LPG Discussion Forum

sijones wrote:Tubbs, do you keep any stock of the 34's?

I dont, they never go wrong ! Lol. Can get them though. Why ?

Tubbs wrote:

sijones wrote:Tubbs, do you keep any stock of the 34's?

I dont, they never go wrong ! Lol. Can get them though. Why ?

It was a passing thought of if these Reg fast are @!## then I could buy the 34's while am at yours!...

So, were getting a little bit closer to the King non ODB is a bit pants....

sijones wrote:

Tubbs wrote:

sijones wrote:Tubbs, do you keep any stock of the 34's?

I dont, they never go wrong ! Lol. Can get them though. Why ?

It was a passing thought of if these Reg fast are @!## then I could buy the 34's while am at yours!...

So, were getting a little bit closer to the King non ODB is a bit pants....

Errm... Dont know, personally i only fit the obd type. Unless the car is really old. Kinda 2000 on and obd compiant, then you may as well utilise the k line connection really.
What year is the shitron ? If you have the proper code reader surely it will freeze frame when the mil was triggered ? Have a look at long and short term trims, rpm and map...it will pin point the problem. Then up or down the gas map around those points and it should go away. But yes, good mapping is the key always.

Tubbs wrote:What year is the shitron ? If you have the proper code reader surely it will freeze frame when the mil was triggered ? Have a look at long and short term trims, rpm and map...it will pin point the problem. Then up or down the gas map around those points and it should go away. But yes, good mapping is the key always.

it's a 2007 with EGS, it's really quite sensitive little thing, it's the wife's car in actual fact but it's good for the size, and the 6 speed semi auto box is good, nice easy car to drive for her...

I suppose I need to get this map right, maybe am just blaming everything else rather than my map, it just annoys me though! But the injectors do sound a little loud so might be time to get a better set at least... maybe...

Bloody hell ! Talk about taking a knife to a gun fight
Those 'fast' injectors are pretty clattery from new anyway. Are you saying they have got progressively worse ? Or you have noticed them recently.
Look, there are cars out there that you cant get a connection to the k line even though they are obd compliant. But it doesn't mean we don't do them, Infact we have all prolly done quite a few. But you just need to get the map right is all.
As i say, for now, have a look at the freeze frame and put your deer stalker hat on and get a big pipe. Do some detective work and you should be able to pinpoint the issue. I had a problem with a car once. It was good for ages, then it would k light. Freeze frame pointed me in the right direction,I had to be doing 60mph at 2600 rpm and the map reading looked somewhere between light throttle and half way down. So i headed for the dual carriageway, obd reader/ laptop on the seat. Got to the desired speed and revs. Fuel trims at -25% so too rich. And the petrol computer flagged it up as such. So i took the map down at that point, just -2 % at a time. And after a few slight adjustments it was right as rain. In fact the reason i remember it so vividly was the customer was back in this week for a service. Done 65k so far. And he hasn't seen the k light since.

Hi for me good lpg system in the car means:
1. good installer
2. good injectors
some times good installer its enough but better if he is supported by good injectors:)

If you need Valtek -34 you know where to find it:)
http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-valtek-4cy ... injectors/


LPGTech it is not good because i selling it , i am selling it because it is good. What i like in this system, if you want it, it doing almost everything for you and it works, if you want to play with it or you have got 'this' car in your workshop it gives you plenty tools to work with.

After new year im going Scotland, Wales and South Coast to do some training to garages if you like let me know i will visit you.
Cheers

sijones wrote:

Tubbs wrote:And si... We seem to have deviated from the original question ?
My advice, go straight down the middle and fit a set of 34's. You wont be disappointed.
What reducer are you running ?

Am running a OMVL Dream XXI-G, i believe rated to 180BHP, my picasso is a 2.0 producing 140BHP roughly.

If you think that might be pants then let me know as am a little peeved that I get the MIL, I know it's prob just the map but honestly I seem to mess about with it constantly and the MIL will stay off and then suddenly after a few weeks it will pop back on!

So that's why in another thread I was thinking of replacing the ECU for one that does ODB, that way I can run the auto cal and then connect the ODB and forget it...

