Newbie Advice

[radddogg]

Hi there,

Great forum, looks like you have a wealth of knowledge here and i'd like to tap into it, please.

I have a 2004 vauxhall zafira 1.8I automatic. I'm interested in converting to LPG and would like to ask a few questions.

Firstly, is it going to be worth doing? I currently do about 10k a year. According to drivelpg.co.uk I should save about 600 a year, so I think I should break even over 18 months.

I just paid 135 for 6 months tax. Am I right in thinking there is a saving to be made in road tax? And if so how muuch?

Next, what systems are available for the 1.8 ecotec engine? What is the best? What is the cheapest? Pros/cons?

I live in Preston so where is the best/cheapest installer?

Ebay have a self install kit for about 800 which they check and certify. Is this a good idea? I am proficient with the old spanners but is it really gonna save me anything?

Sorry for the mass of questions, I hope you can help.

Regards

Rob

[classicswede]

Hi Rob,

do you have more details on the ebay kit? There are some good and plenty of not so good kits on ebay. You are doing enough miles to be worth while but buy a good system.
There are a number of installers in your area for a fully fitted system.

[lazydocker]

Hi Rob,

As above, you certainly do enough miles to justify a conversion if you intend to keep the car.

As for RFL (Tax), the discount is a whopping £10 per year But better in your pocket than someone elses

DIY kits can be fine. My 3.2 Omega was DIY converted with a Stag 300+ system, using a KME Gold reducer as the automatic Omega has proven to be a little "quirky" when running on LPG if the vaporiser is slow to respond to the changes in demand for fuel at gearchange This system runs perfectly and there is no difference in performance whatsoever.

One thing to think about with the Zafira is the tank and location of it. I'm sure it has been discussed on here in the past but can't remember the outcome Obviously the ideal solution would be a toroidal tank in place of the spare but there may be a requirement to provide it with some sort of protection due to its location.

Finally, you must ensure that the engine is in good condition before you embark on a conversion. LPG will highlight any HT weaknesses that may not be apparent on petrol

[radddogg]

Hi there, thanks for the replies.

The ebay kit is HERE

It seems pretty cheap for a new kit but I have no idea if it will be good for the zafira or not.

Tank location would have to be in place of the spare wheel I think, but the seller inspects the install and certifies it too so I don't think it would be a problem. I believe the engine is in good condition having only done 80000 miles. The only issue is it wasn't serviced for three years and 26000 miles (bloody lady owners! - I don't understand why traders think its a selling point to be owned by a lady - what they are really saying is its been kerbed, never serviced and the tracking will be out! )

[billynoband]

If you look through my posts for "Zafira diy" you will find loads of info. The tank is no problem and it's nice to have it outside the car.
If your engine is the XE model you will not need Flashlube but judging by the year it may be the later model which does. Most engines after 04 need valve lube according to a reliable installer on here. If you type your reg number in the Euro car parts web site it will give you your engine code.
You will spend between 6-8 hundred on a diy install including certificate, it depends on which system you buy.
The Astra engine converts well it seems but pay a bit more for quality injectors like Matrix and don't be fobbed off with cheap ones.
You could get a standard medium priced system (Zavoli, omvl, bigas or Romano all with Matrix) fitted for £1400 all in nowadays by a good installer. By the time you have got around to the diy install this would have payed for itself in fuel savings. Plus if you buy one of these systems you can learn to service it yourself.
If you want a fit and forget system buy Prins or BRC but they may be overkill on a standard car. Bloody good though.
You can expect around 25 mpg average on lpg.
You will find a good installer in the "Find a pro " section. Good luck.

[rysiontko]

I just converted my vectra c 2003 with Z18XE engine. My bits: ecu stag300+ ISA2 (self learning), reducer zavoli zeta N, injectors hana2000 on rail. Everything works perfect, and that was DIY job.

[radddogg]

Yes it is the z18xe engine. So does the kit in the link seem ok or do I need to find out more info?

[rysiontko]

They don't say what they install.

[radddogg]

Just had a reply from him.

This system is entirely suitable for your Zafira - I own a Zafira with the Z18XE engine which I have converted to LPG using this same LPG system.

