newbie, hello astra G 1.8

[joshnosh]

hey everyone im new round these parts, just poping in to say hello

iv currently got an astra G/MK4 hatchback 2002 SRi in sapphire black
its fitted with a z18xe engine (an in line 4, 1. and im looking to fit a LPG system to it to save myself some cash
i estimate ill save at least £100 a month so its worth doing in my opinion

i will be doing a DIY install. i was initially put off by it but it dosnt seem that hard. ill have some help from some mates and we have done gearbox changes. engine swaps, fixed all sorts of problems and i know my way round this car quite well now
im an electronics engineer and iv got machining qualifications so i pretty much think iv got all the bases covered for this thing!

before i start asking loads off questions i just want to know if there are any FAQs or Beginners guides? i don't want to go clogging up the forum with things that get asked all the time lol


thanks
josh

[rossko]

Have you decided on a vapour injection system? (I would recommend that)
If so, see if you can follow this
http://www.zavoli.com/upload/manuali/en_file_7.pdf
which is of course system-specific but covers most general concerns

A cautionary tale
http://lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8148
don't let it put you off, so long as you can appreciate what went wrong

[joshnosh]

thanks for the info. why wouldn't that guy buy proper hose lol? its not even expensive!

iv read up and it seems like most off the work is in making it nice and tidy

im considering buying an second hand prins system from a 2.0 turbo zafira so that should be the same unfortunatly it needs difrent injectors and there 200 quid second hand lo

[john_d]

has it really been almost 2 years since that classic thread?

[rossko]

im considering buying an second hand prins system from a 2.0 turbo zafira so that should be the same unfortunatly it needs difrent injectors and there 200 quid second hand

humm, well you're talking Rolls-Royce system - but starship durability not needed for a well loved Astra.
Sellers overvalue any used gas system, but especially Prins (I'm a Prins fitter and I've never bought a used one for my own cars). Of course you could be getting a bargain!
It's not suitable for your car without significant expense, as you've found.
Prins software, leads and guidance are not readily available to DIYers, though cloned leads and pirated software are sold.

You'd need sundry bits and bobs, but that's true of any used purchase. As is the small chances of a used tank from some other model being the best fit for you.

[joshnosh]

whilst i dont want someone else to snap it up i shall post a link to it!

http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10939

there are orange injectors that are for sale on ebay for 200 quid and i could sell the yellow ones but id prefer to keep them really for use on an astra turbo

the guy says he has the leads and programming and i have found some manuals (in German though) that detail the installation quite well. and im guessing i may be able to get some info from this site and members like yourself rossko

im desperately trying to keep the cost down without cutting corners.
i was also looking at 2 more options befor i found this kit

kits from yorkshire autogas but they seem quite expensive http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/psychosime999 ... 4340.l2562

and this kit



so far i have priced up to a total off about £425 which would be a great price!

tank: £80
filler kit: £25
multivalve: £25
pipe: £30 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-6mm-flexi ... 4ab7bd15fc
heater tubeing and lpg gas tubeing: £15
certification: £50

which works out at £225 plus whichever front end kit i go for

im looking at thease two but my mind is open:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-cylinders-L ... 35bb85c543

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-STAG-4-LPG ... 3a7333a591

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261029345121? ... 1438.l2649

[Tubbs]

Tinley tech sell a budget kit. King ecu, valtek injectors and an omvl reducer i beleive. From a DIY perspective you probarbly need some back up from the supplier. Once you have done a few its not too bad. But it is always worth having someone you can call. The forum isnt always the best place to get your answers.
Tinley Tech may not be the cheapest. Generally because you have to give quite a bit of tech support.
You will find the cheaper companies like gas price will not give any. And the kits are pretty bare. And if you dont really know what you are supposed to have how will you know whats missing ?
So i suppose what im saying is you get what you pay for ?
Personally i would steer clear of a secondhand prins system. The bits may be hard to find. Italian based systems are good, they all run pretty much the same ecu so you will find a lot of people know their way around them. The polish systems are ok, but component failure is pretty high. They use cheap italian hardware like injectors and reducers. But do you see a problem with component failure on a new system, and your first time ? How would you know how to trouble shoot it ?
Dont get me wrong, im all up for DIY, i fitted my first system DIY back in 1996. And trust me, we hardly had an internet. And everything i managed to get my hands had instructions and wiring diagrams in Italian. Lots of head scratching and no real idea....but i got it done and running on gas by trail and error mostly.
But its far easier nowadays to install a kit if you have a good engineering head on your sholders and a it of common sense.

