Doncaster Central Issues

[LPGC]

Fixed a Toyota Lucida (people carrier) today, the supercharged automatic model.

I discovered some shocking workmanship from a company that charge extremely excessive prices. I have mentioned this company before on this forum for ripping people off, but I think this is the worst example of seemingly total lack of understanding of LPG systems I've ever come across. This story includes fobbing customers off with none working LPG installs, not even offering advice when it is obvious what needs to be done, a demonstration of a complete lack of understanding of how most (none BRC or Prins) LPG systems work from a supposed specialist, ripping people off with extremely high charges, doing unsafe work, doing work that is never going to be reliable, making a complete mess of calibration, failing to see where they have made mistakes when the mistakes are obvious and staring them in the face just by looking at a few figures on screen. This company slags off every LPG system except BRC and Prins and are arrogant enough to think they know better than the rest of us.

Here's the story:

Before coming to me, the owner previously took the vehicle to a garage which you could easily be forgiven for thinking was centrally based in Doncaster but which is actually about a couple of miles nearer to Doncaster than me and I'm 8 miles away. Incidnetally, this company isn't as close to any major routes as I am but anyway I won't digress further...At the garage in Doncaster the owner was told 'you need a new LPG system mate' and quoted a very high sum for a new BRC or Prins system. The owner asked about fitting a different system and was told 'If you get a system we'll fit it, just the under bonnet components £900 to fit if you buy the system'.

Just hearing the above, I knew which company the vehicle owner would be talking about...

The owner asked about which system he should get and was told 'There's a new system out called King'. So the owner bought a King system (apparently the central company thinks these are new on the market) comprising the obvious King ECU with a Tomasetto Arctic reducer and OMVL SL injectors. The garage fitted it and it worked but only just worked. The issues were it would take ages to change to gas, then usually cut out on changeover and when the owner managed to keep the engine actually running on changeover it ran generally like a pig and would beep as soon as the owner called for more than very marginal acceleration. The owner took it back to the centrally based garage but it wasn't fixed. After putting up with these issues it eventually stopped working altogether and would just beep instead of changing onto gas. The owner went back to the centrally based garage in Doncaster and was told 'there's no gas getting through' and came away with a system that didn't work at all and without advice on how to rectify the problem - just a very high quote if he wanted it fixing. The owner didn't have the work done and didn't go back to the garage central in doncaster.

The owner got my card from somewhere and visited me with the car. It was now running on LPG, but extremely poorly with all the same symptoms that it had had on the numerous occasions the owner had taken it back to the garage. When the owner told me that the garage had told him there's no gas getting through I immediately suspected the tank solenoid and had a look at the tank. It was a 4 hole tank with no manual shut off (service) valve, so inspecting the inners of the shut off valve would have meant losing all the gas in the tank. I was just closing and needed to be somewhere, it was late and the visit was un-expected, the car was running on gas (in a fashion), I advised the owner to run all the gas off if he could and come back one day soon when the tank was empty.

