LPG Discussion Forum

classicswede wrote:It does happen.

If this one had been correctly installed the leak would have vented to outside

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/332 ... rette.html

This one example has been worn out by over use.... lets see all the other cases.... waits patiently

[quote="linsdav8284"][quote="Lpg Monkey"]

"It might not be the best thing we have but it's all we have"

Yes Lpg Monkey - but of what use is it to the consumer? Better than nothing status is meaningless and worthless to a consumer. I don't mind at all being asked by my insurer to fork out money for an inspection. However I do object strongly to being inspected by someone whose expertise is not guaranteed . Such inspection doesn't guarantee anything. In fact the only protection the consumer has is remedy via Trading Standards Dept.

I don't want this post to veer the thread off track but why should a UK consumer be guided/restricted by UK insurers to UKLPGA installers when the association itself has very limited teeth . I use the analogy of CORGI- I know many many plumbers who were better gas installers than peers who were registered CORGI contractors.


And if you were to seek a remedy for a poor job via trading standards what would they test your job against the cop 11 that's what. They'll tell you to get a report from a competent person ie a approved installer and it will be tested against cop 11. I'm not defending it and as I've put before I don't subscribe but I do install in accordance with it because its fruitless not too.

Lpg Monkey wrote:They'll tell you to get a report from a competent person ie a approved installer and it will be tested against cop 11.-

LpgMonkey- you are missing the point I am trying to make. Why an approved installer? Approved by a seemingly toothless trade association ?"Approved" status has proved meaningless to me. I have had 4 installations done - all by approved installers. However 3 of the jobs had to be remedied by a local installer - NOT an approved installer but the one who has delivered by far the best results on these 3 conversions. To repeat - approved should mean something to the consumer and provide some guarantee of competency. At present it does not .

linsdav8284 wrote:quote = "Rossko "- "What would you like to see put in place? "
... what I would like most of all is a regulatory body which has teeth and has no self serving interests other than to ensure that LPG conversion jobs are safe and fit for purpose.

Okeydoke, UKLPG can never meet this requirement as it is a trade body (anything it ever does can therefore be labelled self-serving) and its interests are much wider than autogas. Opinion noted but there is nothing we can do about it. You need government action, but they show no inclination. You need taxpayer support to fund such a body for a minority of users.

What kind of teeth did you have in mind by the by, as ejection doesn't cut it? Fines, seized vehicles, jail, forcible training?

Dave K wrote:I only gots far as the 3rd para...
'as a poorly converted vehicle substantially increases the risks of insurance claims through the incidence of vehicle fires and worse - accidents , injuries and even potential fatalities.'

I'm sure you know those are BIBA words, not UKLPG, but it is the message I would expect from both.
Is there some other message that should be there? "poorly converted vehicles just as safe as well converted ones"? I'm afraid I've lost your point really, are insurers not going to consider potential risks even if there has not been one incident to date?

Dave K wrote:Yet our roads , if the scare mongering of the UKLPG members is to be believed, are full of badly converted vehicles from before the days they set themselves up and from unregistered installers, yet incidents of lpg vehicle fires are no different now than they were before .

LPGA as-was started in 1947. To be fair, I believe they've only taken much interest in autogas in the last twenty years though.
I think we all agree the probable rate of incidents was very low and has remained very low. Again I'm not sure of the point, do nothing until/unless someone is fried and then begin the finger pointing, told-you-so, and clean up?

The point I'm trying to make is that , in my view, the UKLPG has come along and whipped up a bit of hysteria by giving insurance companies the idea that they have rode in to town on a white stead to save them from some thing that wasn't really a problem and as a result of all this, put pressure on installers to join their merry band whilst leaving customers with perfectly good installations , the extra costs of getting their vehicle put on a register.

LpgMonkey- you are missing the point I am trying to make. Why an approved installer? Approved by a seemingly toothless trade association ?"Approved" status has proved meaningless to me. I have had 4 installations done - all by approved installers. However 3 of the jobs had to be remedied by a local installer - NOT an approved installer but the one who has delivered by far the best results on these 3 conversions. To repeat - approved should mean something to the consumer and provide some guarantee of competency. At present it does not .[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I think it is you that is missin the point I'm not a member I am that local installer who has to constantly put right endless waves of poor conversions some uklpg most not. You are wrong however about them not being for the consumer, just this week I have been working with uklpg on a poorly converted motor that is registered and the procedure goes , customer has car converted, customer has lots of problems and original installer fails to put it right , customer decides to seek help elsewhere they check the system over and see in my case it was incorrect for the vehicle, I check the register online to see if it registered see it is then contact the uklpg, man comes out and inspects vehicle , vehicle fails inspection , original installer is made to pay for inspection costs as a way of a fine , but this is where it falls down the customer is entitled to what they paid for a working conforming conversion however the customer would have to let the original installer effect the repairs however understandably the customer has lost all confidence in their ability in my opinion the original installer should be made to pay for all repairs at the place of the customers choice. You can also as a consumer contact the uklpg yourself if you suspect the job is not up to scratch they come to your house inspect it and then the system is the same.