Did have a little thought about buying that new LPGTech with Magics and just redo the frontend for a little experiment!

Am not going to throw any of it away if I replace it, so it's not wasted really as I'll put it to one side for another car that might not be so sensitive to the mapping.

You never know Tubbs, i finish on 14th Dec for crimbo so I might make a special trip out to come have a brew with you and use your shiny scanner!

The old metal black coild OMVL injectors were good for well over 250BHP (4cyl) but the new plastic body ones are on teh limit at around 200BHP.

I would say that your problems are most likely a mapping issue. Are you adjusting the map with live data from a scan tool? Fancy posting up a screen shot of your map and settings?

Tubbs wrote:Bloody hell ! Talk about taking a knife to a gun fight
Those 'fast' injectors are pretty clattery from new anyway. Are you saying they have got progressively worse ? Or you have noticed them recently.
Look, there are cars out there that you cant get a connection to the k line even though they are obd compliant. But it doesn't mean we don't do them, Infact we have all prolly done quite a few. But you just need to get the map right is all.
As i say, for now, have a look at the freeze frame and put your deer stalker hat on and get a big pipe. Do some detective work and you should be able to pinpoint the issue. I had a problem with a car once. It was good for ages, then it would k light. Freeze frame pointed me in the right direction,I had to be doing 60mph at 2600 rpm and the map reading looked somewhere between light throttle and half way down. So i headed for the dual carriageway, obd reader/ laptop on the seat. Got to the desired speed and revs. Fuel trims at -25% so too rich. And the petrol computer flagged it up as such. So i took the map down at that point, just -2 % at a time. And after a few slight adjustments it was right as rain. In fact the reason i remember it so vividly was the customer was back in this week for a service. Done 65k so far. And he hasn't seen the k light since.

Again with LPGtech you do not have to take OBD reader with you. it has table screen very similar to A.E.B map screen + another screen which shows you where exactly on your map car is to lean or rich. so you can very accurate adjust right spots to get right injection timing.
i was fitting A.E.B King and Zavoli many times and if i had something like that in their software i would call them perfect.

cheers

Tubbs wrote:

classicswede wrote:
The down side with AEB is that they are not true sequential like most of the Polish systems like KME and Europegas. AEB is great for older cars that run full group injection etc but for more recent stuff the Likes of KME are much better. The key is knowing how to set the system up correctly and how to use its features

Care to expand on that ? If you look at the diagnosis page it shows all the injector times of each injector. You can turn them off/onto petrol separately. And if you get the cut wiring wrong then you certainly know about it. How 'truly sequential' do you want. The petrol ecu is sequential, in turn it fires the gas injectors sequentially.
I don't believe they aren't sequential, you wouldn't be able to do such modern stuff on a non sequential system without a load of problems. And they all run perfect. The most modern car i have done has been 2010. Had no problem with that. A non sequential system would fall down on can bus. The slow and fast trims change at pretty much the same rate when you get it all bob on.
Let alone valve tronic/ start stop and multi air applications....

The AEB ECU is not TRUE sequential. As a well established installer of AEB you should well know that. With AEB the ECU only actualy reads the pluse width of cylinder A on each bank, that is why it is critical that each bank is wired up to the coresponding bank on the engine so that the lambda sensor trims each cylinder equaly. If you mix them up it will cause alot of problems. The AEB ECU also actualy predicts the firing of teh cylinders after A. When you next do a 6 cylinder car plug in one of the D wires and watch it fire the injector!

You don't give technical support for years without picking these kind of things. I know AEB inside out and have picked up lots ofinformation over the years from manufactures and installers world wide.

sijones wrote:

Tubbs wrote:

sijones wrote:Tubbs, do you keep any stock of the 34's?

I dont, they never go wrong ! Lol. Can get them though. Why ?

It was a passing thought of if these Reg fast are @!## then I could buy the 34's while am at yours!...

So, were getting a little bit closer to the King non ODB is a bit pants....

The Reg fast are fine. If you pull the plastic clipoff that holds the coil down the noise should drop right back. The original rails used metal spring clips, they were much better and ran silent thanks to the clips and metal body. The Light weight ones are noisey due to the plastic.

