UKLPG want to keep my LPGA certificate.

[billynoband]

I recently sent my lpga certificate to the UKLPG to have my vehicle put on the register. The car was not registered because the part of the company that converted my car closed down before the registar was invented. Mike Chapman e-mailed me after I asked when it would be sent back but he said they are required to keep the certificate. I said I wanted it back as buyers and insurance companies are so far behind the times and want to see it at some point. There is also the fact that it is my property as I payed for it.
Watch this space.

[Humi]

Hi mate just wanted to say that i am on the same boat as you i had mine converted to LPG only yesterday but the instaler told me that they dont do certificates any more its all online at DRIVE LPG or something like that but then the question is what do i do about my insurance and if i want to sell the car because people will ask for a certificate he registered my car as LPG CONVERETED with my private registration which means if ever i decide to take it off then the UKLPG REGISTER will not recognise my original number plate as being LPG.

[SimonHobson]

There is also the fact that it is my property as I payed for it.

Correct.

The magic words are "Theft Act 1968" :

A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it

A person guilty of theft shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years

[billynoband]

Mike Chapman recons that it is not mine as these were never sold but "given as is". Will they be asking us all to send our certificates back to them? There will be a fee to be on the register next for the honour, wait and see.
He has offered to send me a copy and a note saying they have the original. I duly bent over and said ok, thanks. They need not think they are getting the one for my other car . Miiiiiine, or is it?

[rossko]

There will be a fee to be on the register next for the honour, wait and see.

There is ; new conversions and inspections have to pay (same as they did for the old bit of paper).
You are exchanging your bit of paper for an electronic registration. I expect they want to keep the bit of the paper because it's being viewed as a 'ticket' to indicate you've already paid (some time ago), but you only get one free ride.

[SimonHobson]

Mike Chapman recons that it is not mine as these were never sold but "given as is".

Doesn't matter whether it was sold or given - unless it was made quite clear at the time it was handed to you that it was not your property, then it is still your property.

Personally I'd be standing my ground - or only send them a copy. But then I'd qualify as a grumpy old git I think.

[junkcatcher]

An they wonder why they don't have a good reputation.

[billynoband]

Smells like more regulation to me, another Labour Party left-over.
Will anyone who has a lpga certificate for a car be offered membership of the register scheme soon, for a price? or else you can't get insurance threats etc etc ,might be dangerous, be illegal to change your filters yourself.
If you get caught changing your own engine oil in 5 years time you will be sent back to mother in a cardboard box, or get a fixed penalty ticket maybe, which by the way is a life sentence too and is not the way of keeping people out of the justice system as Tony Blair stated.

There will be a fee to be on the register next for the honour, wait and see.

There is ; new conversions and inspections have to pay (same as they did for the old bit of paper).
You are exchanging your bit of paper for an electronic registration. I expect they want to keep the bit of the paper because it's being viewed as a 'ticket' to indicate you've already paid (some time ago), but you only get one free ride.

[SimonHobson]

Smells like more regulation to me, another Labour Party left-over.

In this case it's nothing to do with government - UKLPG are 100% a commercial body with zero regulatory powers. But they are intent on cornering the market and making themselves a de-facto regulator. It was clear from the language used by them in the past that they see the future as one where they do get a legal monopoly and no-one can do anything with LPG without paying them for membership.
Hopefully that time is not close.

[mat_fenwick]

You are exchanging your bit of paper for an electronic registration. I expect they want to keep the bit of the paper because it's being viewed as a 'ticket' to indicate you've already paid (some time ago), but you only get one free ride.

But in this case, if I understand it right, they are not putting the vehicle on the UKLPG register, but still retaining the LPGA certificate?!

[rossko]

I think billy meant his car was not automatically already registered ...

[billynoband]

Correct Rossko, I already had the lpga certificate from the install 3 years ago. When I checked the register recently I found this car was not on it so I sent it to the lpga as suggested by then in another thread from around christmas time. I presume my car was not on the register because the shop that installed it had closed 2 years ago and not been able to send/register the certificate to the uklpg like other installers which are still around should/may have.
I don't see why they need the certificate as thousands of people who have one from a old lpga install will already have their car on the registar as their installer will have registered the car if they are still in business. Just seems like a power game to me.
Mike Chapman said they are required to keep my certificate but as they are not a legal body with powers over the public nor do they have to answer to anyone in theory this means they just want it to have control over me. Required by who?