Just a question after the first couple of poor installs from uklpg installers why did you go back if your local man is much better why not go there and get it registered at an approved place slightly more expensive at time of conversion but much better I the long run

Dave, yes I picked up on that as well, and also the dodgy stats. Note the lovely selective stats - looked at 20 vehicles, 19 failed, none were by UKLPG members. Makes the stats look very, very bad - but no stats whatsoever about conversions that were done by members. Also, the sample is meaninglessly small - it could be that there happened to be (say, not picking on any one group) an enclave of immigrants from an eastern EU country who've all done their own vehicles (or done them between them). Thus, if you go and check cars in that particular locations, you'll find some skewed figures.

Usual case of lies, damn lies, and … statistics

Lpg Monkey wrote:Just a question after the first couple of poor installs from uklpg installers why did you go back if your local man is much better why not go there and get it registered at an approved place slightly more expensive at time of conversion but much better I the long run

Perhaps the requirement to have it done by a UKLPG member in order to get the grant ?

SimonHobson wrote:

Lpg Monkey wrote:Just a question after the first couple of poor installs from uklpg installers why did you go back if your local man is much better why not go there and get it registered at an approved place slightly more expensive at time of conversion but much better I the long run

Perhaps the requirement to have it done by a UKLPG member in order to get the grant ?

Maybe but if you then spend all the money you got as a grant in your local specialist putting right the job then you haven't saved a penny and gained a load of grief. You would only be bitten by that once not 3 times surely

When every installer is on the UKLPG scheme and all conversions are on the register, where is the UKLPG going to make their money ? As their costs increase are they going to put up the installers membership fees every year, some thing a lot of installers won't be happy about. I suspect they will start telling insurance companies that the vehicles on their register should be re checked every year just to be double safe and that at a small cost to the owners , they will police a scheme which ensures vehicles are checked once a year. Then, to be extra safe, they will come up with the idea that if you sell your lpg vehicle, even if it was registered yesterday, the owner will have to be changed on the register and a fee for change of details will ensue.

Please don't tell me that the UKLPG has the customers health , safety and well being in mind.It's abut operating a closed market and making money. Nothing wrong with that but at least be upfront about it.

Everyone (except Ross who has pointed it out a number of times) seems to be getting hung up UKLPG being a profit driven business. It probably is, as is every business, but Autogas is only a tiny part of their interests. They are the trade body for everyone involved in LPG, so that includes the companies that produce the stuff in the first place, the distributors, the domestic and industrial tank installers, the fitters that install LPG cookers and central heating systems for those that don't have mains gas, etc. Not just the tiny minority that install and use it to run motor vehicles.

Honestly, what a pointless discussion. Now we are inventing complete fantasy-futures (and not the only one in this thread) to prove how wicked UKLPG are. I'm completely at a loss why you think UKLPG makes more money with some installers outside the fold.

Statistics from a Trading Standards dept, used by an Insurers Association, are decried. You didn't read on to how those stats were gathered, at the TS dept instigation. It's hardly suprising that only folk who thought they had a problem turned up for "free testing" Sure, by all means question them, but how do UKLPG get the blame there? Perhaps "UKLPG must have bribed the Trading Standards dept", I dunno.
Is anyone seriously suggesting a pitiful sample like that swayed a multi-million pound business whose whole game is statistics? Insurers incapable of looking for themselves? It's an example, duh.

I'll invent a future where someone gets fried instead of singed, compelling government "action". They modify the IVA test and make it mandatory for fuel type changes. This is justified in law because the emissions are being changed, bonus they can paint it all 'green' politically. It's retrospective (existing installations). Evaders will be caught by the MoT system and cars crushed. We all pay £500 for each test; many cars tested will fail IVA on other grounds. UKLPG makes one person redundant, and carries on its usual other business. You can now label me a scaremonger, but do note its all fantasy and its never going to happen. Easy to invent 'logical' conclusions though.

got custumer who ask me why uklpg dont have any number if you wonna call them?...just email?,,,i dont know...

I don't know, why doesn't he ask them?

