Injector Replacement Poll!

[sijones]

So, thinking of replacing the injectors on my Picasso as am not sure they are really that good and I think I might be able to get a rail that fits a bit better under the engine cover... So the question is, which is best, kidding - as we all end up arguing / discussing which is best etc am thinking the question should be, of all the cars that come in for service / repair, what is the most repaired / replaced injector make / type?

Am sort of thinking of going with the Magic's, because Andy has fitted them and they fit under cover but seen other recommend the valteks 34's as well so how well do they get changed repaired compared to others?...

[Tubbs]

First of all you would need to consider the ecu you have fitted and what injectors it will support.
Now the magic jets are good. But you have to be very careful with them and the fly leads do tend to break over time and heat cycles. They may just be a throw away unit. Ive never tried to service one.
The valtek 34's are a single injector in a common gas rail. So each injector is seperate. Undo the nut on the bottom and they just pop out through the top. Ive only ever seen one fail. The coil was down. So i replaced one single injector. But to be honest they dont really go wrong.
Andy would say magic's. I would say 34's ?

[classicswede]

There is very little in it with most injectors as they are nowmuch better than they used to be.

The Magic jets are good but I have seen a few fail. They are throw away if they go wrong.
The valtek type 30's are compact and have a limited life but can be repaired.
Type 34's work fairly well but are bulky and do suffer with odd failures.
Hana and Keihin are both very good but bulky and if one should fail then it is throw away. These are probably the nearest to apetrol injector
BRC are very noisey
Matrix used to be good but in recent years since the increased amount of gunk in LPG they do not tolerate it well.
OMVL - the old type droppedoff like flies but the new plastic ones are much better

There are lots of other makes out there like Rail, Romano,Bosch,AEB,Lovato etc etc

It is a case of what are you expecting from teh injectors and how much do you want to pay?

[rossko]

'Best' for what? What are you hoping to gain? Look flashy, go faster, use less? Do you truly care about 100k+ reliability? The more specific you can be with the requirement, the easier to narrow the field.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Keihin for longevity, but they're really unlikely to be any use with your mystery system.

[LPGC]

I agree with Independant for the main part.

Would first consider if you need side outlet injectors or down outlet injectors. I hate to see most types of injectors orientated in such a way that the plungers move horizontally - many injectors don't all last as long or work as well when fitted in the wrong orientation. I see a bad install if injectors are mounted in the wrong orientation.

Like independant says, I would check which injectors your ECU supports, but then I wouldn't necessarily limit myself to the injectors on the ECU's list. Choosing an injector type from an ECU's list generally just alters the peak and hold settings (for driving the injectors electronically) plus can alter the minimum injection duration allowed. Sometimes some of these settings limit quickly responding injectors to a much higher minimum injection duration than the injectors are really capable of, and vice versa can also be true. But of course, the resistance should be correct.

I agree with others previous comments on this thread regards the Magics. Good response and flow but have had a few fail, still a few out of how many over several years isn't too bad. They're a pain to fix needing a very thin spanner.. For side exit injectors, I often fit OMVL superlights and find them good performers (not as good performance as the old metal OMVL injectors but still good and more reliable / longer lived) and not as good performers as Magics, but more reliable than Magics. Have fitted a great many Superlights since they first came out and struggling to remember any wearing out or going wrong. Have mentioned just a couple of injectors and plus points for both of them. I know a lot of suppliers and wouldn't want to start mentioning which injectors I wouldn't fit but there are a great many makes/types I wouldn't touch! As far as the AEB 'name on the box' kits go, for most of these brands I would prefer to fit the old bulky square Matrix injectors where space allowed and if the option was there (these were excellent performers and reliable too but the rounded Matrix aren't as reliable).

I think it would boil down to which ECU was fitted. If the ECU calibration is so basic that it only allows for flat injection time multiplying (probably Egas) then I'd likely fit MagicJet or Hana. For Prins (for which the ECU is nearly as basic) it would probably be Hana injectors - but only if Keihin had to be ruled out for some reason. If the ECU has calibration adjustment just for load, then depending on the vehicle would probably go with Magics but your Picasso doesn't really demand the last word in injector response or linearity so I'd go with reliability and maybe quiet operation. If the ECU has both load and RPM correction (most of these are AEB but there are many others.. Stag has RPM adjustment but it doesn't work great despite the fancy looking software and I usually try not to use Stag rpm correction) then would open to up to a wider range of injectors.

