is there a lpg diy fitting guide

[nokia_aid]

just about to fit lpg to my capri and was wondering if theres a fitting guide of things that need to be done so it will pass an inspection.

[Gilbertd]

Not a fitting guide as such, there's CoP11, the code of practice for installations, that your install will need to comply with to pass and inspection. It gives you the standards but isn't a fitting guide as such.

[nokia_aid]

is there a copy of that online at all, i know how to fit it all i just want to know if theres any rules about how often the pipe needs to be secured and distances from moving parts or exhaust etc

[Gilbertd]

The text of it was posted online a while ago until UKLPG found out and had it removed as it is copyright material. It popped up again online recently but I've just checked and it's been taken down again. However, CoP11 says:

4.4 Pipeline Location
4.4.1 Every pipeline feeding from or into the fuel tank should follow the safest route and be
protected from impact. It should not be routed through any passenger compartment. It
should be below the body shell where it may be shielded by structural members of the
vehicle wherever possible.
4.4.2 Pipelines should be no closer than 100 mm remote from the vehicle exhaust system.
Where this is not practicable, the pipeline must be shielded from the vehicle exhaust
system by a suitable heat shield so as to ensure that the pipeline is not subjected to a
temperature above 120°C.
4.4.3 Pipelines should be effectively secured to the chassis frame or body shell using purpose
designed pipe clips at intervals of not exceeding 600 mm and in such a manner to be
protected against excessive strain and vibration.
> Plastic strapping, tie wrap etc is not suitable
4.4.4 Pipelines should not be installed where any part is permanently hidden from view and
cannot be inspected regularly.
4.4.5 The positioning of pipelines should be such that they are not affected by chassis, panel,
suspension or propshaft movement. Pipelines should not be located at jacking points.

That should cover it.........

[nokia_aid]

ok cheers for that, one last question is on the filler location, can it be on the towbar

[Gilbertd]

Yes

[babycaravan]

before fitting to tow bar, think about how would fill up when using the tow bar.
there are things for and against it.
great you can use both side of lpg pump.
But not so good when you have a caravan or bike rack using the tow bar.

[Gilbertd]

Depends where you fit it. The filler on my LSE was on the side of the towbar so it made no difference if there was anything on it or not. The P38 has the filler mounted in the bumper next to the towbar. Fine even when towing as long as I pull up to the pump straight.

[LPGC]

Unless your Capri has had an engine swap you'll probably be fitting a single point system? If i hasn't had an engine swap or unleaded valves fitted, don't forget a lube system to protect the valves.

I know a guy who fitted a Lexus V8 in a Capri and added turbos!

Is the Capri a 2.8i model? If so it could be a bit more involved than you think...

You might need advice on mixer venturi size and on how to set it up after installation - probably unlikely to get correct parts if pulling bits off a different model car at a scrapyard. That said, there are specific plate type mixers available for Ford type twin choke Weber carbs etc.

Some of us installers on the forum sell DIY kits, talk you through the install, talk you through initial setup, will then look over the car to make sure it's safe and fine tune it if you want to bring it in....

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[nokia_aid]

yes its had an engine swap, its now running a rover v8 on twin carbs, i think im on top of it, i did a 2.8 many years ago but never had to have a certificate

[Gilbertd]

You don't HAVE to have a certificate now, it depends on the insurer. Some don't want one, others do. Some still ask for a certificate even though they are no longer issued, a conversion gets entered on the Register instead.

No need for Flashlube on a Rover V8 so that is one less thing you have to worry about and an R90E is perfectly suited to them too.

[nokia_aid]

my insurance are asking for a certificate or to see it on the register, shame as my last car i converted my insurance didnt require anything

[LPGC]

You don't HAVE to have a certificate now, it depends on the insurer. Some don't want one, others do. Some still ask for a certificate even though they are no longer issued, a conversion gets entered on the Register instead.

No need for Flashlube on a Rover V8 so that is one less thing you have to worry about and an R90E is perfectly suited to them too.

I'll add to that Gilbertd , although, of course, it's very unusual for me to go on about the insurance / registration situation !

There are different 'takes' on what constitutes a 'certificate'. By law an LPG system needs to be checked by a competent person, so proof that a competent person has checked it is all you need. An installer who has fitted many LPG systems, has had his work in the past checked by his peers in the industry, who has certificates from suppliers / manufacturers etc to say he is an authorised installer of such systems, will cover the competent person bit and therefore cover you by law. Most insurers understand all the above and are happy to accept a cert from a competent person. On the other hand there is a profit making trade body called UKLPG who have taken it upon themselves to start their own database of installs and only their members can register vehicles on this database. The database is not recognised by law, the trade body is not a government setup, but a minority of insurers do check the internet (as we all can) to see if vehicles are on this database and won't offer insurance if it isn't. Meanwhile, some members of the trade body will register any vehicle on the database for a fee without even having seen the vehicle.... There's a lot of discussion / arguing about the situation on the 'UKLPG comments' thread that I started...