Lpg Monkey wrote: Just a question after the first couple of poor installs from uklpg installers why did you go back if your local man is much better why not go there and get it registered at an approved place slightly more expensive at time of conversion but much better I the long run

LpgMonkey- simple answer really. In order to get the grant I had to go to specified installers ! In my case , UKLPGA gave me advice - however it was up to me to do everything that was needed to seek remedy. As it turned out the installer ceased trading! I was left high and dry.

Rossko- maybe what I am about to say should be part of a new thread so apologies in advance if this is a bit off track. I am certainly not blaming the UKLPGA . In my case , my main gripe is with the insurers and the faith that they put in an installer who is approved by a trade association body. In my case, up until the point my installer ceased trading , I can only assume that he could have been called upon to inspect other conversion jobs at the same time as his own jobs were proving to be incompetent.

Given the nature of LPG , I had naively anticipated there being a strict regulatory process in existence. I found out to my cost that this was not the case in the UK. If you recall, I had recently considered getting my latest Prins installation done in Turkey - by a Prins authorised dealer. I couldn't do this because UK insurers had indicated they wouldn't insure me unless the installation was done by a UKLPGA approved installer. I personally don't understand the logic especially as I consider that Turkey has a better regulatory system than the UK. Any car that is converted to lpg in Turkey is required to be taken by it's owner directly to the nearerst government registration centre where it is independently expected .Any flaws identified are logged and the car has then to be taken back to the installer for rectification. Only when the car is given the all clear by the registration centre is the car legal to be driven on public roads. The owner is charged approx £40 for this inspection and registration process.

I accept your point about regulation and the comparatively low numbers of cars converted in the UK . The Turkish set up is govt regulated because of the huge numbers of cars running on LPG in Turkey.

Lpg Monkey wrote: Just a question after the first couple of poor installs from uklpg installers why did you go back if your local man is much better why not go there and get it registered at an approved place slightly more expensive at time of conversion but much better I the long run

LpgMonkey- simple answer really. In order to get the grant I had to go to specified installers ! In my case , UKLPGA gave me advice - however it was up to me to do everything that was needed to seek remedy. As it turned out the installer ceased trading! I was left high and dry.

Rossko- maybe what I am about to say should be part of a new thread so apologies in advance if this is a bit off track. I am certainly not blaming the UKLPGA . In my case , my main gripe is with the insurers and the faith that they put in an installer who is approved by a trade association body. In my case, up until the point my installer ceased trading , I can only assume that he could have been called upon to inspect other conversion jobs at the same time as his own jobs were proving to be incompetent.

Given the nature of LPG , I had naively anticipated there being a strict regulatory process in existence. I found out to my cost that this was not the case in the UK. If you recall, I had recently considered getting my latest Prins installation done in Turkey - by a Prins authorised dealer. I couldn't do this because UK insurers had indicated they wouldn't insure me unless the installation was done by a UKLPGA approved installer. I personally don't understand the logic especially as I consider that Turkey has a better regulatory system than the UK. Any car that is converted to lpg in Turkey is required to be taken by it's owner directly to the nearerst government registration centre where it is independently expected .Any flaws identified are logged and the car has then to be taken back to the installer for rectification. Only when the car is given the all clear by the registration centre is the car legal to be driven on public roads. The owner is charged approx £40 for this inspection and registration process.

I accept your point about regulation and the comparatively low numbers of cars converted in the UK . The Turkish set up is govt regulated because of the huge numbers of cars running on LPG in Turkey.

I would assume that any converted car, no matter where it was converted, would be insurable if it was subsequently checked and placed on the register by a UKLPG member. If someone was to buy a car already converted, as many do, and then find that their insurer wants it to be on the register there would be no indication as to whether it was converted in Turkey, a back street garage, by a DIYer or anywhere, it would still have to be inspected and would pass or fail on it's merits. One thing that you would need to be aware of is the different standards in place in different countries. In the UK we have adopted EN12979 but there is no reason why a country could choose not to and have their own, or even no, standards to work to. From personal experience I know that in quite a few Eastern European countries they insist that the bonnet and boot of the car are fully open during filling (which is done by someone from the garage, not by the owner) to allow the leaking gas to dissipate suggesting that leaks are regarded as normal.