The non OBD king is perfectly capable of doing what you want but without mapping to live data from the OBD port you will struggle to get it right.

Fitting better quality injectors like the AEB ones or Hana/keihin only make minimal differnce but what ever setup you have the map needs to be right.

classicswede wrote:I would say that your problems are most likely a mapping issue. Are you adjusting the map with live data from a scan tool? Fancy posting up a screen shot of your map and settings?

Yes I do the mapping from live data, the trouble is you can't really map it perfect if your driving and got the laptop and scanner on your knee

Tomorrow i'll post the screen shots, maybe people can see straight off what am doing wrong, might be easier!

Would be a good idea and there could well be something obvious there

classicswede wrote:

Tubbs wrote:

classicswede wrote:
The down side with AEB is that they are not true sequential like most of the Polish systems like KME and Europegas. AEB is great for older cars that run full group injection etc but for more recent stuff the Likes of KME are much better. The key is knowing how to set the system up correctly and how to use its features

Care to expand on that ? If you look at the diagnosis page it shows all the injector times of each injector. You can turn them off/onto petrol separately. And if you get the cut wiring wrong then you certainly know about it. How 'truly sequential' do you want. The petrol ecu is sequential, in turn it fires the gas injectors sequentially.
I don't believe they aren't sequential, you wouldn't be able to do such modern stuff on a non sequential system without a load of problems. And they all run perfect. The most modern car i have done has been 2010. Had no problem with that. A non sequential system would fall down on can bus. The slow and fast trims change at pretty much the same rate when you get it all bob on.
Let alone valve tronic/ start stop and multi air applications....

The AEB ECU is not TRUE sequential. As a well established installer of AEB you should well know that. With AEB the ECU only actualy reads the pluse width of cylinder A on each bank, that is why it is critical that each bank is wired up to the coresponding bank on the engine so that the lambda sensor trims each cylinder equaly. If you mix them up it will cause alot of problems. The AEB ECU also actualy predicts the firing of teh cylinders after A. When you next do a 6 cylinder car plug in one of the D wires and watch it fire the injector!

You don't give technical support for years without picking these kind of things. I know AEB inside out and have picked up lots ofinformation over the years from manufactures and installers world wide.

Your a bit out of date. When did you last use an aeb ecu. They used to fire d. Back on the a,b versions of the ecu. I know this because I used to use it for the flashlube. They certianly don't now. Found that out when the flashlubes stopped working ! They never used to show all the injector timings singly either. I think a bits changed since you left fes Dai ! And you arnet fitting aeb anymore.

Things have not changed that much and yes I do still fit AEB. The ECU has changed many many times over the years and does have some good features, there are pros and cons from AEB to other ECU's. With the OBD ECU they do now only drive injectors that have a signal due to problems with Hemi engines.

The Problem arises with engines where they are banks are split with a lambda for every 2 cylinders or when and installer does not follow the banks.

If you look at the diagnostics page of a AEB ECU, you can see the individual timings of each injector. You also have sequential change over and calibration. How is that not sequential?

I think he's trying to say the fuelling calculations are not per-cylinder, nothing to do with timing or seqeunce. Bit like petrol ECUs

mmmm. - but if all 8 (or however many) gas injector timings are all showing slightly different (moving) figures when running on gas is that not adjusting the fuelling individually for each cylinder or am I missing something?

Without knowing inner workings of the software, you can't say. Is that a snapshot, or an average? It certainly isn't real-time per firing cycle cos that would make a stupid display. Is it taking each figure from different cycles by turns, or all at once and updating the display by turns? None of which reveals anything about how it processes the data into injector drives.

As Ross says. They work the same as a petrol ecu. If you watch the fuel trims on petrol they generally move on one bank, and then the other and back again. And so does the sequental aeb ecu. Infact if it's tuned nicely they will do exactly the same.

Dualtech wrote:If you look at the diagnostics page of a AEB ECU, you can see the individual timings of each injector. You also have sequential change over and calibration. How is that not sequential?

I did not say that it was not sequential. I said it was not true sequential