The next day the owner phoned me to say it wouldn't change onto gas again. He brought the vehicle in and I confirmed the tank solenoid fault. The tank was emptied and solenoid valve and coil changed, then tank refilled with £20 LPG. This fixed the won't change onto gas issue, but I went on to discover a wealth of issues.... I plugged into the King ECU and was surprised to see the injectors set as AEB (the owner told me he'd bought OMVL injectors) and a working pressure set at 0.9 bar on this supercharged engine. I was also surprised to see measured relative pressure at 1.8 bar at tickover with the 0.9 bar working pressure and the Arctic reducer that I'd seen (which I know only goes to 1.7 bar). I looked at the map - the map was nearly all 255's so I'm thinking what idiot set this up... Took it for a drive and gas injector durations are triple petrol injector durations at light loads, but often going up to 30ms under moderate loads. Relative gas pressure also came down to 0.4 bar with zero bar manifold pressure (manifold pressure will go to plus 0.3 bar with the supercharger). The gas pressure fluctuated wildly. There wasn't much doubt in my mind that the installer hadn't connected the reducer to manifold vacuum but had connected the pressure sensor to manifold vacuum. I opened up the engine inspection panel and found the installer had connected the map sensor to a dedicated vacuum tap correctly, but for the reducer vac reference had T'd into a vacuum pipe that only sees engine vacuum when a vac solenoid opens... I could also see the installer had used vacuum pipe (and without any clips) to the gas pressure side of the pressure sensor, and I could smell gas. I fixed the vacuum pipe to reducer issue and wound the reducer up to it's full 1.7 bar pressure, which I knew it would need at least with the OMVL injectors on this engine. To replace the unsafe vacuum pipe carrying gas pressure between rail and sensor meant I'd need to whip out the drivers seat and remove the carpet to get at the other engine inspection cover, then remove all the bolts in the cover to gain access to the injectors. I found the injectors were mounted to the chassis, not to the engine, and they were mounted almost upside down and touching the inspection cover - That would explain the loud injector noise then... Again there was no clip for the pressure take off pipe on the rail side of the pipe where the installer had used vacuum pipe instead of gas hose, but now I could replace the pipe with the correct 4mm ID gas pipe, install clips and make things a lot safer... Now I've confirmed it is fitted with OMVL injectors, but I'm curious to find out if the installer had any justification (if that's possible) for setting the AEB injectors in calibration and the 255's, so I tried the engine at tickover and handbrake on in Drive just to see the figures again - But what a cockup of calibration and piping this was turning out to be! I set the correct injectors and 1.7 bar working pressure in the software but gas injection times are still nearly double what they should be and I knew the injectors weren't going to be able to flow enough gas for anything like full throttle. This was a plastic bodied King, so petrol additions aren't possible but switching back to petrol totally can be dialled in. I checked the nozzle size in the OMVL's and they're the standard large size. I tried removing them completely but they still weren't going to flow enough at 1.7bar. I phoned the owner and advised him about all the issues, and asked if he wanted me to replace the injectors and at the same time move the new injectors into the correct place on the engine where they'd be safer, work better, last longer and be quieter. The owner phoned me back and said yes please. I fitted some MJ injectors with 3mm nozzles and at 1,7 bar the calibration is looking good, however on a road test the Arctic reducer didn't flow enough gas at full boost above about 3400rpm. So I set the King ECU to switch back to petrol at 3300rpm and 13ms duration, which cured the switch back to petrol due to low pressure beeping. Then I remember the 'issue' with King and MagicJet injectors selected in the software. Whoever wrote King firmware must've got the wrong idea about MagicJet injectors and think they're poor performers for some reason, because they set the minimum duration at 3.8ms and with the 3mm nozzles and 1.7 bar this meant rich running on over-run and possible cold running issues - So I selected Matrix in the software, this works well with MJ injectors, and re-calibrated the system. Then I note the fuel gauge isn't working. The installer had originally set the sender as being 'none standard' in the software, but had put in some very high numbers. Being a 4 hole with standard type sensor it was likely to be a 0-90 type, so I set this type in software. With £20 gas in the tank there should be something showing on the gauge, but there wasn't and the the software was showing a fuel gauge number of 6, I know it was showing 1 with an empty tank, so I check the green and white wires and find there's no connection between them. I join them together and the gauge works - another cockup by the installer.

The owner collects their car and is very surprised that it can change between petrol and gas so smoothly - like 'wow is that running on gas now, really?', that it drives just like on petrol and that it doesn't beep under any circumstances except when the tank is empty. I advise the owner that, should they wish, the system can run totally on gas even at full throttle with the engine doing maximum rpm if they upgrade the reducer, but since there's no towbar fitted it might not be worth it on a Lucida... And advise them again that a valve lube system really should be fitted. I tell the owner that, if they'd come to me first, i could have supplied and fitted a similar system but with a bigger reducer and including the valve lube and the tank issue fixed for £600 and that would've been with me supplying the parts. I tell the owner a few stories about other customers that have been to the garage central to doncaster before coming to me, they say they will put in a complaint and gave me permssion to post this on this forum. The owners consider the doncaster garage thats central to doncaster a cowboy outfit that rip people off, the outfit that talks the talk but don't know what they're doing - They learned the hard way just like many others.

[classicswede]

I think anyone in the trade will be well aware of teh installer you are refering to.

[J66P]

guess you should share who it is then and we can avoid them ?

I need my Landcruiser 3.4 V6 Prins Vsi going on a machine to check set up and I want to go somewhere that is going to give me value for money

[Gilbertd]

Google Central Garage, near Doncaster........

[LPGC]

Simon

I think anyone in the trade will be well aware of teh installer you are refering to.

I think they must mate. Being local to this garage I get a lot of customers who have been there for either installs or repairs so I've heard a lot of customer stories. The amount of bs advice they give customers and their prices, often for none successful repairs, never cease to amaze me.

As the OP I think I'd be leaving myself more open to potential slander action than other posters on this thread if I were to mention names. But, as Gilbertd suggested, Google is a great tool. I have pictures of the install they did and screen shots of the calibration screens with the engine running. The customer has confirmed the pictures of the install are the finished job by the garage in question. The customer isn't happy with them at all.

J66p if you're in this area I can set your VSI system up, would do a good job, wouldn't invent fictitious faulty components, and would charge less than others in this area. Why do you think it needs setting up though?

Simon

[J66P]

J66p if you're in this area I can set your VSI system up, would do a good job, wouldn't invent fictitious faulty components, and would charge less than others in this area. Why do you think it needs setting up though?

Simon

currently down on fuel consumption, I am only getting around 12 to 14 to the gallon where as a few others in the same truck are hovering around the 20's

[classicswede]

I suggest you phone simon as he is often not on here for days on end

[J66P]

okey dokey, I have found his number out thanks a lot