Is it possible to fill a LPG Tank with a Butane Bottle?

[996TURBO]

Hi,

I met a guy at the pump yesterday that lives half the year in Marocco. He told me that since there's not any LPG pump there he uses Propane from bottle.

He has a local made adaptor and fill by gravitation, looks like it can take a night to do it.

I think it's technically possible but there's some risk.

What do you think?

Cheers

Flo

[john_d]

What do you think?

i think the search button is your friend

[996TURBO]

Ok read some threads about that. Looks like it's interesting when :
-LPG isn't available
-Bottles are extremely cheap like in Marocco (4GBP for 13KG bottle)
-you have a LPG transfer pump

[richard_ha]

Be wary of the tax man!

[Gilbertd]

Autogas sold at filling stations has road fuel duty added to the cost whereas a propane (not butane) bottle doesn't so the tax man can get very upset if he finds out you are running a car on fuel that hasn't had the duty paid on it. Not a worry in somewhere like Morocco but you wouldn't get away with it in the UK. Also, Autogas sold in the UK is 100% propane but in other countries it can be a blend of propane and butane (anything from 90% propane down to a 50/50 mix).

[binder4]

Over here I've seen a few blokes with a connector added in to their lines so they can just attach a 9kg BBQ bottle in when necessary. (Some more remote areas its a long way between service stations that sell gas.) verey expensive wau to use gas here though, pump price about 60c a litre, refill your bottles and its about $2 a litre for BBQ bottle through to 45kg size.

obviously most forklifts running gas just swap the bottles in and out. Installing that sort of a system might be quicker and easier for you than decanting out of gas bottles in to your car tank (and a lot safer)

[rysiontko]

Autogas sold in the UK is 100% propane but in other countries it can be a blend of propane and butane (anything from 90% propane down to a 50/50 mix).

Especially during winter should be propane.

[SimonHobson]

I can't see any reason you couldn't use Butane (though I have wondered if any retuning might be needed) - but as already mentioned, there's a temperature issue. By about 0˚C, the butane will no longer boil off at atmospheric pressure - basically there'll be no pressure in the tank to push the fuel through the pipes. You don't need a huge pressure, but you need at least enough to push the required fuel flow rate through quite a lot of small pipe and fittings ON TOP OFF the pressure required at the reducer output (b***er all for a mixer, around 1bar for an injection system).

I've been caught out when caravanning - actually I was at a competition with a borrowed van. When I got up in the morning, I could barely get the cooker to light, let along boil the kettle - I can wrap up warm, but missing out on a cup of tea Spent the morning hunting for somewhere that could sell be a propane bottle and regulator.

Whatever gas you use, you will need a pump - see this article. There are (or should be) two non-return valves in your filler line and the back pressure from these will be enough to overcome the pressure differential from gravity (unless you hoist your bottle to a great height). Any temperature (and hence pressure) difference could also act against gravity filling. lastly, if the tank has any propane in it, and you try to add butane, the tank will be at a much higher pressure.

[Allan1010]

You don't need a pump at all. When I lived abroad in the 80s I discovered you can raise the vapour pressure in the "donor" cylinder by filling a watering can with hot water and using that to push the gas through to the other tank.

[SimonHobson]

You don't need a pump at all. When I lived abroad in the 80s I discovered you can raise the vapour pressure in the "donor" cylinder by filling a watering can with hot water and using that to push the gas through to the other tank.

But a pump is quicker and easier I'd think. While I fully appreciate the technique (I've used the reverse, ice to extract refrigerant from an old A/C unit to "recycle" in my car's A/C), what happens to the vapour pressure in the recipient vessel when the warmed liquid from the donor gets into it ?

[Allan1010]

Simon, you're absolutely right about the pump, but given a choice of having to buy one or another, I'd rather but the watering can! So if cost is an issue juust be aware that a pump is not absolutely necessary.
Regarding vapour pressure, it is obviously raised as the vapour pressure is increased in the recipient tank. All I can say is this was never an issue, regardless of donor cylinder size (from around 10Kg through 45Kg) and regardless of ambient temperature or season. Equipment costs for the transfer were cheap and it worked!

[tucker1]

Let me just say that I don't condone the evasion of fuel duty, but in all honesty, as someone who knows a little about enforcement matters such as this, the chances of HMRC dealing with an indivudual on this level are non existent, zero, zilch!

Where enforcement is concerned HMRC have a terrible track record across their whole remit. They are ONLY interested in significant sums of money and sizeable operations.

If you were to open up a pump selling fuel to the public without the duty there's a good chance you will get closed down at some stage.

However, I'll bet you there were no individual on this level talk of here prosecuted last year, or the year before or the one before that.

Just look at how few people are dealt with for income tax evasion annually. Unless you are an actor or a premier league football they wouldn't even give it the time of day. Tax Credits, well that's just another complete joke!! Fortunately the enforcement of tax credit abuse is being taken off them supposedly in 2013, so something might actually get done regarding that.

If someone told them that you were doing this, they'd toss the the details in a bin unless the sums involved were into the tens of thousand.