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Tubbs]

I'm actually in the process of filming a bunch of 'walkthrough's' for doing an LPG conversion. To UKLPGA code of practice.
I know it's probably career suicide ! But I started out doing a DIY conversion. And there was no info available. So it would be a nice thing to do. Especially as back then (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) it was mostly simple open loop carbs with a 7 wire change over switch.
It's all a bit complicated for people nowadays. I've learned to do loads of stuff from you tube.
Its slow going though. And getting the time to do it / story board it and edit it all with a 9 month old baby is somewhat trickier than I first thought.
But I will get there. I've filmed fitting a centre torroidal so far but not edited. Not had a cylinder tank fit in for a while. But the next one I'm filming. I may have a go at fillers next week.....

[Gilbertd]

Sounds a bit like the 'what sort of LPG system do I have' guide I've been meaning to write for ages. I've got the text but it's finding suitable pictures to illustrate it that has slowed me down. Hopefully then there will be something we can point the posters that have just bought a converted car but have no idea what type of system is installed. At least then they'll be able to tell us if we are talking about single point open or closed loop or multipoint when they ask questions.

[Tubbs]

A lot of the standard questions appear over and over.
I think I have said before. Some one that feels they have the mechanical aptitude to complete an LPG conversion would just need the pointers.
Or they could also see what they are getting into as well. Quite a few people just give up in the end.

[LPGC]

It's the concepts that people need to understand when doing anything that's unusual to them, otherwise they can quickly reach a sticking point when what is shown in an example doesn't quite relate to what they see in front of them. When it comes to LPG conversions, obviously it would be very difficult to write specific instructions for converting every make and model of vehicle. No harm doing example videos and/or instructions, but examples written for one make and model cannot necessarily be directly applied to another make and model. Sometimes this can lead to too many ifs and buts.

With the kits I sell I usually supply generic instructions but for common conversions such as P38's etc I have specific instructions for fitting the specific parts I supply for that specific vehicle. If the customer collects the kit it helps if they come to collect in the vehicle they are converting because it gives the opportunity to spend an hour or so with them going over where to fit the components and connect wiring etc, this usually means less time is needed to be spent on the phone later.

I have around 50 different 'generic' piping diagrams already made up and the list is growing... The piping diagrams don't illustrate how pipes should run in an engine bay, they only show how all the piped components connect to each other hence the use of the term 'generic', but further explanative documentation gives a good idea on good and bad ways to route pipes in an engine bay.

Regarding specific bits for specific vehicles, this approach also helps a lot, it can ensure the parts supplied match the vehicle in terms of spec and design, make for neater results, shorter pipe runs and easier fitting.

I wonder if more installers start to sell DIY kits if there will be a fall-off in the number of new forum users pointed directly to suppliers that sell only one or two types of system? At the moment when someone comes on the forum asking which components will best suit their vehicle it seems some installers always advise the same AEB system from the same supplier, thus cutting out other installers who sell DIY kits the chance of selling a kit, and then the person who gave that advice ends up giving half the tech support for free over the forum but the customer is left wondering what to do next until questions are answered on the forum. Any of the stages can take much longer over the forum than if the customer had bought from an installer who gives phone tech support geared towards a newby and free calibration when it is fitted.

Let's not forget that common sense and the law agree that an install needs to be checked by competent persons. All installers will agree that a newby install should be checked by someone competent. If a newby buys parts from an installer or kit seller that doesn't offer this check then they will either need to pay someone for this check, be it either by a none UKLPG member competent person or by a UKLPG member competent person, or risk having made a mistake that could be unsafe. Current advice on the forum to buy from parts suppliers instead of from installers that sell DIY kits doesn't do newbies any favours or indeed suppliers any favours since kit sellers buy from those suppliers too and suppliers might rather sell to people that know what they're doing than get involved with tech support for newbies.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[Tubbs]

Personally I don't sell kits. I have been deeply involved in the supply sector of this industry in the past. But decided that I'm happier 'on the tools' as a plumber would say. That's why I thought I would have a pop at it. And if they are any good all the suppliers will be able to point potential customers at them. I meet people all the time who have either used an overdraft facility or half cash / half credit card in order to pay for an LPG conversion. Blokes (not many ladies, has to be said) who work as service engineers etc. And in all honesty are competent mechanically. And can't really afford the LPG conversion in the first place without using credit. But can just about cover the cost of a kit.
Lots of folk spend more on fuel to get back and forward to work than they do on food or mortgage repayments. That's the sad truth. Personally I don't mind sharing what little knowledge I have

[LPGC]

Agreed, Tubbs, but that doesn't really diminish any of the points I made above.

