LPG Discussion Forum

Gilbertd wrote:Oh God, who mentioned UKLPG in the first place to start Simon off again?

As to the number of converted cars on the roads, a search of the DVLA database on fuel type shows roughly 150,000 on the road. However, of the 4 LPG vehicles I have owned (two previous and two current) none have had LPG or dual fuel as the fuel type in the V5 and only one is on the UKLPG Register. Make your own conclusions from that.

Like a red rag to a bull Richard! It was SnoozyBMW btw. Thanks for your unbiased comments.

Seriously though, would anyone in any industry say nothing while competitors, whom pay to be members of a particular trade body, tell customers that the trade body is a governing body / legislator / that they may not be able to insure their property if they don't buy from a member of the trade body / that work done by none members of the trade body might not be safe.... If they know that all those claims are tripe and the competitor enjoys a marketing advantage by making them?

Many times on this forum, and in day to day discussion with potential customers, UKLPG members get away with claims like those I listed above and they mostly go unchallenged. For all the noise I have made about UKLPG on this forum I am still a long way from balancing, with facts and what is common knowledge in the industry, the false claims that UKLPG and most of their members have told customers over the years. It is surprising that more none UKLPG installers don't join in, it would help if they did, but they might not join in because it is rather easy for them to offer UKLPG database registration too, thus they might rather silently go with the status-quo and make the same claims as UKLPG members than identify themselves as none members when the general public have for so long been led to believe false claims - false claims which most people would be pre-disposed to believing (mention gas and people think there must be some shortlist of people who are allowed to work with it, they are easily led to believe that UKLPG is the Corgi of LPG conversions), how very convenIient for UKLPG and their members!

Also like I've said before, if UKLPG messages / claims were true then I would have no hesitation in becoming a member, but they can never come true while UKLPG's system relies on installers checking their own work and when members are happy to accept cash for registering installs on the database over the phone. If LPG installs were not inherently safe we might not see installers accepting cash over the phone - you wouldn't hear of a Corgi fitter registering his IT worker mates new boiler install over the phone, but an LPG conversion on a vehicle is unlikely to gas all the vehicle occupants etc even if fitted badly.

I have proposed a common sense scheme that would have a positive effect on safety because it would not involve installers checking their own work, would be 100% inclusive of all new installs (better straight away than the take it or leave it UKLPG scheme that doesn't work anyway), would prevent anyone from running an LPG converted vehicle without changing the logbook fuel type. All very handy for the fire brigade, insurers, vehicle owners and potential customers. The scheme is almost currently implemented anyway - MOT installs now cover the LPG system. Only a short step to make a new MOT check compulsory following an LPG install, and to make it compulsory that the V5 shows the new fuel type, and for the police to check that DVLA records show the vehicle has LPG as a fuel type when they do routine spot checks etc.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

LPGC wrote:... you have done some research into vehicles that are listed for sale and have not yet found any LPG converted vehicles for sale that are actually on UKLPGs database... Sarcastic comment: Obviously all those vehicles were driven with no insurance eh Rosko?

It's always fun to make "facts" fit our preconceptions. Demonstration; the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from Gasguzzla's for-sale research is that people are dumping unregistered cars as fast as they can. Dunno why, maybe they are difficult or expensive to insure??

If they can't be made to fit, just pronounce em "Lies", simples.

Simon, you have proposed absolutely nothing. Ruminating about it on an internet forum is not a 'proposal'. Go away, build a case, and persuade DfT. Or find someone who will; this forum is ideal but don't do it by thread hijack. All discussed in nauseous depth before, many hints and tips offered to you.
Nothing happens except repetitive axe grinding.

LPGC wrote:make it compulsory that the V5 shows the new fuel type

It is compulsory to inform DVLA of the change of fuel type but they are often not interested. I bought my first LPG car, a Saab 900, already converted. With it came an LPG safety check certificate issued by a UKLPG member. This was purely a certificate to say they had checked it against CoP11 and it was safe. On it was a box for the original installers name to be put in but it simply said, Not Known. I took this, along with my V5 to my local DVLA office to be told that they needed a certificate or invoice from the original installer and, as it was not known, they could not accept what I had. When I pointed out that I'm obliged to inform them, I was told I had but as it pre-dated the emissions based system I would not get a discount on road fund licence, so it didn't matter if the V5 was changed or not.

If DVLA aren't interested when someone does tell them, I can't see them complicating things further by making it compulsory and I certainly can't see a copper being in the slightest bit interested on the very rare occasions they do a vehicle check..

I don't know how I missed your most recent post on this thread Rosko!

rossko wrote:LPGC wrote:
... you have done some research into vehicles that are listed for sale and have not yet found any LPG converted vehicles for sale that are actually on UKLPGs database... Sarcastic comment: Obviously all those vehicles were driven with no insurance eh Rosko?

It's always fun to make "facts" fit our preconceptions. Demonstration; the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from Gasguzzla's for-sale research is that people are dumping unregistered cars as fast as they can. Dunno why, maybe they are difficult or expensive to insure??

If they can't be made to fit, just pronounce em "Lies", simples.

Do you believe that Gasguzzla was telling the truth or not? How has he made facts fit preconceptions? Do you think I have made facts fit preconceptions?

Gasguzzla said he looked at a wide range of LPG vehicles for sale, checked them on UKLPG's database, and couldn't find ONE of the vehicles he saw listed for sale on UKLPG's database. Are you now seriously saying that you believe that all those vehicles were for sale because their owners could not insure them?

