PRINS PROBLEM.

[linsdav8284]

A few "experts" on this forum rubbished my claim some 2 years ago that the term " you get what you pay for" was not always accurate. Here is an example.

10years ago I had a cheap system fitted to my Corsa - I didn't know anything about LPG then . As it happens I have never had a days problem and it is still going strong.

Then 2 years ago I was in the market for a new system for my wife's car. I was toying with the idea of going down to London to get a cheaper supply and fit but was warned that the significant price differentials was a false economy ie cheap system + dodgy install.

As it happens I decided to get a top of the range Prins system fitted - eventually going for a so called greatly superior product. Well here I am 30 months later in Bulgaria on holiday, with a full tank of LPG and having to run on petrol only. The system keeps on switching off after approx 10 secs .I thought maybe I had run out of valvecare - but that was all ok and there is still half a bottle left. I took it to 3 different LPG installers in Serbia and Bulgaria but the only system they didn't have the diagnostic equipment for - you've guessed it - Prins. What a let down and it will be back to the cheaper systems for me the next time.

[classicswede]

If only this forum had a like button

[rossko]

Make sure the engine coolant is up to the mark. If you can find the fuses, pull em out and reseat again - take care with that, it's easy to get the fuse blade alongside the socket in the rubbery holder instead of in place properly. Apart from that and eyeballing for chafed wires, there isn't much you can do if the locals dont have diagnostics.

Unigas-VT OOD in Polski Trambesh are the distributors, T. +359 6141 2966, who may be able to give you a nearby agent

[linsdav8284]

Make sure the engine coolant is up to the mark. If you can find the fuses, pull em out and reseat again - take care with that, it's easy to get the fuse blade alongside the socket in the rubbery holder instead of in place properly. Apart from that and eyeballing for chafed wires, there isn't much you can do if the locals dont have diagnostics.

Unigas-VT OOD in Polski Trambesh are the distributors, T. +359 6141 2966, who may be able to give you a nearby agent

Hi Rosko. Apologies for not acknowledging your reply. Havent been on the forum having been in Turkey for the past 3 months. As it happens, the problem turned out to be issues with injector no 1. In fact the wiring had sheared but I had the same problem 3 times in a 2 month period. The insinuation was that it was done by a dodgy installer - however I got it installed by someone with a very good reputation with Prins !. Also it puzzled me that it should happen 3 times in a short period - I could maybe understand it happening once after 3o months since it was installed. The "locals" in Eastern Europe didnt have the fault codes - they said Prins are very precious to keeping them limited to authorised dealers - 2 in Bulgaria !!. However was speaking to a guy in Scotland yesterday and he is NOT a Prins installer but he had the fault code software ( 3). I am as wise as ever - but I wouldn't go for Prins again simply because I travel in Eastern Europe pretty regularly.

[tomas]

prins its like mercedes
not in each town you will find dealer

[rossko]

I'm not sure who should be blamed for the same wire getting sheared three times?

[classicswede]

There must a reason why the same wire has broken 3 times. It seems odd that whatever the issue is was not sorted the first time it was repaired.

[LPGC]

I see lots of problems with Prins systems

I've said it many times on this forum and I'll say it again - Prins only has a good reputation today because Prins systems have always had Keihin injectors... which Prins don't make themselves and which can now be bought separately and used with other ECUs and reducers. Lima is effectively Prins wearing a different badge but Lima uses Matrix injectors instead of Keihin injectors. Matrix injectors are good but not as linear as Keihin injectors... Most ECU's can easily be mapped to give great results with Matrix injectors but not the Prins ECU. Guess why Lima doesn't have the same reputation as Prins!

About Prins injectors:
As said, Prins does't make injectors, Prins (Dutch) systems have always been shipped with Keihin (Japanese) injectors which are very expensive, very good and very reliable. The problem with Keihin injectors, especially for some vehicles, is that there cumbersome size means they can't be installed in a location which minimises pipe lengths between injectors and manifold or which looks neat. The pipe length issue can in some cases (and for an increasing number of vehicle models as inlet manifold design becomes more complicated and engine bays more crowded) mean that an engine would run better with cheapo injectors instead of Keihin! These days, none Keihin injectors are much better than they used to be and some are excellent performers, extremely reliable, much smaller in physcial size than Keihin, less cumbersome (so can be installed in better technical locations and better in terms of neatness locations) and cost a small fraction of the cost of Keihin. When modern injectors are compared to Keihin it's like comparing a space age piece of kit to something designed during world war 2. Some people think this must mean they're well built - they probably are, but so are some modern injectors and modern injectors will fit close to manifolds where Keihin won't.. this last point in itself makes for a better performing system.