Simon
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
07816237240

[sijones]

'Best' for what? What are you hoping to gain? Look flashy, go faster, use less? Do you truly care about 100k+ reliability? The more specific you can be with the requirement, the easier to narrow the field.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Keihin for longevity, but they're really unlikely to be any use with your mystery system.

Fair do's, sorry it's a King System Non-ODB (Plastic case), so I think there is pretty much support for all the injectors mentioned.

The OMVL Fast I have don't quite fit under the cover, and am not certain they are performing very well (they are already noisy at 6k), obviously this is just down to my opinion on them.

The car doesn't do many miles, around 6k a year so 100k miles isn't needed, what am after is a set of injectors for accuracy of injection, as the slightest over fuelling triggers the MIL and it can't be cleared from a handheld scanner it has to be from the Citroen tool - luckily I have it so can clear it myself but it's a pain and it's logged in the memory permanently every time I clear the log, I know the map needs a little tweaking but am thinking I may as well replace the injectors before doing that.

Looking at prices, the magic's are around the £50, 34's £75, hana's £100 so there is a difference of £50 between cheapest and most expensive, am not fussed much about which ones at what price, I suppose I need to know which is a good injector and then which is least likely to fail and to repair / replace.

Thank you for the info so far on which are repair and which you just replace, i'll prob end up buying a spare injector just to have in case of repair needed future wise!

[rossko]

'Accuracy' in injector terms is about two things really - well for gas, we don't have to worry about spray patterns.

Matching - you need them all to behave the same in your 'set'. It doesn't matter much if they don't behave the same as Fred's set, so long as yours are all alike. Hence the advice not to replace singletons in a set, all or nothing. This is the stuff that goes wrong with aging injectors - the rubbers cause them to bounce differently, spring sag or gunge causes different timings etc.

Linearity - the system software tries to get injectors to behave as on/off switches. In reality they are not, open/closing times vary, flow rates vary etc. This can be approximately compensated for, but the less approximating to do the better. Pintle-style injectors (Keihin,Hana) tend to do better here than low cost solenoid styles, but so long as the base software is half decent thay will all work well. The differences only really show up when you push performance levels. Fit the right size for the job, support them with the right vaporiser, set the whole shebang up carefully and all will be well.

Different construction have different lifespans in use - that doesn't bother you. I doubt any of us could say which will do best in low-mileage old age, which is bit different. I suspect it would still be pintle types.

Frankly anything suggested so far will work. If you have doubts about the OMVL items just refurbish them with a kit, cheap and simple. The careful setup is likely to be the bit with most benefit.

EDIT - forgot about Matrix which are quite unique, with good linearity. I've never had any troubles with them, except two cases after shall we say 'intrusion' (reassembled incorrectly). Might be a regional fuel/climate complaint that others have about them.

[LPGTECH]

Hi if you thinking to spend money for good injectors ill advice you to go for Hana injectors you can get them on the Rail
http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-hana-c-inj ... conn-rail/ and the rail http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-hana-4cyl- ... r-housing/

or if you want to hide them you can use single mounting hana http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-hana-c-inj ... nn-single/
and distributor rail http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/hana-4cyl-inje ... l-plastic/

we have in the offer middle price range but good quality injectors Barracudas for more info go to http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lpg-barracuda- ... tors-rail/
they are Hana copy, but from my experience i have newer complains about them from my customers, and they happy with them.Difference betwen Hana and Barracusa is that barracudas to not have different size colours, you have to drill calibration nozzles to the right size, another good thing about them you can use same nozzles from your Magic Jet just swap nozzles, as they have same resistance like Magic Jets after the nozzles swap you don't have to calibrate you system.
If you need more info just let me know.
Cheers
Jack

[Charlie Renard]

Hana's aren't pintle - they have a (rubber covered) plunger inside which weighs 4 gram - are we all sure actually how good they are ??

[LPGTECH]

Hi i can only say that i selling them over one year now. sold them quite lot. never had complain about them, even one don't come back on warranty.
that is all what i know how reliable they are.