Or are you just using this as an example to say that comments and claims can be far fetched, misleading or misinterpreted? I think we already know that claims can be misleading or misinterpreted. UKLPG and their members certainly seem to use this to their advantage! Mention anything at all to do with gas and people's preconceptions are that there will be a government enforced shortlist of 'approved' fitters. Yet those same people might happily ask their next door neighbour to change their brake pads. UKLPG do everything they can to reinforce such preconceptions on anything to do with gas to their advantage. UKLPG is a private trade body that has set up a 'safety scheme' in order to make a profit. This scheme is ignored by most people, ignored by most customers, ignored by most insurers, ignored by most installers, is not enforced by law, is so easy to cheat it is a farce, is ignored so much that it is a farce. A safety scheme that is ignored, which is not 100% inclusive, which isn't enforced by law, which isn't practical or which is easily cheated might as well not exist at all. UKLPG's scheme fails on all points.

UKLPG member installers are no more qualified, no more likely to be experienced, no more likely to be competent or thorough than any other installer. Add to this that UKLPG database registrations can be bought over the phone from UKLPG members who have never seen the vehicle they are registering and a UKLPG registered install doesn't look like it has anything more going for it than a none UKLPG registered install really does it?

UKLPG is not the governing body concerning LPG conversions yet members of this UKLPG trade body, such as yourself, openly make the claim that it is the governing body. Even on this thread you seem to have attempted to give the impression that UKLPG is in some way much more than what it is - The 'government report' you linked to on this thread was written by UKLPG themselves, it bolls down to a letter which has been written by UKLPG and addressed to the government. I am sure most of us know how to write letters to the government! In their letter to the government UKLPG have made many claims that most installers and indeed many customers will laugh at! I bet Gasguzzla would disagree with many points in the UKLPG letter and this is after doing only the briefest bit of research without very much trade knowledge. We in the trade, and this must include you, we know that the claims in the UKLPG letter to the government would know the claims were false without needing to check numbers of vehicles for sale against numbers of vehicles on UKLPG's database!

Gasguzzla's findings reflect the real situation - most installers and insurers simply ignore UKLPG. There was never a necessity for UKLPG to ever have been involved with vehicle LPG conversions, UKLPG involved themselves and have put themselves in a position to profit from the involvement. It does not matter if someone from UKLPG helped to write government standards or which came first the BS standard or UKLPG, it is the BS standard that matters. UKLPG's safety scheme was never and is not now required because by law we don't work to private trade body standards, we have to work to BS standards. UKLPG made up COP11 but COP11 is only a simple way to achieve what is required, and that is to work to the BS standard. We don't need COP11 but since it exists if installers want to use it as an easy way to achieve BS standards they could continue to do so after UKLPG drops all pretences of having a working safety scheme.

rossko wrote:Simon, you have proposed absolutely nothing. Ruminating about it on an internet forum is not a 'proposal'. Go away, build a case, and persuade DfT. Or find someone who will; this forum is ideal but don't do it by thread hijack. All discussed in nauseous depth before, many hints and tips offered to you.
Nothing happens except repetitive axe grinding.

You know very well what I proposed but I will list it again for you here. What I proposed was:
1. Instead of most people ignoring UKLPG, everyone ignores UKLPG.
2. Instead of having a scheme that is voluntary and is not backed up by law, we should have a scheme that is mandatory and is supported by law.
3. Instead of installers 'checking' their own installs, the scheme should involve an independent check.
4. The vehicle could be taken by it's owner to a place of the vehicle owner's choosing for this independant check.
4b. Instead of DIYers taking newly converted vehicles to an installer for a check, DIYers simply take their vehicle for the independant check at the same place they would go to if a professional installer fitted their system.
5. Instead of the checks being done by people that are only endorsed by a trade body with no further qualification necessary, the independant checks should be done by people with government recognised qualifiications and government permission to do the checks
6. The people doing the checks should be checked regularly themselves. The people that check the checkers should be employed by a government department and have the full weight of the government department behind them.
7. It is already law that the vehicle V5 accurately reflects the actual fuel(s) that a vehicle uses. This is currently ignored by UKLPG yet if vehicle V5's did accurately reflect the vehicle fuel type the information could prove useful to the fire brigade. This law should be enforced. Any vehicle that has an LPG system should have a V5 that shows LPG as a fuel type. A vehicle described to an insurer as running only on petrol may not be insured if it has an LPG system fitted.
7b. 7 Could easily be enforced. Police already do vehicle checks etc as they drive around. When they see a vehicle with an LPG filling point it wouldn't be too difficult to check to see if LPG is listed as a fuel type on the V5.
8. It should only be possible to change the fuel type on a V5 to LPG after the vehicle has passed the check.
8b. Since any vehicle with LPG listed on the fuel type has now passed a safety check, insurers can rest assured that the vehicle's LPG system has been checked and has been found to be safe.
9. It is possible to achieve all of the above by simply making it compulsory that all newly converted vehicles need to have a new MOT. MOT stations that decide to take part could even be linked to the DVLA to update the V5 to show the new fuel type, or they could issue a written statement to say that the vehicle has been checked and the LPG install has been found to be safe. The owner could then present the written statement to the DVLA.
9b. Claims that MOT testers are not qualified to check LPG systems are far fetched and wishful thinking by UKLPG members. The MOT system has recently been changed to cover LPG systems on vehicles and has always covered aspects such as tank security. MOT testers have already jumped through all the hurdles to become MOT testers, they know their way around vehicles, unsafely mounted components, know that any kind of fuel pipe should not be near the exhaust. The only things that MOT testers might not already be familiar with is that LPG components need to be stamped with E67 and that tanks need to be externally vented. MOT testers already receive updates on test standards. It would not be difficult to include this type of information in such an update.
9c. If anyone has any qualms about 9b, they should compare the situation I propose to the current situation and weigh up the pros and cons of what I suggest to the pros and cons of what we have (or don't have)!