About Prins reducers:
I find Prins reducers to be a bit better than average in reliability, pressure stable, high flowing and they can be cranked up to well over 2 bar output pressure. If there is a downside to Prins reducers it's just that competition offers reducers with higher flow rates in a smaller physical size, some of which can be adjusted to similar high pressure (not necessarily a plus point for most systems but useful should you install Keihin injectors or when replacing a Prins reducer), the competition is cheaper, reliable and much better value.

About Prins ECUs:
I find Prins ECUs unreliable and the separate injector emulator / switchover units they use very unreliable. The wiring between the ECU and the switchover unit is another weak point. The ECU's are very susceptible to being damaged or crashing, especially from voltage spikes (which can simply involve changing the vehicle's battery). Prins ECU's offer only a simple multiplier and offset so are on a par with Egas in offering the most basic calibration abilities on the market. So poor are the calibrational abilities of the Prins ECUs that they can only give acceptable results with the most linear injectors on the market... i.e. Keihin and similar performers. Any other fully sequential ECU offers better reliability and calibration abilities, expect maybe Egas! Any modern none Prins ECU will improve an existing Prins system if fitted instead of the Prins ECU. Prins ECUs represent very poor value for money, they are unreliable, there separate injector box is even worse, they are feature-less, under performing, bulky and the wiring loom leaves a lot to be desired. Any existing Prins ECU can be upgraded by removing the existing Prins ECU, injector box, loom and changeover switch and installing any ECU that is compatible with Keihin injectors - and there are many ECUs that are compatible with Keihin injectors.

About Prins dealers:
I find some Prins dealers, certainly those near to me in Yorkshire, seem to be stuck in a time warp - a time warp where Prins is by far the best system on the market (BRC being a 'close second) and where the government gives grants for converting to LPG (so they think they can still charge ridiculously high prices for everything from a diagnostic / service to a full install). I find such installers generally don't know much about other systems or how to correctly install and calibrate other systems - which may be a kind of catch22 for them because getting poor results from other systems due to their lack of skills re-enforces their belief that Prins and BRC are the best. I find Prins dealers give poor advice to customers whom visit them with any different system - the general advice being 'you need to rip it all off and fit Prins mate'. I wonder if some installers continue to believe Prins is the best because they have never developed the skills to calibrate any system that needs to be calibrated by adjusting numbers in more than a couple of boxes. I would suggest that installers with such a narrow view and inability to do basic LPG system calibrations don't really understand what they're doing and aren't the best people to work on vehicle fuel systems full stop.

On another thread:
A while ago I commented how a local Prins dealer (local to me and supposedly central to Doncaster) advised a customer (whom took his people carrier in for the LPG system to be repaired) 'You need a new system mate' and that 'You should only fit Prins or BRC because they're the best and other systems are @!##'. When the customer moaned at the high prices quoted the installer then said 'Well there are some new systems on the market called King we could fit but you'd have to buy the system yourself and we'll fit it'. so the owner bought the basic 4 cyl King ECU, a reducer good for 140hp and OMVL SL injectors for his supercharged 2L people carrier. The Prins installer fitted this system, very badly, it wasn't running right and was hardly running at all. The owner made numerous complaints to the installer and was eventually fobbed off with his car running no better, so the owner brought his car to me. The installer had made a catalogue of installation errors due, I suggest, to not having a clue what they were doing. Besides many amateur type mistakes they had mapped the system with a flat map, the under-rated reducer didn't have the vac signal pipe connected, theOMVL SL injectors were installed upside down and the pressure and fueling was all over the place. It should have been easy for the installer to spot their own mistakes on one of the owner's re-visits but the installer blamed the poor results on the system and advised the owner it wasn't his fault - he should have had Prins or BRC fitted if he wanted to expect good results. This Prins installer charged the owner £900 just to fit the engine bay components, the owner had to buy the parts himself so the total price to the owner was over £1100 just to replace the engine conversion on a 4 cylinder engine'd vehicle... And they made a complete mess of the job, didn't correct any problems even though the customer returned to them many times complaining about the LPG system not working properly, then fobbed the customer off, then the customer had to pay me to put it right.