This is the latest type of sequential multipoint injection LPG system and is certainly the best system to suit your vehicle.

Without being argumentative or avoiding your question on brand, it is best to point out that it is better NOT to think of LPG systems in brand name terms. There are many 'brands' of system on the market, but these systems comprise components that are made by several manufacturers - E.g. a Zavoli system will have an ECU (which has been stamped with a Zavoli badge but is the exact same component as that supplied with OMVL, Bigas, King, and a wide range of branded LPG systems - this ECU is manufactured by AEB in Italy). The Zavoli system will use a Zavoli vaporiser unit, the injectors may be manufactured by Zavoli or Matrix, so the reducer may be the only part made by Zavoli. In the above example we could supply you with a Zavoli system and the Zavoli brand name would equally apply if we supplied you with the Zavoli injectors or if we supplied you with the Matrix injectors. The Matrix injectors would be better than the Zavoli injectors but we don't rate the Matrix injectors highly either. In this example, we could supply the same Zavoli vaporiser, Matrix injectors and the exact same ECU (with a different sticker on it) and the system would be cheaper than you could buy a Zavoli system elsewhere.

We consider LPG systems not on 'brand' of system but in terms of which brands of actual components they comprise. We include the best performing and most reliable components in our systems. This may seem like mixing and matching, true, but this is just what component manufacturers do in order to sell full systems. The difference is that we select components for performance and reliability, chosen from experience, rather than in boardroom deals with other manufacturers.

Regards,

Simon
LPGC

[rysiontko]

Avoid them as they can install any s...t telling you that this is good for your car. Save your time and money.

[Gilbertd]

But so could any other supplier. There reply is perfectly acceptable, and correct. Unless you buy the parts separately and install it yourself, most people will have no idea exactly what make the indivdual components are.

[Tubbs]

I think thats a pretty fair reply. So the bloke is saying that its a kit involving aeb electronics. Actually the reason for all this is that in italy you have to have the same 'brand' system on the car in order to have it approved.
Its not such a bad idea as the set up and tuning is a bit overwhelming for a novice who hasn't ever seen the software before. And it gives you the opportunity to make sure the kit is installed correctly and all the inputs are right etc.
It does seem like they are slightly skirting the issue as far as kit goes though. You could quite happily cobble a kit together out of any old rubbish though.

[rysiontko]

Ask them what EXACTLY they will fit into your car.

[LPGC]

Hi,

The copied text in this thread (above) is a reply that I wrote to an Ebay enquirer. The link (above) goes to my company's website.

We don't sell any old s**t as one person has suggested might be the case above. I now wonder what system that person installs, and how truly informed their advice can be if they usually install one type of system on all vehicles and if all the parts in that system come in one standard box. If that person fitted a Bigas system or a Zavolli system or an OMVL system, then all those systems are AEB based, yet they all come with different reducers and different injectors. I wonder that person hasn't noticed a difference in reliability or performance of these different components and then hasn't developed preferences for which system he fits on a normal conversion and preferences for which system he fits on a mega turbo conversion, and then I wonder if he has tried different components to further improve the system... We have! When it comes to LPG systems that come in a box with a brand name on that box, it is best to think outside the box! If you're going to be independent in LPG, be truly independent! Be independent of thinking you must install the same old parts that come in the same old boxes - a Zavoli reducer and Zavoli or Matrix injectors together with an AEB ECU with a Zavoli sticker on it, or an OMVL reducer and OMVL Reg injectors with an AEB ECU with an OMVL sticker on it, or a Bigas reducer with Bigas injectors with an AEB ECU with a Bigas sticker on it? I know which I would choose out of the above. I would choose one of the above reducers and one of the injectors and it doesn't matter which ECU because they are all the same - Usually I wouldn't choose any of the above reducers. Depending on which application, I might not choose any of the above parts at all. I won't mention my preferences from the above here because I am on friendly terms with suppliers of all the above!