Yes I have proposed something Rosko and I have proposed it in the right place. At the moment the right place seems to be an internet forum that professional installers read. I may propose my ideas to government but I would rather do so when other installers are aware of my ideas. Most installers are not members of UKLPG, many know that UKLPG's scheme is farcical, many of them regularly circumvent UKLPG's procedures with the help of UKLPG members to get their own installs registered on this trade body's database. UKLPG still get paid even when their scheme is circumvented. UKLPG are in no position to improve their scheme even if they wanted to, they simply don't have the authority, the staff, the legal teeth or seemingly the incentive to do anything to improve safety. The MOT system that I propose overcomes all of those obstacles and more.

Why is it that when a forum user asks about insurance / safety/ UKLPG, UKLPG members can lie about UKLPG being regulators, COP11 being a standard, exaggerate the likelihood that the forum user might not get insurance without a UKLPG database registration and nobody says anything. But when such claims are disputed a few UKLPG members start to talk about thread hijacking?

UKLPG members have a vested interest in keeping things just as they are - because they gain a business advantage for making such claims. It doesn't seem to matter to some that even if all their claims were true (which they are not) the UKLPG system would still not ensure safety simply because it is not compulsory. Even to the most adamant UKLPG supporter you can say this: Would you rather have a system that ensures that all LPG converted vehicles on the road have safe installs or do you prefer a system that you think makes a minority of LPG converted vehicles on the road safe? How can it be assumed that a vehicle on UKLPG's database will be safe if vehicles are registered on that database, over the phone, without having had any sort of check?

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

SnoozyBMW wrote:The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence)

See Simons most recent post for validation of my first post

Of the 3 insurers I talked to on the phone, all wanted a UKLPG certificate.

john_d wrote:Si, didn't you say when your posts no longer require approval then you wouldn't need to write essays?

I did say that, John... Having my posts appear immediately will take a bit of getting used to

SnoozyBMW wrote:

SnoozyBMW wrote:The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence)

See Simons most recent post for validation of my first post

Of the 3 insurers I talked to on the phone, all wanted a UKLPG certificate.

Snoozy, you have quoted your own point that I previously corrected. Now I have to set the record straight again to make sure anyone reading it doesn't misinterpret your claims. Talk about 'registered installers' may lead some people to believe that UKLPG hold some kind of list of installers that are qualified / tested / approved / licensed to convert vehicles to LPG safely but this is not the case. When you talk about 'registered' installers you can only mean that they are members of a private trade body called UKLPG. Anyone can make lists or keep a database of people (with those people's permission) and then claim that those people are 'registered' since they are on their list or database but the term 'registered' doesn't amount to much if the registration database doesn't amount to much. Government does not support UKLPG's database, the law says that an LPG install must be done / checked by a competent person. You don't have to be a member of UKLPG to be a competent person. There will be some installers on this forum that I don't have in my phone book - I could say that those installers are not registered, and my claim would be correct, but it would be misleading and would be a silly claim to make. Your claim that installers are unregistered if they are not members of UKLPG is equally as silly because my phone book holds about as much weight as UKLPG's database! I would even go as far as saying that I am much more likely to know who the good and bad installers are than anyone from UKLPG. On this point, please tell everyone reading this thread how many people UKLPG staff have that go out and check that installers comply by UKLPG's lax rules, on my last count they had 2 staff to keep tabs on all their members! If this is the case then I probably see as many vehicles as UKLPG do and I am in a much better position to comment on all aspects of an install, not just the safety aspect like UKLPG. For example - If a customer is bringing an LPG system here for repair and he says it has a Stefanelli system that was fitted in a certain part of the country by a UKLPG member installer, I can more or less predict that if it's engine is bigger than about 3 litres, when I see the vehicle it will have two reducers that are both held on with a bit of Mechano type drilled bar and that the reducers can probably swivel freely, that one of the reducers won't have a vacuum pipe connected, that the fueling is likely to be way off. Such installs would not meet my standards yet are apparently good enough to pass a UKLPG check.

It is statiscticaly unlikely that a customer would approach 3 insurance companies and all 3 would require UKLPG database registration. Because if as many as half of insurance companies require UKLPG database registration then there would only be a 1 in 8 chance of that happening unless of course you selectively contacted insurance companies that you knew would give you the answer that you wanted. I don't think even Rosko would claim that half of all insurance companies require database registration, most UKLPG members wouldn't put the figure as high as 1 in 2 insurance companies. The odds of 3 consecutive insurers asking for UKLPG registration very quickly rise (as a cube) of the odds of likelihood of a single insurer requiring UKLPG database registration. So if the real number is 1 in 10 insurers, then there would be only a 1 in 1000 chance of a customer approaching 3 insurance companies and them all asking for UKLPG database registration. You must have been unlucky or got what you wished for with the 3 insurance companies you approached - Gasguzzla and others on this thread, myself included, have had numerous vehicles on LPG without them being on UKLPG's database. Gasguzzla described how he checked a large number of LPG converted vehicles that he found for sale on the internet, how he checked their registrations on UKLPGs database, and how he didn't find a single vehicle out of all those he looked at that was registered on UKLPGs database. Anyone reading this can do their own check and will most likely find the same results. Like I said, you must have either been very unlucky, set out to get the results you wanted, or out to mislead people reading your comments.

I wonder if you chose to interpret insurance companies asking for proof that the system was fitted by competent persons, i.e. a receipt or proof of fitting from any installer, as insurance companies asking for UKLPG database registration? Proof of fitting / check by a competent person and UKLPG database registration are two entirely different things. UKLPG would have us believe that when an insurance company ask for proof of competent fitting they are asking for UKLPG database registration.