Simon
Lpgc

[rossko]

.. the separate injector emulator / switchover units they use very unreliable.

Yes, they were. Because they no longer go wrong you may not have seen the improved types introduced some five years ago

So poor are the calibrational abilities of the Prins ECUs that they can only give acceptable results with the most linear injectors on the market... i.e. Keihin and similar performers.

Yes, this is not a defect. The VSI setup does not have the necessary bells and whistles to cope with cheap injectors, but as it is not intended to cope with cheap injectors that isn't a problem. We might as well complain about naughty AEB based systems that wilfully refuse to work with non-AEB pressure sensors and so on.

Lima is defunct a few years ago, used Valtek injectors (never saw a Matrix version though I guess that is feasible?).

Prins currently offer a lower cost "Silverline" system using Prins own-branded injectors, those appear to be Hana variants to me.

[classicswede]

I thought the silverline was with type 34's from pics I have seen posted on the net over the past few years.

Surprised that Prins would even run with 34's as with AEB systems the 34's have a very wide spread on the map, could be why those pics are there and often complaining of problems.

If you going for Prins you want the real thing

[rossko]

From the horses mouth
http://www.prinsautogasuk.co.uk/silverline.php

I installed several Lima systems with Type34 in the past with no issues, as has been said thats essentially VSI with non-Keihin injectors. Lima systems can often be found with some/many parts still branded Prins. But that's all history now.
I googled for "prins silverline problem" and "lpg silverline problem" and didn't turn much up.

I believe some earlier Silverline versions could be had with OMB injectors even, but never seen such. History too.

[classicswede]

They do look to now be Hana injectors, should work just as well now.

Searching for silverline might not give the results you are looking for as most customers are not aware of the system they have.

At least now they have found an alternative injector that will work

[LPGC]

.. the separate injector emulator / switchover units they use very unreliable.

Yes, they were. Because they no longer go wrong you may not have seen the improved types introduced some five years ago

So poor are the calibrational abilities of the Prins ECUs that they can only give acceptable results with the most linear injectors on the market... i.e. Keihin and similar performers.

Yes, this is not a defect. The VSI setup does not have the necessary bells and whistles to cope with cheap injectors, but as it is not intended to cope with cheap injectors that isn't a problem. We might as well complain about naughty AEB based systems that wilfully refuse to work with non-AEB pressure sensors and so on.

Lima is defunct a few years ago, used Valtek injectors (never saw a Matrix version though I guess that is feasible?).

Prins currently offer a lower cost "Silverline" system using Prins own-branded injectors, those appear to be Hana variants to me.

Yes I stand corrected on what I said about Lima having Matrix injectors, just had the last Lima system I saw in my head (was installed on an XJ Jag and did have Matrix injectors). Then again, the Matrix might be a better choice for Lima than 34's or whatever else they were fitted with...

I understand the Prins VSI's lack of calibrational ability isn't a defect because strictly it's usually fitted with Keihin injectors which are very linear so don't need much in the way of calibrational ability. Point is that I do see Prins systems with negative or positive trims at one end of the load range and an opposite trim at the other end of the load range. Often the difference in trim isn't growing and more apparent just at the extremes of load range, I see differences in trim between idle and just off idle for instance. Such differences in trim can't always be dialled out using just the offset and multiplier available in the VSI's capabilities but could be dialled out using most different ECU's.

If the ECU was any good and/or value for money then you'd think Lima would still be going strong given it could be sold on a 'built on Prins technology but without the hefty Keihin injectors price tag) basis? Especially since none-Keihin injectors have come on so much over the years?

Simon
Lpgc

[classicswede]

The thing that I find most odd about Prins is every 4.7 Jeep I've seen with Prins fitted and no flashlube has some extent of VSR yet every other system I've seen on them there have been no VSR issues at all. The only other system that I have seen VSR on a 4.7 has the OMVL Piro system on that I know for a fact had problems with the injector driver settings in the firmware causing lean and uneven running at around 3000 RPM

The drift in fuel trims is something I have also noticed and suspect this is the reason for the VSR problems on some of these more fragile engines.

I will point out that all the conversions I am talking about here are have been on the cars 5 + years.

[rossko]

If the ECU was any good and/or value for money then you'd think Lima would still be going strong given it could be sold on a 'built on Prins technology but without the hefty Keihin injectors price tag) basis?

