifold and the rails are then mounted on top of the manifold - So the pipe lengths on P38s with banana manifold on those that we convert are around 7 inches long and the nozzles are in the correct place - although of course this originally took more lateral thinking and continues to take more effort than most seem to bother putting into their installs. As another option to us, we have also had manifold spacer plates fabricated which allow pipe runs between the rocker covers and the manifold, but this would mean pipe lengths longer than when the rails are on top of the manifold so we haven't used them yet. If any other installers out there don't want to take the time to machine the manifold (now they know a better way to convert P38s with banana manifold) we are willing to sell them the spacer plates we've had made up. We have changed very many other installers work (fitted with a wide range of different LPG components) to our way for a few different Landrover/Rangerover specialists and these specialists have then reported the owners are now at last satisfied with the results of their LPG conversion.

While we're still on the subject, I also see many P38s that have reducers that are far too small for the flow requirements of the engine. Just as well for many installers that the engine warning light is disabled on UK spec P38s, or there would be a lot of vehicles coming back to them for putting right after being converted.

Simon
www.LPGC.co.uk

I am with rossko on this one, putting the nozzles in the top of the manifold and then even running straws down would be the same as running the pipes around the manifold and down between. But saying that i have converted a fair few of these (without the use of straws) and I have never had a single complaint about any running issues or idle issues. As for fitting spacer plates or machining manifolds, complete and utter tosh and you are making unneccassary work for your self.

The biggest problem that i have found when these have running issues is the fact that the inlet gaskets have not been replaced and the inlet is drawing air, causing a lumpy idle and slight missfire.

If you really wanted to do it correctly, put cross fire adapters in the injector ports and inject the LPG into the same place as the petrol injectors.

Well, this has become one of those One True Way lectures. I'll stick with what simply works.

Hi Tommo,

I don't think Blaze mentioned straws and neither did I.

I have seen many converted with the injectors halfway up the manifold without straws and it is mainly these that I am talking about. Installing straws from halfway up the manifold can get the end of the straw putting the gas in in the right place, but the cylinder to cylinder differences in fuelling (which I will come to in a moment) and hot rails can still apply depending on how the installer piped the straws to the rails and where the rails are sited.

I have seen a few P38s where the manifold gasket hasn't been refitted properly. Fitting the gasket is such a simple job it's hard to believe someone would get it wrong or leave it with a large enough vac leak to cause running problems. Are manifold leaks really the biggest problem with P38 conversions you repair you reckon? What about lambda probes going down? Bank to bank / cylinder to cylinder fueling differences due to poor installs? And through it all, the warning light never comes on.

I don't run pipes the length of the manifold - I modify the manifold so the pipes can go through the spans between the manifold's inlet runners, so the pipes between rails and nozzles don't have to run the length of the manifold - so this arrangement has nozzles fitted close to petrol injectors and no cylinder to cylinder fueling differences (on the same bank) because all 4 cylinders on each bank are fed by the same rail (rails can have a different pressure under load due to pipe runs and pipe bends - different feed pressures matter a bit when the difference is between banks of cylinders but matters more when the difference is between cylinders on the same bank).

The spacer plates we have (but haven't used) would allow injector pipes to run between the lower edge of the manifold and the rocker covers. This would allow the same benefits as above but with slightly longer pipe lengths and the slight disadvantage of fitting rails at each side of the engine where they will get hot from the exhaust manifolds even with a heat shield.

All the above I have mentioned do inject gas to the same place as petrol injectors.

So with our arrangement: the LPG goes in at the same place as the petrol, pipe lengths are short and the same length, all cylinders on the same bank are fed by one rail, the rails are out of the way of the heat of the manifolds, machining of the manifold is not hard it just involves removing some metal from the spans between the runners, the job looks neater, straws are not fitted (which can restrict airflow and hence power by a small amount) and no extra parts are needed.... This ticks all the boxes, so what's not to like? In contrast, how many boxes does installing nozzles half way up a manifold, rails very hot due to proximity to manifolds, one rail feeding 2 cylinders on each bank and different rail feed pipe lengths tick? That's how not to do it.

Simon
LPGC

A bad install may work but is likely not to work as good as a good install, or to last as long.

There are good reasons for getting gas nozzles close to petrol injectors / inlet valves, having short pipe runs, running all cylinders on the same bank from the same rail and not excessively heating injector rails. We all understand the reasons don't we?

Sticking nozzles halfway up the manifold on any install will work, but you wouldn't do that on other installs would you? If not why not? The reason is because it doesn't work as good.

Stick with what works when you could do a better job with the same parts?

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

I don't know what system you use, but the Bigas and Emer system use 4mm injector pipe which will sit between the rocker cover and the manifold, so I do actually put the nozzles underneath the maniold. However I Have seen and done them with the nozzles in the top and as I have said they run fine, If you do do a number of these you will know they are prone to inlet manifold leaks, which is the main cause of lumpy idle and slight missfire that I have come across. The lambdas do go but that gives different fuelling between banks and not necessarily any missfire issues.
I am not quite sure what you mean about getting heat into the rails because they are next to the manifold! but putting heat into an injector rail can actually help with any cold rail issues, especially if matrix injectors are being used.

LPGC wrote:All the above I have mentioned do inject gas to the same place as petrol injectors.

Who cares? We're not injecting petrol.
Petrol injectors are where they are because it's a good place to inject liquid petrol. That might or might not be a good place, or the only place, to inject gas vapour. You have to take different things into account; which is why recommended nozzle entry angles for example are rather different.
Getting close to the petrol injectors is a good rule of thumb, you can if you wish call 10mm "close" but I will allow more and think about what I'm doing and why.

LPGC wrote:no cylinder to cylinder fueling differences (on the same bank) because all 4 cylinders on each bank are fed by the same rail (rails can have a different pressure under load due to pipe runs and pipe bends

Oh for heaven's sake.

LPGC wrote:So with our arrangement: the LPG goes in at the same place as the petrol, pipe lengths are short and the same length, all cylinders on the same bank are fed by one rail, the rails are out of the way of the heat of the manifolds, machining of the manifold is not hard it just involves removing some metal from the spans between the runners, the job looks neater, straws are not fitted

That's fine, it works. It is not the Only True Way.

This works too and works properly. I'm sure it is possible to adopt other approaches that also work properly.