Isn't it mostly insurance companies that belong to a single parent company (UKIG) that ask for UKLPG database registration? Isn't it true that most insurers are not in this group? Did you approach only insurance companies in that group? I believe examples of insurance companies that are part of UKIG are Churchill, Saga, Direct-line.

In any case, if your car was/is not on UKLPG's database, and you wanted to put it on UKLPG's database, it it is very simple to achieve that isn't it? Why don't you tell us why UKLPG is important to you? Do your reasons include any valid safety points or are they simply a matter of convenience because you want to use an insurer that is part of UKIG? Would you not prefer a scheme that ensurers safety on all LPG vehicles rather than a scheme that is unregulated and only applies to UKLPG members?

How does my recent post validate your point? What did I say that validates your point?

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

Hi Simon,
Excellent points, it seems a real worry that UKLPG are suggesting an install by one of their agents (who has simply bought into the name) is in some magic way superior.
This silly pretence is fairly transparent, but I bet there are still some less confident customers that like to think they are getting a better job if the installer produces a UKLPG certificate.
Perhaps LPG installers could consider joining the ‘guild of master craftsmen’ or register with autoButler – neither do much for the customer (other than increase the price of the job) but may give the same nominal reassurance as a UKLPG certificate. If it brings in enough business to cover the costs…..
Unfortunately (I think) your ideas are too sensible for the UK Gov to adopt. How would they still ‘look out for’ their mates if a UKLPG inspection was replaced with an independent check by someone who had been certified beyond basic install?
Historically, I’ve never been asked to put my cars on the UKLPG register – my current car is an old Vectra where the LPG kit was fitted by Millbrook before the vehicle was delivered to LEX.
When my current insurance asked if the LPG was a modification – I told them it was supplied from the dealer as dual fuel. They tell me that, in their eyes, this is not a modification.
As an aside, should it be pointed out to Scotty that whilst this thread is interesting and powerful – it’s not the usual type on this forum?
Hopefully he wasn’t put off a DIY install by thinking that full, honest and unbiased help/advice is not available from many experienced and professional installers who may or may not be affiliated with UKLPG.
Like most forums, a quick look at the members threads/messages (over the last few months) is an easy way to see the motivation (and personalities) of contributors.

kbs wrote:my current car is an old Vectra ...
When my current insurance asked if the LPG was a modification – I told them it was supplied from the dealer as dual fuel. They tell me that, in their eyes, this is not a modification.

That's right, the whole vehicle was Type Approved including the LPG. Absolutely nothing to do with modifications or UKLPGs aftermarket conversion scheme.

LPGC wrote:7. It is already law that the vehicle V5 accurately reflects the actual fuel(s) that a vehicle uses.

Wrong, the law says you must inform DVLA of any change of fuel type. In my case they chose not to bother changing the V5 as it would have no affect on the rate of VED but were quite happy I had complied with the law by telling them

LPGC wrote:MOT stations that decide to take part could even be linked to the DVLA to update the V5 to show the new fuel type

MoT stations are regulated by VOSA not DVLA and the two are not directly linked. I checked the MoT history on my LSE and sometimes it had been tested running on LPG, other times on petrol even though the V5 said petrol as the fuel type. I suspect had I tried to change it I would have got the same response as I did when I tried to change the fuel type on the Saab. I have no idea who did the original installation, had no paperwork for the system and it wouldn't affect the VED rate so wasn't important.

LPGC wrote:Yes I have proposed something Rosko and I have proposed it in the right place.

No you haven't. You have suggested an alternative to the current unofficial, as in not recognised by Government, scheme on an internet forum. If you want to propose something then write to DVLA, VOSA and the Minster for Transport.

LPGC wrote:Why is it that when a forum user asks about insurance / safety/ UKLPG, UKLPG members can lie about UKLPG being regulators

They could but I don't recall anyone ever claiming that. Whenever anyone has asked on here about insurance they have been told the truth. That they may not get insurance with certain insurers without UKLPG registration but they then have a choice of either getting the car checked and registered or finding a different insurer.

LPGC wrote:Talk about 'registered installers' may lead some people to believe that UKLPG hold some kind of list of installers that are qualified / tested / approved / licensed to convert vehicles to LPG safely but this is not the case.

Totally untrue. Have a look at the UKLPG website to see what is needed to become a member and you will see that the standard of their installs and the workshop facilities they have must meet the UKLPG standards. So they are tested, approved, inspected and, even if only by virtue of experience, qualified. The question is whether someone accepts inclusion on a list and approved by a private trade organisation carries any weight.

Interesting that reference has since been made of the Guild of Master Craftsmen. If I need any welding doing I go to a man who has been doing it for years. He's well into his 70's, only works 6 hours a day, 4 days a week and keeps the rent up on his workshop as it gets him out of the house so his missus doesn't find jobs around the house for him to do. He was visited one day by a sales rep for the Guild of Master Craftsmen and asked if he would like to join. When asked what made the rep think he was a Master Craftsman, he told him that in the 2 minutes he had watched him welding the sill on a car, he seemed to know what he was doing. The advantages of membership, which would only cost him £250 a year, was that he could put the logo on his Yellow Pages advert, headed paper, invoices and vehicle. The fact that he does not need (or want) to advertise, does not have headed paper, scribbles invoices on the rare occasion someone actually wants one, on a page torn out of a notepad and goes to work on a pushbike, meant that membership was worthless to him and proved nothing. Just the same as it would appear to prove nothing in the case of any member other than the fact they can afford to pay £250 a year.