[mat_fenwick]

Ah. That makes more sense now...but I still wouldn't be too happy in Billy's position though.

[SimonHobson]

Mike Chapman said they are required to keep my certificate but as they are not a legal body with powers over the public nor do they have to answer to anyone in theory this means they just want it to have control over me.

I think you've answered your own question there.

Required by who?

By their own self imposed rules - which I think they'd like to be law.


Like I said, what you do next depends on how important you see this. If you really want the cert back, write to them by recorded delivery (so they cannot possibly claim not to have received it) demanding return of your property. Give them a reasonable timeframe (such as 7 days from receipt of letter). Point out that it is your property, and if they do not return it then it is the criminal act of theft as defined in the Theft Act 1968, for which the maximum penalty is 7 year in prison. But if you do go down that route, you really need to be prepared to follow up (by reporting it to the Police) if they call your bluff.

Personally, I'd agree with you, a printed certificate is important - not everyone has access to their private database which I can't help thinking could be a deliberate ploy to increase their control.

[rossko]

not everyone has access to their private database

Yes they do, anyone can check any number plate to see if it is registered, that is the whole purpose.
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/

Obviously only UKLPG can add vehicles, that is an advantage to eliminate look-alike and fraudulent certificates.

a printed certificate is important

Haven't issued one with a conversion or inspection for nearly a year now, same as all other UKLPG installers.

[lpg-cars]

The original LPGA certificates were a 2 part document. The car owner was given the top copy and the installer kept the other.

Problems that arose were:

DVLA lost the certificate when owner notified them of change of fuel. They refused to accept a copy so installers had to issue a duplicate.
Customer lost the certificate.
Certificate does not get passed on to new vehicle owner by seller/auction/dealer etc.
Installer shuts up shop.
Non registered installers giving fake certificates.

All these factors and many others meant that it was difficult to prove that a car was genuinely certified.

With the register, anyone can check to see if a car has been installed or inspected by a registered installer.
You can search http://www.drivelpg.co.uk by registration number or VIN in case the car has had a number transfer. (BTW you can notify UKLPG of a number change by sending them a copy of the V5)

If you have an old green LPGA certificate and your car is not already registered, you send UKLPG your certificate and they will add it to the register.

If you do not have an old certificate and your vehicle is not on the register an approved installer can inspect the installation and register it if satisfactory.

Our charge for inspection is £75 and £25 for registration. VAT to be added. Other installers may charge more or less.

Once the vehicle is registered we print off a confirmation on our letter headed paper which allows the customer to prove his vehicle is registered if they do not have access to the web at the time eg when presenting their V5 to DVLA.

The register has been running since June last year and following a meeting last month, there will be some minor improvements.

[Gas Power UK Ltd]

Hi All

A part from

The original LPGA certificates were a 2 part document. The car owner was given the top copy and the installer kept the other.

Problems that arose were:

DVLA lost the certificate when owner notified them of change of fuel. They refused to accept a copy so installers had to issue a duplicate.
Customer lost the certificate.
Certificate does not get passed on to new vehicle owner by seller/auction/dealer etc.
Installer shuts up shop.
Non registered installers giving fake certificates.

The Data base was to help the emergency services, so when they are called out to a car that has been involved in an accident, they can proceed with the knowing that all the safety components have been fitted correctly to that car.

The data base was also set up, so that if you were buying a LPG car, you can check for free if the car has been converted correctly. (so you can sell your car for more )

In this case it's nothing to do with government - UKLPG are 100% a commercial body with zero regulatory powers. But they are intent on cornering the market and making themselves a de-facto regulator. It was clear from the language used by them in the past that they see the future as one where they do get a legal monopoly and no-one can do anything with LPG without paying them for membership.
Hopefully that time is not close.

Once you car is on the register, that's it, if you are inspected and charged for entry onto the register, after that that's it, there is no further charge but if i were you, I would have the LPG on the car checked once a year, for safety.

As one of the people who gives up his time for free to improve the LPG / autogas trade, by sitting on meeting held by UKLPG, if you have any ideas of how we can improve the registration system, please drop me a line and i will float it at the next meeting for you.



