one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

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demonicwillow
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Re: more cable ties!

#21 Post by demonicwillow »

sijones wrote:
demonicwillow wrote:tis easier to find an insurance company who dont require an lpg certificate and there are quite a few around :mrgreen:
Then start listing them for us... I phoned a number of them beginning of sept, including Adrian Flux and Chris Knot and all said they now require a safety certificate, i.e. on the register.

Will be nice for others to be able to know where to go.
Adrian flux and Chris knot arent insurance companies, they are agents who require a certificate, alot of the insurance companies they use dont actually require a certificate although your certificate of insurance will say Adrian flux etc, big minefield here :wink:

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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#22 Post by john_d »

classicswede wrote:Its not an inspector just a customer who thinks he know everything. A long story so I'll PM you a link to a thread he started on another forum.
ask him what he thinks should be done.

is a new install you've just done? probably trying to get you to give him a discount!
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classicswede
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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#23 Post by classicswede »

He sent me a letter asking for compensation! :!:
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rossko
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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#24 Post by rossko »

You'll need to take proper advice, but my reaction would be to respond asking them to -
* clarify exactly what functional or performance issues they may have, i.e. where does it not do what it says on the tin
* any supporting evidence - depending how they worded the complaint, say which laws or guidelines they think have been breached, or a professional report.
* offer to rectify any such problems identified (never cashback!)
* last-resort offer to remove the whole thing with a full refund - sometimes focusses the players mind

You already know you can't "win" with such folk once the ball is rolling and they are ranting, all you can do is act reasonably.
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markocosic
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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#25 Post by markocosic »

Vapour pipes for injection systems are "high pressure" according to COP11 are they not? (strictly speaking - they are over 0.2 bar) Therefore same rules as the hard pipes.


Plastic cable ties are ok for cables in low temp areas. Most are made of nylon and the glass transition temperature for nylon is low. Heat some cable ties to 120C and watch what happens. You may as well use gravity or elastic bands to hold the parts! This is ok for securing cables, perhaps pipes, but they won't hold tension so hopeless for anything heavier.


The Engineering plastics as used on intake manifolds, cam covers and the likes are radically different to cable ties. You can get metal cable ties. They're usually used for exhaust wrapping or insulation on hot ducting in buildings etc:

http://gallery.cosic.org.uk/upload/2012 ... 500e62.jpg
http://gallery.cosic.org.uk/upload/2012 ... 679830.jpg

http://www.uneeda.co.uk/stainless-steel ... and-betts/

I switched them out for jubilee clips to hold the injectors in place though - much easier to service/far more secure and still <50p each. You can join two or three together as required in the same way as you'd join cable ties.


I'd reject that install if I'd paid for it - the injector rail clearly isn't securely fitted. Bung two "straps" made of jubilees around that injector rail and the intake manifold and I wouldn't argue about security though.


I'd prefer to see metal ties holding the vapour pies to the rad (conduit is good call) but for the purposes of reducing rubbing I think the ties over the air intake pipe are ok. More secure is if you use two cable ties. Put one around the air intake pipe, and use that to "hold" another cable tie. Put that 2nd cable tie around the LPG pipe. Kinda like an Audi badge/olympic rings or the way that the police handcuff people. This way you've got a better grip on both pipes, and they're separated by the cable ties so less likely to rub. Ditto where you've tied it to the A/C pipe.


Why not buy an exhaust clamp for a quid, and bolt it through that plastic engine cover? This would hold that filter very securely (fit it on the passenger side) and then you can have the temp/pressure sender followed by simple run of pipe running to the vapouriser. Not only will it be shorter, but it will also not tie the engine (moving) to the fixed side of the air intake pipe bellows, to the radiator (not great - better to tie to the radiator mount/slam panel to avoid stressing the rad), to the engine/moving side of the A/C pipe, then back to the fixed vap. One extra part, two extra holes, a metre less pipe, several less cable ties. Won't take long and should satisfy the fussiest COP11 inspector!

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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#26 Post by classicswede »

Those metal clamps are supplied with cylinder tank air tight boxes. I personaly throw them away and use jubilee clips to secure the vent hose on. If you are using them on any rubber pipes you need to put something around teh pipe to stop it from cutting through.

Cable ties are strong enough and can withstand the heat. For example Volvo's from the mid 80's used cable ties under bonnet and on teh engine and they are still holding strong today.

As to relocating the vapour filter I'd have liked to but with very limited clearance there was little choice and the pipe run had to be a little on teh long side. The engine cover rubs on the bonnet so everything had to stay below that level.
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demonicwillow
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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#27 Post by demonicwillow »

classicswede wrote:Cable ties are strong enough and can withstand the heat. For example Volvo's from the mid 80's used cable ties under bonnet and on teh engine and they are still holding strong today.
I can vouch for that :lol: especially the 760 turbo's ... the heat from the engine eventually broke down the wiring insulation and would cause no end of problems, failed cps's located behind the head would cause loss of rpm's but allow tons of fuel to be injected allowing the turbo to glow bright orange, at the time volvo were notoriously rubbish at diagnosing failed cps's but a hosepipe would find it with nooo problems, a Jeep Cherokee is crammed to the max under the hood and unless Orvis bonnet vents are fitted there is nowhere for the heat to go but the cable ties hold up with no problems, even the plastic clips that secure the fuel and brake lines to the body that run down past the exhaust manifold never fail, so personally I cant see a problem with good quality cable ties, I think the cop11 regs are in principle a good idea and they need to go furthur but they are open to too much interpretation from what I read and hear on here and other places, too much grey area, more clarification on the use of materials and how they are applied is needed really as in its either a yes you can fit this or no thats not allowed to maintain a uniform standard within all testing facilities, to say a clip designed to retain a pipe could mean any kind of fastner really, I think all cars should run on lpg, its a far safer installation than petrol and if the car should accidentally catch fire or roll over or whatever, all but the fuel in the pipe is trapped in a steel high pressure tank behind a valve that shuts off when the engine is goes off off, unlike petrol which is contained in a plastic tank with no shut offs.

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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#28 Post by Tubbs »

Let alone a pressure relief valve and a thermal fuse !

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Re: one for installers- is it ok to cable tie injectors?

#29 Post by classicswede »

LPG is very safe.

This video goes to show it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBXS21uh6lc

I'll point out that the "bad" conversion that explodes will not have any pressure relief valve or thermal fuse fitted.
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