Agreed with Rosko on his last point - Factory converted vehicles don't need to be checked. I will add that they do all have LPG as a fuel type on the logbook.

Gilbert, all moot points really!
Yes the law says you must inform DVLA about a change in fuel type. You would think they would then go on to change the fuel type on the logbook. I know that in your situation you were asked if you could provide a receipt etc for the LPG install, I believe that if you had provided a completed receipt they would have changed the fuel type on the logbook - seems standard procedure, this is what my customers do.

My mistake confusing DVLA and VOSA regarding MOT garage overseers etc. Actually I think we're both wrong, VOSA was changed to DVSA. MOT garages under the wing of a government department called Driver And Vehicle Standards Agency... The name of this government agency gives the impression it would be ideally place to implement the newly LPG converted vehicle compulsory MOT scheme that I mentioned really doesn't it!

OK call the MOt scheme that I mentioned on this forum whatever you will, a mention, a suggestion, a proposal.. One time I proposed something it was a life changing event and I don't remember the government being involved at that point! There are people on the forum with far worse English language skills than I but we don't go around pulling them up all the time eh! Being a bit picky?

Gilbertd wrote:LPGC wrote:
Talk about 'registered installers' may lead some people to believe that UKLPG hold some kind of list of installers that are qualified / tested / approved / licensed to convert vehicles to LPG safely but this is not the case.
Totally untrue. Have a look at the UKLPG website to see what is needed to become a member and you will see that the standard of their installs and the workshop facilities they have must meet the UKLPG standards. So they are tested, approved, inspected and, even if only by virtue of experience, qualified. The question is whether someone accepts inclusion on a list and approved by a private trade organisation carries any weight.

Rosko's website claims UKLPG are the UK governing body of LPG conversions and that UKLPG's site will tell anybody anything they need to know about LPG! I have had UKLPG adverts removed from magazines for claiming that unless an install was done by a UKLPG member a customer may not get insurance and their install may not be safe! Speedy claimed on this thread that the only people who are not concerned about UKLPG are the installers that are not members! I believe you agree with me that UKLPG do nothing to clear up these 'misunderstandings', are probably more than happy that these misunderstandings are common place, are probably happy that many of their members exaggerate UKLPG's standing and elevate UKLPG's position to 'governing body' / 'legislator' / 'enforcer' / 'government body' in discussions with potential customers.

I appreciate that the general interpretation of your points on the old welder back up my points and that you are unbiased, but it is possible that some people will interpret your old welder point the opposite way... Let's be clear that we agree that just because an installer is not a member of a trade body doesn't mean they scribble receipts on bits of paper that they have torn out of a book, doesn't mean that they are any less professional than an installer that is a member of a trade body. Quite the contrary! I am a pro installer, I do my books, I issue printed receipts, I take my job and customer service very seriously. I have mentioned principles before and will say again that partly out of principle I will not join an organisation that is out to assure customers of a safe install and happy to have people believe that they are in many ways more important that they really are when that organisation does not and can not do what it claims to do. I want better for the LPG conversion industry, I want the general public to be confident that they can buy an LPG converted vehicle and it will have been installed safe regardless of which installer fitted it. UKLPG pretending to have a viable safety scheme may be preventing a viable safety scheme from being considered by government. If you don't believe in a 'scheme', why pay £250 a year to be part of it and support it - why repeat and even exaggerate it's claims - why pay £250 a year when most of your customers don't care what the trade body says either, and when you can simply pay for vehicles to be registered with the scheme whenever you want...
Regarding the old welder - Having been an NDT technician (checking pressure welds at power stations) I can tell when a welder is a good un! The old welders, with all that experience, were usually the best. I have seen old guys Tig welding pressure pipes using a mirror and bending rods to weld at the far side of pipes where they can hardly reach, where there is only a 2inch gap between the pipe and a wall and where they cannot see. Some old welders have done it so often it becomes second nature, they can almost literally do it with their eyes closed. I seldom found poor roots, lack of penetration, inclusions, cracks, etc, when a weld had been done by an old timer. I also know the guy who retrained professional welders in the special techniques required to weld Challenger tanks together. The Guild of Master Craftsmen approaching the old welder, watching him weld for 5 minutes and offering him membership for £250 (after which he could claim to be a member of the Guild) is similar to the UKLPG situation... One of the (few) guys from UKLPG checking a pro installers work for safety is a very simple hoop for any pro installer to jump through and membership of UKLPG should be about as important to most installers or customers as that Guild was to this welder, but many LPG installers that are members of UKLPG try to make much more of it.
What would happen in this situation: That old welder is a few years younger and he is welding pressure vessels, (say LPG tanks ), which obviously have to be safe. In this industry there is no mandatory safety scheme, there are people doing the same job as him that are not half as good at their jobs, some do unsafe and shoddy work. It is relatively easy to become a member of the Guild but it's members like to claim that the Guild ensures the safety of pressure vessels welded by their members. This welders competitors imply that he is in some way inferior at his job because he isn't a member of the Guild, or that people might regret buying tanks that he has welded because insurers might not insure tanks that he has welded but he knows that if need be he can simply phone his mate, who did sign up to the Guild, and register his work with the Guild through his mate. Does this welder now silently accept the situation? Does he join the Guild and pay £250 for the privilege even though he believes all the Guilds and it's members claims to be lies and believes that the Guild is actually preventing all welded tanks from being safe? Does he point out the untruths in the Guild and it's members claims whenever they are made and discuss the situation with others in his industry with a view to a positive change in safety and a leveling of the playing field?