[Tubbs]

With all due respect LPGTECH, I can't say I had ever come across you until very recently. And I've been knocking around this industry for a good while. I don't know what you class as volume sales figures. I have a good idea with companies like autogas worldwide and Tinley tech. So when they say 'we have been selling romano injectors for x years and only had 3 fail' you know some serious numbers are behind that statement. Same with Mr Tinley. A lot of the polish companies seem to be pushing HANA's quite hard. But only recently in the uk. They all say the same. We have been using them for years etc. so how come all the polish kits come with Italian reducers and Italian injectors then ?

[LPGTECH]

With all due respect LPGTECH, I can't say I had ever come across you until very recently. And I've been knocking around this industry for a good while. I don't know what you class as volume sales figures. I have a good idea with companies like autogas worldwide and Tinley tech. So when they say 'we have been selling romano injectors for x years and only had 3 fail' you know some serious numbers are behind that statement. Same with Mr Tinley. A lot of the polish companies seem to be pushing HANA's quite hard. But only recently in the uk. They all say the same. We have been using them for years etc. so how come all the polish kits come with Italian reducers and Italian injectors then ?

Hi i cant compare to Tinley or Autogas worldwide, I know website shop its no so long on the market, but i was doing direct sale to garages with my van for last year,everyday on the road visiting mainly london/manchester/leeds areas , and i can say that Hana's(Koreans injectors on the LPG market from 1998) from MY experience are very good and i have got good product to sell in my shop.Italians they just had better marketing in this part of Europe that is why they are well known.Polish kits using Valtek as a budget injectors or Hana as a premium both of them are good quality in their prices range.Same with reducers why change something if it works well anyway KME reducers are very good.In my opinion Polish are best in electronics and software i have been using or servicing most lpg makes on the market as i was running garage for last 5 years , and i have been spoken with lots of installers in UK, and most of them saying the same when they try it .You just have to try it otherwise we can speak here for next years what is better:) i can come to your place and do for you presentation.
Just to compare last year in Poland 200 000 cars were converted to LPG and there is +30c in summer and -20c in winter in Uk 15 000 cars were converted last year and temp is +10c on average for whole year. Tell me where you will get better review for equipment?
With Regards

[Tubbs]

Its true, when i started converting cars 16 years ago Italian stuff was all you could get. Along with witty tanks, the first polish stuff i saw was single hole stako tanks. Hold on, i forgot Impco. They where always about.
Having fitted it all, i have to say the Italian systems are just better. Familiarity may breed contempt. The Leonardo was streets ahead of anything on the market. I think, personally that the current AEB OBD ecu is also way, way ahead. I see a lot of systems day to day. And i see a lot of stag and kme pretty badly installed and exhibiting running faults on a weekly basis. So im bound to be a bit biased.
They may be very good. I do generally manage to get them running again reasonably well. But the little fine tuney bits don't really seem to do much. You can mess about with them till the cows come home.
I see very little AEB stuff with problems, most of the problems are down to injectors or reducers. Its very rare to see a failed ECU.
I said this quite recently. Personally my customers are not my Guinea pig's. They pay my wages and they get good service. And they come back every time they buy a new car, for a gas conversion.
So i fit a good quality system. If they have to come back then its unfortunate. I want to see them as little as possible

[Tubbs]

And si... We seem to have deviated from the original question ?
My advice, go straight down the middle and fit a set of 34's. You wont be disappointed.
What reducer are you running ?

[classicswede]

When you look at it there were only 2 producers of ECU's in Italy, AEB and BRC. In my opinion AEB had a mush neater and user freindly package compared to BRC.
The parts the other italian manufactures were making - reducers and injectors at the time in most cases were not great. Things have moved on a long way since then
The AEB Leo was great in its day but the KME Bingo is streets ahead. I do not fit closed loop mixer systems any longer as the small amount of saving is just not worth it so it is either open loop or sequential.

The down side with AEB is that they are not true sequential like most of the Polish systems like KME and Europegas. AEB is great for older cars that run full group injection etc but for more recent stuff the Likes of KME are much better. The key is knowing how to set the system up correctly and how to use each of the features.

If AEB is what you know and are comfortable with then stick to it.

You are right that most conversion problems are down to installation. The number of times I have seen teh worng injectors programed in and wrong settings in the ECU is unbelivable. Years ago it was mostly with AEB ECU's now it is all sorts. You know normaly just by a glance under the bonnet as to what a installation is like.