[joshnosh]

frount endhttp://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Ki ... _Kits.html
full kit http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Ki ... _Kits.html
would you recoment this then? whilst i like the idea of having someone to speak to about it i dont like the idea of paying for support im not going to use!
i mean it comes with instructions right? so just follow the instructions. if they dont make sence i should have the right to ask what it means without paying for support shouldnt i?

im also not sure if i should go for front end or a full kit. it doesn't seem too much for a full kit
if i can find the right tank i should be able to get it all the back end for under 200 quid though? or have i missed something out?

few more questions:
where can i get it certified once iv done it and how much dose this cost?

is there any benifit to the obd compatible systems?

thanks
josh

[pjpj]

When you have a problem with Microsoft Windows Vista, who do you call? Do they sort out your issue or do you feel somewhat fobbed off?

Good luck communicating with Italy and Poland, they will likely tell you to contact their authorised dealer which is not likely to be where you purchased the kit.

Personally I would go with a full kit. Tanks are only certified for ten years.

Measure twice (If your grey cells are on a slippery slope write it down) cut once. Best of luck.

[joshnosh]

well im 19 so iv still got a good memory and iv very computer literate

but i do understand what your saying.

thing is iv seen some tanks for 80 and 60 quid brand new
all i need is a filler kit and a multivalve right?

senn multivalves for 40 and filling kits for 25. i a couple off jubily clips and tie wraps, p clips ( the pipe comes with the front end kit as far as i can tell)

and that works out at less than 150 quid for what there chargeing 240 for. what am i missing?
josh

[pjpj]

Considering this is your first then I would recommend you buy everything from the same place. This prevents any issues of liability of anything, safety, operationally etc,

Of course if you buy everything from the same place and it all installs without a hitch then you will say ' I could have saved myself £xx by purchasing xyz from elsewhere' of course, you really don't know that for sure, it could have been a nightmare.

Do it right first time or it will take twice as long to correct.

[rossko]

thing is iv seen some tanks for 80 and 60 quid brand new

Tanks are not all alike; small cylinders are cheap, large toroids are expensive. Do you have a particular style and size in mind, to make the most of the available space?

all i need is a filler kit and a multivalve right?

Well, you might need a tank mount frame depending on style, gas-tight box, vent hose and bushings depending on proposed location ...

the pipe comes with the front end kit as far as i can tell

What pipe? Frontend kit does not always come with front-to-back, and never filler pipework.

[joshnosh]

thing is iv seen some tanks for 80 and 60 quid brand new

Tanks are not all alike; small cylinders are cheap, large toroids are expensive. Do you have a particular style and size in mind, to make the most of the available space?

now you say that theres even more of a difference since the tordis are 30 quid extra at tinley tech
im planing on putting it in my spare wheel well so i need a toroid yes. the the 60 quid one will defiantly fit but its only 40l and the 80 quid one might fit. iv worked out the diameter off a 205, 55 16 wheel to be bigger that the tank by just a smidge so if that fits in my boot then the tank will

Well, you might need a tank mount frame depending on style, gas-tight box, vent hose and bushings depending on proposed location ...

i was planing on useing some metal plate placed over the wheel well and bolted at each side to keep the tank in the well.
would this be sufficient?
i was also thinking that its a good idea to have same venting between the area inside the donught out the bottom off the car to atmosphere, weather or not it is a requirement?

What pipe? Frontend kit does not always come with front-to-back, and never filler pipework.

on the tinly tech site it says plastic coated copper? so in this case im presuming that's what its for? im not to worried if its not though since ill just go buy some its not a major problem. also i presumed that there would be some left over that i could use for the filler but again not a big problem if theres not

[mat_fenwick]

the the 60 quid one will defiantly fit but its only 40l and the 80 quid one might fit

The 40 litre one will take just over 30l gas. My advice would be to spend the extra few quid on the biggest tank you can get in, as for me the only drawback to LPG is having to fill up every 200 miles or so. You can get toroidal tanks with a filled in centre, making better use of the available space.

I'd echo the comments of others about getting a full kit. You are bound to need some support during your first install, which you MAY be able to get from this forum but not necessarily. If you'll be saving £100 a month then the difference is forgotten a few weeks down the line anyway!

OBD kits are not essential.