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

You've missed the point totally on Tom the welder. He is good, he's actually a retired sheet metal fabricator who can also weld, but the sales rep from the G of MC wouldn't have known a good welder from a bad one and he only stood and watched for 2 minutes because Tom could see he was a salesman and not a customer so carried on working until it was convenient to stop. In the same way as he wouldn't know a good painter and decorator from a bad one but that didn't stop him offering membership to the guy in the unit next door. Or the dodgy mechanic two doors down who seems to break more cars for spares than he repairs, or ALL of the other tradespeople in the units. My point is that anyone can become a member of the Guild of Master Craftsmen if they are prepared to pay £250 a year membership.

Unlike UKLPG who do at least set standards and vet those that want to become members, something you've been implying that they don't do.

I didn't miss all points on the welder! I know you meant he was good even though the the GoMC had no way of knowing that.

The GoMC would argue that they DID vet the welder - I would certainly agree with you that the GoMD didn't vet the welder properly, like you I would say 2 minutes is too short a time to judge if the welder deserved to be labelled 'master craftsman', like you I would suspect that the salesman probably didn't have any relevant qualifications or experience to be in a position to judge the welder.

You say that UKLPG vet installers before membership. This only involves someone from UKLPG inspecting a vehicle that an installer has converted. What qualifications or rights does the person from UKLPG have to do this? There are many different LPG components / tanks etc on the market, could this guy from UKLPG do as good a job himself? Following the pass the installer gains UKLPG member installer status and is 'allowed' to vet their own work...

This time you said 'UKLPG set standards' Gilbert. Again I will remind people that UKLPG do not set standards, they are not a legislator, they are not in a position to set standards. The standard is the BS standard, UKLPG only came up with COP11 which is a code of practice designed as an easy to read / understand way to achieve the required standard.

OK, someone from UKLPG may occasionally check installs done by member installers but UKLPG do not seem to publish information on how often these further checks are done and do not publish information on how many staff they have for this purpose. Some people in the trade say that UKLPG employ only two people to both vet new installers and existing installers. If we had the figures we could do some simple maths to calculate how often existing installers are vetted but if UKLPG really do only employ a few people for that purpose the sample frequency of any existing member is not going to be very high, is it? We have UKLPG members on this forum whom have been members of UKLPG for many years, only a few of them have mentioned being sampled and those few seem to refer to a single time they were sampled rather than an ongoing regular sampling scheme that people might expect.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

SnoozyBMW wrote:

SnoozyBMW wrote:The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence)

See Simons most recent post for validation of my first post

Of the 3 insurers I talked to on the phone, all wanted a UKLPG certificate.

I am not a hard core DIYer. I am not a unregistered installer. I am a hard working professional. I was not at all bothered by UKLPG registration as it did not offer any benefits to me.

Over the last 3 years, only one insurer I spoke to wanted a certificate. So there you go. A counter to your statement. And all it proves is that there are two sides to the equation and that your method of tarring everyone with the same brush doesn't really work.

Apologies for the thread hijack, but SnootyBMW's attitude of holier than thou, just because he drives a BMW is starting to wind me up. It also reminds me why I sold my E92 335i, because all BMW drivers are dickheads. Whoops, did I just do what SnootyBMW did in his post?

LPGC wrote:The GoMC would argue that they DID vet the welder

I bet they wouldn't, no more than they would claim they vetted the work of the painter and decorator who just happened to be unloading his van at his unit, they'd never seen any of his work, or that of the mechanic, builder and anyof the other tradesmen they tried to sign up. It's a worthless logo to put on you letterhead to make anyone look respectable.

LPGC wrote:You say that UKLPG vet installers before membership. This only involves someone from UKLPG inspecting a vehicle that an installer has converted.

and the workshop premises, equipment, etc.

LPGC wrote:What qualifications or rights does the person from UKLPG have to do this? There are many different LPG components / tanks etc on the market, could this guy from UKLPG do as good a job himself?

I have no qualifications (not in LPG installations anyway) but can tell good workmanship from bad, what more is needed other than a knowledge of CoP11 to be able to see if a job has been done properly or not?

LPGC wrote:This time you said 'UKLPG set standards' Gilbert.

No I bloody didn't and never have. What I said was "you will see that the standard of their installs and the workshop facilities they have must meet the UKLPG standards". Note standards not Standards, meaning that they expect to see a clean and tidy, properly equipped workshop, fitted with a vehicle lift, exhaust gas analyser, etc. A suitable place for the work to be carried out and not a bit of waste ground with a hole dug into it that can be used as a pit. The word standard was used in the same context as saying that the hotel you booked for your holiday did not come up to the standard you expected. I know the difference between Codes of Practice, Standards, Laws, Statutes, Acts, Statutory Instruments, etc I work with them every day.

LPGC wrote:We have UKLPG members on this forum whom have been members of UKLPG for many years, only a few of them have mentioned being sampled and those few seem to refer to a single time they were sampled rather than an ongoing regular sampling scheme that people might expect.

and what would you expect? Installers on this forum are the better ones, the dodgy ones will keep their heads down. Those doing the inspections will know who are good and who are not so good so why bother wasting their time checking installations that they know will be fine, with limited resources you concentrate on the ones that you know you are likely to find something wrong.

I am normally on side with Simon in regards to UKLPG however with a lack of alternative I am starting to feel that as an installer you are better in that out. Yes in years gone by they were pretty bad an 90% of the most dodgy installs that I would see were done by LPGA (at the time) members. They have been also very good in making themselves look like a governing body and that is it a legal requirement to be "approved".

Putting the past where it is behind us what are they doing now? John Walker is now doing random inspections at least once a year for each installer (more often for new installers) and is also grading the quality of installation with iirc Pass, Good and Excellent. If customers were aware of this then I'm sure you would be choosing the installer with the Excellent grade rather than just a pass.