[sijones]

And si... We seem to have deviated from the original question ?
My advice, go straight down the middle and fit a set of 34's. You wont be disappointed.
What reducer are you running ?

Am running a OMVL Dream XXI-G, i believe rated to 180BHP, my picasso is a 2.0 producing 140BHP roughly.

If you think that might be pants then let me know as am a little peeved that I get the MIL, I know it's prob just the map but honestly I seem to mess about with it constantly and the MIL will stay off and then suddenly after a few weeks it will pop back on!

So that's why in another thread I was thinking of replacing the ECU for one that does ODB, that way I can run the auto cal and then connect the ODB and forget it...

Did have a little thought about buying that new LPGTech with Magics and just redo the frontend for a little experiment!

Am not going to throw any of it away if I replace it, so it's not wasted really as I'll put it to one side for another car that might not be so sensitive to the mapping.

You never know Tubbs, i finish on 14th Dec for crimbo so I might make a special trip out to come have a brew with you and use your shiny scanner!

[Tubbs]

The down side with AEB is that they are not true sequential like most of the Polish systems like KME and Europegas. AEB is great for older cars that run full group injection etc but for more recent stuff the Likes of KME are much better. The key is knowing how to set the system up correctly and how to use its features

Care to expand on that ? If you look at the diagnosis page it shows all the injector times of each injector. You can turn them off/onto petrol separately. And if you get the cut wiring wrong then you certainly know about it. How 'truly sequential' do you want. The petrol ecu is sequential, in turn it fires the gas injectors sequentially.
I don't believe they aren't sequential, you wouldn't be able to do such modern stuff on a non sequential system without a load of problems. And they all run perfect. The most modern car i have done has been 2010. Had no problem with that. A non sequential system would fall down on can bus. The slow and fast trims change at pretty much the same rate when you get it all bob on.
Let alone valve tronic/ start stop and multi air applications....

[sijones]

The down side with AEB is that they are not true sequential like most of the Polish systems like KME and Europegas. AEB is great for older cars that run full group injection etc but for more recent stuff the Likes of KME are much better. The key is knowing how to set the system up correctly and how to use each of the features.

If AEB is what you know and are comfortable with then stick to it.

Sorry didn't read your reply properly until now!

It's quite interesting what you have said about AEB, as I said in my previous reply, I did think trying out the LPG Tech, seen as this is just for myself I can use what ever I like...

I have only installed 2 systems, ESGI and the King, so it's not a case of comfortable with either, I have read plenty of posts about what each setting does in the AEB software but don't feel it's right but maybe that's a limit of my knowledge and not being "trained" and using it day in day out...

[Tubbs]

And si... We seem to have deviated from the original question ?
My advice, go straight down the middle and fit a set of 34's. You wont be disappointed.
What reducer are you running ?

Am running a OMVL Dream XXI-G, i believe rated to 180BHP, my picasso is a 2.0 producing 140BHP roughly.

If you think that might be pants then let me know as am a little peeved that I get the MIL, I know it's prob just the map but honestly I seem to mess about with it constantly and the MIL will stay off and then suddenly after a few weeks it will pop back on!

So that's why in another thread I was thinking of replacing the ECU for one that does ODB, that way I can run the auto cal and then connect the ODB and forget it...

Did have a little thought about buying that new LPGTech with Magics and just redo the frontend for a little experiment!

Am not going to throw any of it away if I replace it, so it's not wasted really as I'll put it to one side for another car that might not be so sensitive to the mapping.

You never know Tubbs, i finish on 14th Dec for crimbo so I might make a special trip out to come have a brew with you and use your shiny scanner!

Welcome mate....not so shiny any more ! Its been well used, dropped and got mucky paw prints all over it its pretty rugged though it has to be said. Even managed to survive a can of relentless getting spilt on it. It was a little sticky for a few days but it was ok once i gave it a wash !
IMHO si, dai (classicswede) is wrong about the aeb ecu not being seqential. Well the OBD one anyhow. Cant say about the king eco. Never fitted one TBH. I know the non OBD type that doesnt blend petrol isnt, and has half the functionality of the OBD one.

[sijones]

Tubbs, do you keep any stock of the 34's?