SE5a Scimitar with Essex V6 running on LPG

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MikeyBikey
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SE5a Scimitar with Essex V6 running on LPG

#1 Post by MikeyBikey » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:23 pm

Hi

I have a Reliant Scimitar with a 3 litre V6 essex and twin weber carb that i want to convert to single point open loop lpg. I've brought the car back from the dead (off the road for > 20 years) and its great, powerful but very thirsty, hence the conversion.

I have bought a 'used' multipoint injection system off of a scrapped car. This will give me my tank, plumbing and on off switch. It also has the lpg filter. I have also bought a mixer suitable for the carburettor (it's a single carb with two throttle bodies)

What i don't have is a vapouriser / reducer.
lpg solenoid
Pipework from tank to front of car
Instructions...


Can you please recommend suitable vapouriser / reducer and or where i can get decent instructions.

I had intended to purchase a kit from my excellent local lpg guru but the expected funds has not materialised and so money is tighter than a knats *rse so would like to attempt creating my own kit and installation.

thanks



( I have a 206 running lpg (already on when i purchased car) so big fan of lpg. I'm also very technically / mechanically compentent but never put an lpg system together)
Last edited by MikeyBikey on Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Gilbertd
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Re: Plse recommend a SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6

#2 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:41 pm

The Bigas M84 should easily be up to the job of a 3 litre Essex engine. It can be bought, along with everything else you are likely to need, from Tinley Tech (http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Sp ... ories.html). For front/back pipe, use Faro flexible rather than copper from the same place. They are also very helpful so won't mind if you start asking them stupid questions....

What is the date marking on the tank? If your insurance company want to see that the car has been inspected and entered on the database, the tank must be a fair bit less than 10 years old. Where do you intend fitting it? I know there's not a lot of space in a Scimitar. There's one local to me and he has had a small petrol tank made up so he has been able to fit a reasonable sized cylinder tank where the petrol tank used to live.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

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Re: Plse recommend a SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6

#3 Post by rossko » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:34 pm

MikeyBikey wrote:I have bought a 'used' multipoint ... on off switch.
That probably won't be of any use at all. Changeover strategy is very different between carbs and injection. Bodging an on/off switch omits safety features like gas cutoff on stalling/accident. Recommend a proper "carb" LPG switch, not expensive. An inspector would look for this.
www.blazegas.com

MikeyBikey
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Re: Plse recommend a SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6

#4 Post by MikeyBikey » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:29 pm

ok thanks for advice

Yes have already talked to tinley about a complete kit but now out of my budget but will talk to them regarding individual components. Toridial Tank is about 4 years old. Will go where existing tank is.

I am toying with completely removing petrol system and run lpg only....

rossko
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Re: Plse recommend a SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6

#5 Post by rossko » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:12 pm

MikeyBikey wrote:I am toying with completely removing petrol system and run lpg only....
Can be done - but usually impractical for a road car. If you've not run LPG before, you may not have had the experience of rolling into the Motorway services to find the only LPG pump is broke...

It's more common for return-to-yard-each-night vehicles like council vans, where supply is gauranteed.
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MikeyBikey
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Re: Plse recommend a SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6

#6 Post by MikeyBikey » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:03 pm

Thanks for the advice. I have read a lot of blogs / threads and advice from thie excellent site and have decided not to buy from ebay . I will save my pennies and work with my local lpg guru. He's extremely experienced and it ensures i get a quality system. Its very tempting to buy cheap of ebay but trying to save a couple of hundred will mean nothing if i buy from some unknown and can't get it to work. I intend to keep the car long term and so need to build a relationship with the lpg guy so that he can trouble shoot as well. My daughter has a mk1 golf gti that I also want to convert so knowledge transfer gained from my install should help with that one.

will keep you informed though.

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SinglePoint open loop system - essex v6 3litre

#7 Post by MikeyBikey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:30 pm

Just thought I'd give you an update. Finally received the front end components last week so completed the fit.

First time i've ever converted (although already own a 206 converted to lpg by previous owner).

And it all works fine although it''s the simplest of solutions. Single point open loop driving the essex V6. She even starts fine on lpg.

reducer - OMVL 90
Carb programmable switch - AEB
petrol solenoid valve
filler point
copper pipe to and from tank
various other bits of pipe and clips

I already had a second hand toridial tank
Couldn't sleep at all thinking through exactly where I was going to put each bit, etc etc. It's not complicated but it is involved with wiring, waterworks, petrol, mixers and lpg supply (liquid and gas) so planning takes a while.

So the reducer was going to go by the wiper motor. Easy access to water, gas supply and electrics however the reducer was too big so put it where the wiper resevoir used to be. (After dismantling the wiper motor!!)
Image

Doesn't sound like much but took all morning as I then had to re-plan all the waterworks. (wasted night then !!)


Image


So I used to water supply from the thermostat housing, and the return to the top of the water pump. It actually works very well :)

Image

The switch is by my left knee,,

Image


and the cabling follows the normal loom


the gas goes out of the reducer via the overlong hose into the back of the K&N where I have the mixer nice and hidden.

Image


This tank was bit of a pig. It was 1 cm wider than the recess !!

Image



Daughters Mk1 Golf GTI next :D

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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#8 Post by rossko » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:28 pm

Tell me those tinplate straps aren't all that holds the tank in ....

You're supposed to have resilient material between tank and straps i.e. plastic coated straps or rubber liner.
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MikeyBikey
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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#9 Post by MikeyBikey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:52 pm

Yes. :?