I have been very tempted to join up myself and eventually one day may find myself doing so but at the moment the independent inspection of my work is working just fine for me.

At the moment UKLPG are doing something even if not much to try and protect their members from the "dun in a day" converters but to a fair extent I think it is a case of too little too late tbh. I know if I was a paid up member I would be getting my points over regarding some of the issues and doing what I could to get some of the cowboys off.


I'm not saying you have to join up but it might not be a bad idea. My guess is you are in a similar boat and it just would not pay off for you.

Perhaps if you were not so anti UKLPG to the point of wanting to dispose of them completely and Rossko was not so pro UKLPG to the joint of making sure Mike Chapman has a nice shinny ring and the 2 of you met somewhere in the middle then topics that mention UKLPG would not divert off on a tangent.

indyjukebox wrote:

SnoozyBMW wrote:

SnoozyBMW wrote:The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence)

See Simons most recent post for validation of my first post

Of the 3 insurers I talked to on the phone, all wanted a UKLPG certificate.

I am not a hard core DIYer. I am not a unregistered installer. I am a hard working professional. I was not at all bothered by UKLPG registration as it did not offer any benefits to me.

Over the last 3 years, only one insurer I spoke to wanted a certificate. So there you go. A counter to your statement. And all it proves is that there are two sides to the equation and that your method of tarring everyone with the same brush doesn't really work.

Apologies for the thread hijack, but SnootyBMW's attitude of holier than thou, just because he drives a BMW is starting to wind me up. It also reminds me why I sold my E92 335i, because all BMW drivers are dickheads. Whoops, did I just do what SnootyBMW did in his post?

So yes you are against any regulation within the automotive LPG industry.

Like i said, personally i feel the industry would be better without unregistered installs. Obviously that annoys you but that doesn't surprise me. It annoys me that there are people conducting installs in an unregistered manner. We are on opposing sides of the discussion but i don't need to drop down to your level of name calling.

And i never mentioned anything whatsoever about BMW in any of the discussions so please keep your prejudices to yourself.

But you are still missing the point that there is no official body to register with

Tubbs wrote:John walker strikes me as a very competent engineer. He is also a boat safety examiner. And gas safe registered I would wager.
As he randomly inspects members work, also works on member certification.
A very measured approach I would say.

Johnie Walker strikes me as a brand of whisky! He isn't inspecting boats in this job. Gas safe is more concerned with ensuring boiler exhaust gasses don't enter peoples houses. I have sold LPG DIY kits to Gas Safe registered fitters and they have needed as much technical support as other DIY fitters.

Most installers have relevant skills and experience, even DIYers, if they didn't they couldn't do the job. I am sure John can tell if an LPG install is safe or not just like the rest of us... Now define 'measured approach' and 'strikes you' in quantifiable terms. UKLPG members or not, all installers probably have a 'measured approach' and would 'strike you' as being capable of installing or checking an LPG system on a vehicle. UKLPG's own attitude must be that this is all irrelevant, UKLPG certainly seem to think there is a need to inspect people with measured approaches and completely relevant skills and/or qualifications. No mention of John Walker having directly appropriate skills or qualifications, no mention of John Walker being assigned any authority by the government?

Mention UKLPG and only the same couple of names keep cropping up. Are these couple of people the only staff that UKLPG have? Because it seems there are only these couple of staff to keep tabs on the whole industry or at least all UKLPG members? How many members does UKLPG claim to have? Probably very handy for UKLPG that they don't seem to list any numbers (except in letters to the government when they suddenly seem to have all the numbers)... Not listing numbers prevents people from doing maths like this set: If UKLPG employed say 2 staff to inspect members work, then if they only had 2000 members that would involve each staff member checking 1000 vehicles per year each, based on each UKLPG installer having one of his conversions checked every year. Except the same staff must also be involved in inspecting installers that are attempting to gain entry to UKLPG, so the number of inspections will be way above 1000 if they are really getting more members.. Over recent years we have had an influx of Polish installers. Many of these offer UKLPG registered installs. UKLPG staff must have been very busy going around inspecting all these new installers then? Or are most of these installers cheating UKLPG's system like I have described is easily possible? If it is easy to cheat the system, doesn't that make UKLPG's scheme meaningless? Again I will point out that a simple MOT, following an LPG conversion, would inspect 100% of all newly converted vehicles.

Gilbertd wrote:LPGC wrote:
This time you said 'UKLPG set standards' Gilbert.
No I bloody didn't and never have

Gilbertd wrote:Unlike UKLPG who do at least set standards and vet those that want to become members, something you've been implying that they don't do.

Yes you bloody did Gilbert!

More moot points, mate! Both you and I wouldn't agree with GoMC yet GoMC did watch the welder work and GoMC COULD argue that this constituted their vetting. You and I cannot argue that the welder was not vetted, someone from GoMC did watch the welder work. We can only argue that the vetting was meaningless as it wasn't fit for purpose and of course we would be correct to make that argument. But members of the general public, who look at the GoMC website at http://www.guildmc.com may very well assume that proper vetting has been done, filling in the blanks themselves they may assume that a welder who is a member of this Guild of Master Craftsmen has passed a very thorough and difficult to pass vetting procedure and the GoMC do nothing to clear up any such 'misunderstandings' or 'misinterpretations' - Indeed the GoMC and their members can only benefit from such misunderstandings and misinterpretations... Like I have said often, when such claims relate to anything concerned with gas like vehicle LPG installations, the general public naturally assume that there must be some kind of registered installers, so the general public are even more quick to assume that UKLPG hold such a list of 'registered' installers and UKLPG seem to play on this as much as possible.