We sell kits that are put together from components that we know are reliable and good performers. We know which are the good and bad components because we see/repair so many LPG converted vehicles and we convert so many LPG vehicles ourselves. So for example - If we see a lot of a certain LPG system, and the injectors on that system never seem to go wrong, and the injectors on that system perform well (i.e. fast response times, good flow rates, linear operation) and those injectors also make for a neat install... then you can bet we regard those injectors as being good and you can bet they find their way into the kits we sell. The same applies to all other LPG components we see. All LPG systems are made from individual components and components can be mixed and matched - indeed they are mixed and matched by the people who sell the branded kits in a box and can be mixed and matched better with the application of knowledge, experience and lateral thinking. We don't really like all the components that come in any 'standard' type box - you can bet there will be a bad component in any branded system you can buy. When you buy a branded system, not all the components in that box are of the same brand anyway. The components in that box are put together in that box because of deals between ECU manufacturers, reducer manufacturers and injector manufacturers, but they are usually the same components within each boxed brand all the time. If you would like info on any LPG component, based on experience not prejudice, you are welcome to ask me.

The reason why I don't go into a lot of detail about which components we would advise we put in a customer's kit is because we offer choice. Quite often I am asked 'what system would you advise for my car'. Well, I can likely advise many different systems for their car and I might regard them all as very equally suited, equally up to the job, equally reliable and they will probably all cost about the same. So I try to explain this, and then ask the customer 'which system have you heard of / would you like'. Quite often the customer will have been on the forums or phoned a few companies and is then convinced by things they have been told or read, and usually the things they are told are coming from someone who has a narrow range of experience or who is biased and wants to hype up a certain thing - narrow as in only installing one or two brands of system which always come with the same components out of a box, and narrow as in they are not familiar with all those other system components out there because they have never properly worked with them. Anyway, the customer sometimes says something like 'yes I've heard good reports about that system or those parts so I'll have that them please' and if I think all those components are good choices I will say so. On the other hand, say if the customer asks for a system which includes really poor injectors, I will mention it and advise them I'd rather supply different injectors. If the customer leaves it to me I am very confident they are getting an excellent system that is on top of the job for their vehicle and very reliable.

The truth is that it is possible to put a great LPG system together these days from a wide choice of ECUs, reducers, injectors. Just talking ECUs for the moment, ECUs have different capabilities, but that doesn't always make one better than the other. AEB ECUs have the disadvantage that they only read petrol injection duration from the first injector on each bank of cylinders, so are not capable of acting as true slaves to the petrol system because they cannot differ injector open duration times on different LPG injectors - whereas many modern petrol ECUs can an do differ injector open duration times between injectors - To put this another way, if a car was made that had one lamda probe per engine cylinder then an AEB system would never be able to run it - but many none AEB systems would. But this also means that AEB systems cannot compensate for quickly changing loads at low rpms like many none AEB systems can. However, AEB systems do offer accurate mapping for both load and rpm and offer petrol addition ability for those mega power turbo conversions. A lot of other ECUs only allow mapping against duration, not rpm, but these usually have the advantage of measuring each petrol injectors duration. The RPM correction on some of the none AEB ECUs is crude - but rpm correction isn't usually important anyway, and better quality injectors means even less correction is needed. We regard AEB control systems as being good on certain applications, some none AEB systems better at other applications, and some other none AEB systems to be poor. Horses for courses sometimes! It is just the same with reducers and injectors too - and then there are the little bits that can go wrong like sensors....

Simon
LPGC

[rysiontko]

We don't sell any old s**t as one person has suggested might be the case above. I now wonder what system that person installs,

That person is me. I am not installer, I do not install systems, I just converted my vehicle myself because I am mechanically skilled and I can bet 1000's pounds that I did it better than 100's of installers.

I wonder that person hasn't noticed a difference in reliability or performance of these different components and then hasn't developed preferences for which system he fits on a normal conversion and preferences for which system he fits on a mega turbo conversion, and then I wonder if he has tried different components to further improve the system...

Be sure I did.
What do I say is - tell your customer what you'll install in his/her car for his/her heavy earned money, try to be transparent and competitive and nobody including me will say you're selling s..t.
After your long poem we still don't know what you are capable to install in this car.