They are on long bolts so I can put the liner material inbetween. The straps were recommended by a local (well established) trailer maker and are of galvanised steel. I did ask for thicker but he assured me this would suffice as thicker wouldn't be flexible enough.

rossko
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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#10 Post by rossko » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:56 pm

Straps are used routinely for LPG tanks, but these just look thin! Depending on tank weight, three may be required. Someone with COP11 to hand will be along to qoute from the table I expect ...
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MikeyBikey
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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#11 Post by MikeyBikey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:50 pm

Thanks. I did actually order three straps so will ensure I fit the last one. The car isn't actually used daily yet and is booked it for a review on friday by my loal lpg garage, from whom I got the front end 'kit' / new components so hopefully they'll clarify the strap suitability. I know I need to put some shielding between the exhausts and the tank but the pipe supply is shielded by the chassis legs.

I realise the car looks a bit tatty in the pictures but it has had a completely rebuilt , uprated engine and the external bodywork / paint is very good. So once the lpg is sorted and settled I'll move onto the interior.!!

FYI the engine has the higher compression pistons, (9.8 : 1), high lift cam, big valve head, tubular manifolds, and to supplement the ht side it's got electronic ignition, iridium plugs, uprated sports coil. Just want to get some decent ht leads now but that will be out of next months budget :roll:

However there was a misfire before (when on petrol) and there stilll is so hopefully friday will get to the bottom of that.

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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#12 Post by Tubbs » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:05 pm

Maybe im being picky, but personally i wouldnt run a water pipe through the centre of the drive belt. If it snaps its going to take out the hose in all probability. And just cable tying a pipe to a bracket without anything between will also rub through over time.

Gilbertd
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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#13 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:09 pm

and don't forget the possibility of air locks, I'd have kept one hose low (under the alternator) while keeping the other at the same level as the top of the vap and the point where it enters the cooling system. That way any air trapped in there will flow out with the circulation.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

MikeyBikey
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Posts: 36
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Re: SinglePoint open loop reducer -essex v6 3l kit now fitte

#14 Post by MikeyBikey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:13 pm

I was off work last week and concentrated on getting it fitted and lo and behold it works. No one was more surprised than me as this is the first lpg i've ever attempted. And yes totally agree, the whole fitment needs tidying but thanks for the feedback everyone.

Re the water pipe. The vapouriser was originally to be fitted at the back of the engine bay where the pipes were long enough but having to move it meant I had to 'compromise'

MikeyBikey
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Re: SinglePoint open loop essex v6 - timing query

#15 Post by MikeyBikey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:46 pm

Can anyone please tell me what the timing should be for lpg on the essex v6. With petrol its 14 degress btdc. I have been advised advance another 4-6 degrees to 18-20 btdc.

I have done this but she now hesitates to start (as though a slightly flat battery). Once she's fired she seems to run fine but I recognise the hesitation characteristic from when she was running too advanced before (on petrol though).

Gilbertd
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Re: SinglePoint open loop essex v6 - timing query

#16 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:52 pm

That means you've got too much advance, the peak combustion is happening before the pistons reach top dead centre so it's trying to run backwards. Back it off a couple of degrees. Ideally you want a slight increase in advance at low revs but more as the revs go up. Now we are really into the black art of changing the springs and bob weights in the distributor, good luck.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

MikeyBikey
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Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:39 am

Re: SinglePoint open loop essex v6 - timing query

#17 Post by MikeyBikey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:38 pm

Yes, I understand completely. One of the characteristics of the essex is lots of low down torque. They tick over at 600 rpm and are ideally used in the lower rev ranges. Even with the big valve head and high lift cam she doesn't want to much over 4500 rpm.

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Re: SinglePoint open loop essex v6 - timing query

#18 Post by tom-madbiker » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:07 am

im surprised you dont get a lot of lag on the lpg under accelrration as your gas pipe to the carb looks about 2 foot long i did my brothers scimitar i used a 50 litre cylindrcal tank and cut the petrol tank in half and i mounted the vap on the angled bit near the wiper motor used the r90 vap even then the low pressure lpg pipe is about 14" long i advanced the ignition about 2 degrees i think

MikeyBikey
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Re: SinglePoint open loop essex v6 - timing query

#19 Post by MikeyBikey » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:41 am

tom-madbiker wrote:im surprised you dont get a lot of lag on the lpg under accelrration as your gas pipe to the carb looks about 2 foot long i did my brothers scimitar i used a 50 litre cylindrcal tank and cut the petrol tank in half and i mounted the vap on the angled bit near the wiper motor used the r90 vap even then the low pressure lpg pipe is about 14" long i advanced the ignition about 2 degrees i think
Hi Tom.

The pipe is actually about 4' long !! I was going to put the vap where you stated but didn't wan't it leaning into the engine bay. (Thought it had to be upright ??)
As it was my first conversion I was concentrating on getting the kit running. I need to run through it again. Might even move it back to the wiper location as per the original idea.

The engine does struggle to tick over and there is bit of a lag at low revs (probably connected withy the poor tickover) but once she's over 1500 rpm there's no problem. It takes a little while to start cold though (on lpg all petrol removed).

However there is a misfire at low rpm. There was one in petrol days but rather than spend a long time sorting it i thought of converting to lpg then if the misfire was still there to pursue it.

The engine has had a lot of work including new big valve heads put on a month ago so I'm hoping the misfire isn't head gasket. Not a big job but I want to finish jobs, not keep revisiting, which seems to be the case with a 40 year old car :?

tom-madbiker
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Re: SinglePoint open loop essex v6 - timing query

#20 Post by tom-madbiker » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:12 am

if the vap is leaning slightly it wont matter but it wants to be with the diaphram facing towards the wing again as long as its somewhere close it does not have to be exact i fitted it on the angled bit at the back of the engine bay on the r/h side looking from the front

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