We are only really arguing about what constitutes meaningful vetting procedures in the cases of both Gomc and UKLPG. Now imagine a situation where GoMC members in a specific trade start to 'advise' customers that GoMC is that industry's governing body and that others in the trade that are not members of the GoMC, or those others services, are in some ways inferior. Let's apply this to your trade Gilbert - I believe you are/were involved in checking radio equipment. Lets suppose there was no DTI department that oversaw / governed /licensed people in your trade to check/work on radio equipment. You know that you are very competent at your job but there are others in your trade who have joined GoMC and they start spreading the message that you are not as competent as they (because they are checked / assured / approved by Gomc and you are not) and that peoples radio equipment might be un-insurable after you have looked at their radios because you are not a member of GoMC. Would you say nothing? Would you roll over and pay GoMC £250 to become a member and a fee every time you check a radio, then repeat the same GoMC member quotes that put your back up in the first place? Or would you correct GoMC members at every opportunity when they publicly state misinformation and also try to get a consensus in your trade that a change should be made to a scheme that is meaningful, that does reflect your skills in the industry, that prevents people in your trade from making silly claims?

As a side note, UKLPG's website, perhaps cheekily, has a section advising the fire brigade on how to identify an LPG converted vehicle! Here is an obvious suggestion for UKLPG - Slightly amend your 'safety system' to make it compulsory that vehicles on your own 'safety' database have had the logbooks changed to show LPG as a fuel type and remove vehicles from your database if within a given period the logbook is not changed as an incentive for people to change the logbook. Push for this common sense safety improvement across the whole industry not just with those vehicles on your database. 'Lobby the government' to get this change done, the government shouldn't take much of a shove, there are already laws that say the DVLA must be advised of a change in fuel types and the DVLA do change fuel types on logbooks given proof of an install by a competent person (a competent person does not mean only UKLPG installers but any competent installer). For all UKLPG's claims of safety, this is an absolutely obvious gaping hole in any safety scheme relevant to LPG converted vehicles. UKLPG acknowledge that the fire brigade might like this information on their website, a simple change would allow the fire brigade to check the number plate of a vehicle on fire and know if it did have an LPG conversion. The scheme I proposed to other installers on this forum (mentioned / suggested if you want to get into nit picking) would soon have all LPG converted vehicles showing LPG as a fuel type on the logbook. UKLPG and their members who write on this forum claim that UKLPG is in a position to influence the government so let them influence the government to make this common sense change. If they cannot influence the government then at least they can make the change for their own members. One reason UKLPG might not have done this could be because as a consequence this would highlight the fact that there are a great many more LPG vehicles on the road than there are on UKLPGs database, thus highlighting the fact that UKLPG lie in their letters to government when they say most installers are members of their trade body and that most LPG converted vehicles are on their database.

What difference should workshop premises or equipment make other than adding conveniences for the installer? Isn't it the end result that matters? What kind of premises and/or tooling does your point imply an installer might need? Dell Boy working in that extremely well equipped garage from 'The Fast And The Furious' would probably not get as good results as an Army mechanic who changes a tank's gearbox in the desert... In any event, UKLPG trust installers to judge the end result of a conversion - If someone brought you an LPG converted vehicle to look at Gilbert, could you describe the premises in which it was converted just by looking at the end result? Convenient equipment might help the installer get the job done quicker but should not affect the end result if the end results are all judged to the end standard. Nasa astronauts changed the Hubble Telescope mirror in space when engineers on the ground got it wrong.

Nobody needs knowledge of COP11. COP11 is a code of practice written by a trade body, anybody can write a code of practice, there is nothing legally binding about a code of practice, a work procedure is a code of practice, I have written work procedures to be followed by others for several companies. If staff at those companies do not follow those work procedures then those staff might get in trouble with the firm but the staff would not be doing anything illegal. A code of practice is aimed at achieving end results, it does not necessarily get those results, there should be a separate standard to check the end results. We have a government endorsed legal standard for LPG installs on vehicles in the BS standard. Why do UKLPG like to confuse a self generated code of practice with a legal BS standard? I would suggest that this gives UKLPG a bit of credence in the eyes of installers, customers and (a minority of) insurers.

Anybody with relevant mechanical or engineering sense can see if a job has been done properly or not, including none UKLPG members like you and I. All un-quantifiable stuff, just like UKPLG's qualifications for checking others work but there is a legally valid, recognised, quantified qualification for checking vehicles and every Vosa / Dvsa qualified MOT tester has that qualification, and that qualification covers checking LPG systems on vehicles during an MOT.

We don't know if all installers on this forum are the better ones, there are thousands of installers and most of them do not come on this forum at all, we don't know who keeps their head down or who doesn't. There are no parallels between better installers and UKLPG membership and you have previously said such yourself. I am one of the better installers but the only way I can qualify that statement is because I can compare my own workmanship and drive-ability results to others workmanship and drive-ability results, compare the spec of vehicles I successfully convert to the spec of vehicles others successfully convert. I am not a UKLPG member, I have no wish to be, but i don't think anyone would say I keep my head down and nobody would say I do poor or unsafe work!

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

My long post appeared twice so I have edited the repeated post to this short post...

LPGC wrote:How many members does UKLPG claim to have?

Bit pointless ; when numbers are given you just pronounce them lies.

Assuming you mean approved autogas installers (remember that UKLPG 'members' are the likes of Calor and Wincanton), count 'em up if you're bothered: secret hidden website here -
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/approved-inst ... installer/
There may be one or two motorhome specialists not listed.

Edit: pick an area and zoom out as far as possible, Panning around the country shows all the markers, about 150 I reckon

It certainly was easier when they produced a straight list. It's nothing like 2000, just how many installers do you think there are?