[Tubbs]

Josh, not trying to be condecending by the way, just for a laugh how much is the insurance on your astra as a 19 year old ?
You can get a 58 or 60 litre tank in as i remember. The one thing that no one has mentioned, unless ive missed it of course, is valve seat recession ? The engine is definately on the cautionary notice list.
Torroidal tanks come with all the vent arrangements, spreader plates etc.
Generally the front to rear is 6mm and the filler is 8mm.

[joshnosh]

Josh, not trying to be condecending by the way, just for a laugh how much is the insurance on your astra as a 19 year old ?

thats ok no offence taken. a grand total of £900 which is not bad for just over a years driving when i took out the policy. when renwal comes up i can get an astra turbo insured for £1200 but i cant afford one yet some im working makeing my current car a cheap runaround hence the lpg iv got a whole another donner car for parts that my mate used to have (he broke it a little bit lol) so its not that expensive to run. dosnt mean i haven't spent loads modified it though lol. (dont worry its not a barry mobile and i dont live in essex)

You can get a 58 or 60 litre tank in as i remember. The one thing that no one has mentioned, unless ive missed it of course, is valve seat recession ? The engine is definitely on the cautionary notice list.
Torroidal tanks come with all the vent arrangements, spreader plates etc.
Generally the front to rear is 6mm and the filler is 8mm.

i "think" the astra engines have sodium filled valves and hardened seats but dont quote me on that. i know the turbo engines do but im not 100% sure about mine

yeah iv seen the factory fitted astra tanks and i thought they where over 50 but apparently not
"The factory-fit LPG for mk4 Astra is quoted as 46 litres in the Vauxhall brochure"

iv seen a few second hand ones on ebay that are from astras but im worried that i cant get them certified? so that's why i want to buy new

[joshnosh]

the the 60 quid one will defiantly fit but its only 40l and the 80 quid one might fit

The 40 litre one will take just over 30l gas. My advice would be to spend the extra few quid on the biggest tank you can get in, as for me the only drawback to LPG is having to fill up every 200 miles or so. You can get toroidal tanks with a filled in centre, making better use of the available space.

there so much more expensive though! and where do all the valves and senders go ?

theres a lpg station right outside work so im not to worried although it might get annoying id expect

I'd echo the comments of others about getting a full kit. You are bound to need some support during your first install, which you MAY be able to get from this forum but not necessarily. If you'll be saving £100 a month then the difference is forgotten a few weeks down the line anyway!

surely though if i buy the front half as a kit then i get support for that? and obv iv never done it befor and its a little Nigh eve but i dont foresee any problems with the rear end
id rather have the installation advice of forums anyway to be honest.

i just cant justify spending more though it hurts my head lol. if it was 60 quid or less then i wouldn't bother but there's quite a difference to be had!

OBD kits are not essential.

not essential no but are they better? do they require less user intervention and are they better for a newbie?

thanks
josh

[mat_fenwick]

Don't know about better; the OBD connection MAY allow you to 'get away' with a less than ideal calibration. Better in your case might be cheaper (and spend the difference on a larger tank ) I find the limited range more of an issue because there is no out of hours LPG available round here, and at 15mpg running on petrol gets a little pricey! If you have better availability and better mpg for when you have to run on petrol it may not be such a big deal.

[pjpj]

yeah iv seen the factory fitted astra tanks and i thought they where over 50 but apparently not
"The factory-fit LPG for mk4 Astra is quoted as 46 litres in the Vauxhall brochure"

I believe two sizes were used. I get 54 litres into mine from time to time and get 300ish miles to the tank (Standard 1.6's) at apx 36mpg petrol. You'll only get about 180miles out of a 40 litre tank.

Get the biggest tank you can. Also remember the extra weight in the boot will effect handling.

That insurance is not as bad as I was expecting it to be for you.

[joshnosh]

Don't know about better; the OBD connection MAY allow you to 'get away' with a less than ideal calibration. Better in your case might be cheaper (and spend the difference on a larger tank ) I find the limited range more of an issue because there is no out of hours LPG available round here, and at 15mpg running on petrol gets a little pricey! If you have better availability and better mpg for when you have to run on petrol it may not be such a big deal.

well there's a station near my house and one about 4 near work +one on the way home so i can fill up fairly easily. my car dose about 28mpg at the moment and a 52l tank last me just over a week.
bigger tanks have obv advantages though!

its not such a case off spending a few quid more on a bigger tank its finding one that will fit well. tinly tech do have a big selection of tanks but that mens spending about twice as much on a tank! im not sure its worth that!