'They modify the IVA test and make it mandatory for fuel type changes. This is justified in law because the emissions are being changed, bonus they can paint it all 'green' politically. '.... very unlikely seeing as how the emissions are being changed for the better, one of the big selling points of an lpg conversion.
The one thing that is likely to bring conversions to a halt is the economics of it. The govt have all ready declared their intention to close the gap between lpg and petrol excise duty by always increasing it by more on lpg than petrol for the next ten years. The rising cost of a litre of lpg of recent whilst petrol falls is also a worrying trend. Add to that the cost of a conversion in the first place, the cost of going on the register if not all ready on it ( plus the increase in conversion costs to cover installers fee for putting vehicle on the register ) and insurers increasing premiums for lpg vehicles because of the perceived dangers regardless of registration..... the bell tolls and all because some one has seen fit to rock the boat to build an empire.

rossko wrote:Statistics from a Trading Standards dept, used by an Insurers Association, are decried. You didn't read on to how those stats were gathered, at the TS dept instigation. It's hardly suprising that only folk who thought they had a problem turned up for "free testing" Sure, by all means question them, but how do UKLPG get the blame there?

Err, where did I blame UKLPG for that ? I merely pointed out that a document being used to "sell" the benefits of only accepting UKLPG registered installs uses blatantly misleading stats.

I hadn't read any details, but if you add that these were people who came along because they thought they had a problem then the results are pretty well as expected - but what they don't say is precisely what the author(s) of that document were careful to imply. A bit like carrying out a survey on health issues by walking round a hospital ward and extrapolating that to the general population


I do agree though, this thread is getting a bit silly. As you say, nothing much is likely to change in the foreseeable future, unless there is a spate of LPG related incidents and/or a spate of LPG related serious injuries or deaths.

Also, for the record as you seem to have missed it. I am not against a register per se, nor am I against a trade body per se. What I am against is a trade body telling porkies to mislead the general public (and anyone else who doesn't fully understand the situation) into believing that they are more than just a trade body.

Dave K wrote:'They modify the IVA test and make it mandatory for fuel type changes. This is justified in law because the emissions are being changed, bonus they can paint it all 'green' politically. '.... very unlikely seeing as how the emissions are being changed for the better, one of the big selling points of an lpg conversion.

I thought I was naive; who says its better? How much, where is that documented? Is that true of every single job, are some better than others? How many conversions are on the road, even?

UK government is under all sorts of internal and international pressures to reduce CO2. Documenting this in a traceable, quantifiable, credible way in the case of autogas conversions is therefore a Good Thing to gov. UKLPGA registrations do already physically test, measure, and document this in the desired way, but of course not everybody wants registration. Gov can compel them all - not only do they address the safety issue we first imagined as a trigger, they get verifiable figures on C02 emission reductions of the national fleet as a political reward. For public consumption, it can be dumbed down as "we are checking on these suspect people who interfere with their cars emissions" (by changing the manufacturers fuelling system). There is a wider world than LPG, this will also take in pigsty gas burners et al. No-one else will have any sympathy if folk burning cheaper fuel have to fork out for a one-time test.

Of course its very unlikely and I didn't expect anyone to take it seriously, I did say it was possible to construct all manner of plausible fantasies.

Dave K wrote:( plus the increase in conversion costs to cover installers fee for putting vehicle on the register )

Just a reminder this is less than £15

Dave K wrote: and insurers increasing premiums for lpg vehicles because of the perceived dangers regardless of registration

Is there something new they didn't think of in say 1990 or even 2010? You have some source saying that insurers are lying to each other now and have no faith in the registration scheme?

Dave K wrote:..... the bell tolls and all because some one has seen fit to rock the boat to build an empire.

Who, what boat? You mean UKLPG are responsible for fuel duty rises now? I can't keep up.

SimonHobson wrote: rossko - "Statistics from a Trading Standards dept.."
Err, where did I blame UKLPG for that ?

Okeydoke, my turn to be paranoid there

SimonHobson wrote: I merely pointed out that a document being used to "sell" the benefits of only accepting UKLPG registered installs uses blatantly misleading stats.

Back to Puzzled of Wiltshire mode.
(a) What is actually misleading about those stats? There weren't 20 cars, 19 weren't found wanting? The source of the stats is named, the circumstances of the collection clearly described. I really don't know what else you expect here. A rider - "Warning : other Trading Standards depts have not done the same exercise"? "Caution: twenty is a small sample"? Come on, this is taken from a one-page summary note written by an insurance professional for other insurance professionals, not children or innocents. He's supposed to baby them somehow?
(b) If its blatant, why would we care, anyone can recognise it.

Don't get me wrong, its not a personal deal or even an important issue, but its typical of the mock-horror phrases peppering this thread that simply don't stand to reason.

SimonHobson wrote:What I am against is a trade body telling porkies to mislead the general public (and anyone else who doesn't fully understand the situation) into believing that they are more than just a trade body.

Show me the porkies; show me where UKLPGA claim to more than a trade body. Haven't we done this stuff already and come up blank?