Not really, when the Silverline product has taken its niche of Prins-without-premium.

[classicswede]

I would say that Lima was dropped for a number of reasons.
1) it did not carry the Prins name the same.
2) most installers had lost faith in the Lima system do to the incompatible injectors for the capabilities of the ECU.

The Prins silverline is a much better marketing idea and looks like they have now selected more compatible injectors.


I'm no fan of Prins but at least you know where you are with it and most of the components are of reasonable quality.

[linsdav8284]

If the ECU was any good and/or value for money then you'd think Lima would still be going strong given it could be sold on a 'built on Prins technology but without the hefty Keihin injectors price tag) basis?

Not really, when the Silverline product has taken its niche of Prins-without-premium.

Rosko and others- I am pondering getting my wife's 2011 hyundai 1.2 converted. Is it worth going for Prins given the decent alternatives around and if I do go for Prins then is the vsi 2 system worth the extra money. I assume the difference is due to better injectors ?

[rossko]

The premium on the injectors is more about durability than performance. Setting aside brand-name hokum, I'm sure most installers will agree that "getting what you pay for" particularly shows up in the practical lifetime of these critical components. Unless you are expecting to the keep the car for more than another 30,000 miles you won't care about that at all.

If you're expecting to keep it more than 60,000 miles, my advice would be to invest the extra.

[classicswede]

There is an old saying about getting quotes for work. Don't go for the cheapest as it is cheap for a reason, the most expensive is not likely to be good value. The price in the middle is usually the best bet.

Now we know with LPG conversions there is more to it than just that. The ability of the installer will often mean more that the quality of the kit but most of the better installers use a good quality system.

My preferred system is the Europegas premium system with the Europegas injectors. The 5 year warranty gives customers peace of mind that should anything go wrong the parts will be replaced FOC. I can't tell you how long the injectors will last as the most millage any of my own cars has done with one is 110,000 miles of running on LPG (195,000 miles total)

For customers on a tighter budget and maybe not expecting to keep the car forever I recommend either the Europegas standard system or the AEB/OMVL systems depending on the car as they are both good systems for the price.


There are lots of systems to choose from but the most important parts is who and how it is fitted.

[LPGC]

When you consider the higher cost of the Prins sequential system, the cost of injectors and the lifetime of injectors, Prins seems poor value to me.

The Prins system's Keihin injectors might outlast the life of the car but so too might other brands of injectors. The only really notable part of the Prins system is the Keihin injectors (which Prins don't make...), the reducer is good but not outstanding, the ECU is poor. Most of the extra money that people pay for Prins goes solely on the Keihin injectors. With the Prins system you almost certainly need to replace Keihin injectors with Keihin injectors (if they ever break) because they're the only injectors the poor calibrational abilities of the ECU allows it to work with properly. To replace Keihin injectors would be expensive, especially if the customer went to a Prins dealer since Prins dealers tend to charge more for their time than other installers. With most other systems you could replace broken injectors with injectors of your choosing, including Keihin injectors if you wished. Many brands of injectors are already extremely reliable and good for well over 100000 miles. Keihin injectors are very reliable and capable of very high mileages, but they are not infallible, I have replaced a few of them.

There are numerous taxis that I've converted that have done over 150000 miles on a set of OMVL SL injectors that cost £40 and the original injectors are still working as new.. IF the injectors on those taxis broke or wore out tomorrow it would cost the owner only £40 to buy new ones and for a bit of time for me to fit and re-calibrate the system. The taxi owners could then be confident of another 150000 miles for the small outlay.

I would find it extremely difficult to justify advising any customer to spend £280 on a set of Keihin injectors for any vehicle.

On some vehicle it is impossible to fit the large Keihin injectors in positions that achieve as good results and/or which achieve the same level of neatness compared to smaller yet similarly performing injectors.

Injectors aside for the moment, I would find it extremely difficult to justify advising any customer to spend more on the other components of a Prins system over an alternative system - Other systems have components as good as or better than Prins. Those other components will work well with Keihin injectors but they will also work well with a wide range of injectors. If a customer asked me to fit the most reliable injectors on the market, money no object, and if the engine was a design where Keihin injectors could fit neatly and in a technically good position, I might then recommend Keihin, I might be happy to fit a Prins reducer, but even then I would not recommend a Prins ECU...

Simon
Lpgc