To point someone who is considering buying a kit directly to a supplier may not be doing anyone any favours...

Installers that sell DIY kits already supply the sort of documentation you're considering making and already offer phone tech support geared towards amateurs, be those amateurs engineers, mechanics or just general DIYers. I agree that most kit buyers are mechanically minded, but, indeed, in this industry we do seem to get a high proportion of engineers who pay for supplied and fitted conversions.

Suppliers will be no worse off whether an installer or an amateur buys parts from them - In fact, I suspect suppliers will prefer to sell to pros rather than amateurs because the tech support is then the pros responsibility. Pros don't need time consuming tech support, amateurs do. Not so very long ago, some suppliers wouldn't even sell conversion parts to amateurs, nothing to do with the safety aspect, everything to do with the level of tech support they could expect to give if they offered conversion parts to amateurs. Back then, those suppliers would only indirectly sell conversion kits to amateurs, indirect because they would make sure the amateur bought the parts from an installer, thereby making sure it would be the installer's responsibility to give tech support.

An amateur will initially pay a bit more for a kit from an installer that sells kits than they would pay a trade supplier but it can work out cheaper for them when all is said and done. Installers that sell DIY kits gear tech support more towards amateurs (e.g. the documentation you're thinking about developing is already available from kit suppliers like myself that gear kits towards amateurs as well as towards techy minded people like engineers). Kit suppliers will spend a fair bit of time, maybe face to face and with the vehicle to be converted present, discussing the install - a supplier probably won't. Kit suppliers will give the vehicle a free system inspection to make sure everything is fitted properly (not talking about safety yet) and will put right minor install mistakes - a trade supplier won't or will charge for it. A kit supplier will do a free safety check and issue an installers cert - a supplier won't or will charge for it. Kit suppliers will calibrate the system for free - a trade supplier won't or will charge for it. So, given the general advice on this forum (that no doubt you'll agree with) that an amateur should have his install checked by a competent person, it seems it will usually work out cheaper for an amateur to buy from a kit supplier than a trade supplier. Not only cheaper, but the tech support may be more forthcoming without relying on intermittent help from installers on the forum - Unless you're putting out an open invitation for anyone who buys a kit from a trade supplier to phone you up whenever they want with tech support questions and will guarantee that you will answer the calls or phone them back if you miss their call? In which case, I suspect you wouldn't get many conversions done...

None of the pros on the forum seem to mind helping amateurs with install questions etc, I give a lot of advice on the forum myself, but let's not forget that one of the main reasons pros frequent the forums is to get noticed and get extra work - be that converting vehicles, repairing existing installs or selling kits. Without being funny, getting noticed on this forum and answering questions certainly seems to work out well for you! Answering techy questions on the forum is, in truth, a way of showing your skills / knowledge... You don't have a little bit of knowledge, you're a pro installer and have a lot of knowledge, especially compared to an amateur who comes on the forum asking questions!

One of your points that I may have mis-understood, but if I understand correctly we will probably disagree on, is the part where you said suppliers will recommend an installer if an amateur approaches them for a kit. Why would a supplier recommend an installer if it is a DIY kit the customer wants to buy rather than a full install? I can only think of the supplier wanting to avoid doing the tech support for an amateur. I'm not sure how suppliers would know how good an installer is, but I can certainly see why a supplier might recommend an installer who buys all the components they personally fit from them, points all kit buyers to them and does a bit of tech support on their behalf for free - Whether the free tech support offered by the installer was really due to a very generous nature or due to wanting to get noticed on the forum to get extra work wouldn't really make any difference from the suppliers point of view.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[classicswede]

I've not read much of Simons post in this thread so might be repeating some of what he says.

I have been selling DIY kits pretty much since I started to install. I would say 90% of customers who did buy a kit managed to complete the installation to standard or with a couple of bits that needed adjusting simply by following my fitting instructions and a few phone calls for tech support. 5% were tooless (do you remember him, most of his type were normally put off going ahead with the first phone call to ask about a kit) and the other 5% never even made a start on fitting for some reason and some of those ended up coming to me to have the kit fitted.

I feel that is the extra support that I offer that makes me a better supplier than the likes of autogas lpg who just sell to anyone and provide no advice or support to customers.

The trouble with any fitting guide or video is there are so many options and every system has variations. The basics are all the same an can be covered by a basic guide. Trouble is there are a lot of folk out there who can not follow instructions or use a search to get the answers they need.