Best regards

Stephen Fricker
Managing Director
Tel +44 (0) 1392 879290. Fax +44 (0) 1392 879290.
Company Registered no 4126060 @ Gas Power UK Ltd. Unit 2 / 4, Clyst Works, Clyst Road, Exeter, Devon, EX3 0DB Vat Registration no GB 777 6017 00 http://www.gaspoweruk.co.uk

[junkcatcher]

As i get older I get more cynical .......................

[SimonHobson]

The Data base was to help the emergency services, so when they are called out to a car that has been involved in an accident, they can proceed with the knowing that all the safety components have been fitted correctly to that car.

I'll be polite and say that I'm rather sceptical that on arrival at an accident, the Fire Service are going to hang around while someone looks up the vehicles in the database. In any case, official policy at my local force is (or was last time I heard) to stand well back and do nothing other than keep people away until the vehicle burns out by itself if they believe it might be LPG. In that respect, there's an advantage in not being on the database (if the Fire Service actually do use it).

The data base was also set up, so that if you were buying a LPG car, you can check for free if the car has been converted correctly. (so you can sell your car for more )

You mean, like an MoT tells you anything about the state of a vehicle ? it means nothing other than at some point in the past someone certified (mostly likely) their own work. Some of the worst conversions I, and my mates in the trade, have seen have been certified. And anecdotally it appears that LPGA were never bothered about enforcing standards or dealing with complaints.

Before anyone in here gets the wrong end of that, I'm not saying that all professionals are bad - merely that, like other trades, some of them are. Also like other trade associations, it appears that membership of the trade body isn't the guarantee of ability that many consumers assume it should be.

In this case it's nothing to do with government - UKLPG are 100% a commercial body with zero regulatory powers. But they are intent on cornering the market and making themselves a de-facto regulator. It was clear from the language used by them in the past that they see the future as one where they do get a legal monopoly and no-one can do anything with LPG without paying them for membership.
Hopefully that time is not close.

Once you car is on the register, that's it, if you are inspected and charged for entry onto the register, after that that's it, there is no further charge

Of course there is a charge. but there was no charge for me to quite validly (as a competent person) print my own certificate.

And as it's been discussed in here before, many installers (for obvious reasons) do not wish to get involved in certifying other people's installations. Where they do, an unscrupulous person could well use this as a means of making paid work by insisting on unnecessary remedial work. This is the automotive business, and of course we all know how trustworthy everyone is in that - one of the reasons I have my MoTs done at a place that doesn't do garage work having been on the receiving end of that in the past The guy I do use is also very good - and respected locally.

... but if i were you, I would have the LPG on the car checked once a year, for safety.

Yes, I service/check the system as required.

As one of the people who gives up his time for free to improve the LPG / autogas trade, by sitting on meeting held by UKLPG, if you have any ideas of how we can improve the registration system, please drop me a line and i will float it at the next meeting for you.

First step, acknowledge that your database is only a database of vehicle converted/inspected by your members - and that it is both legal and safe for non members to convert vehicles. As such, not being on the database does not mean an unsafe conversion.
Now if the database were opened up to non-members who are also competent persons to enter vehicles then that would remove a lot of the criticisms. Just as long as you don't promote the "lower" class of certification in a manner that automatically infers "lower safety standards".

Also, while it's not related directly to the database, a good step would be to start acting in a manner that doesn't make people suspicious. The simple fact is that when I first started looking at LPG for my first V8, I was told blatant lies about the legal situation by every LPGA registered installer I spoke to. I spoke to several, geographically dispersed and with no apparent connections other than the LPGA. The lies they told were so close to identical that I find it really, really hard to believe that this wasn't the result of guidance from the LPGA. Even if these installers had managed to come up with the same details independently, the LPGA should not have allowed that to continue or at least should have had sufficient guidance to it's members that they could not innocently believe what they were telling me. Nothing I've heard since leads me to believe the situation is significantly changed - other than it's now easier for people to find out the truth.

Add to that an obvious desire to become a de-facto mandatory monopoly (but without all the oversight that goes with a legal one) and I think you can see why people like myself are highly suspicious of them.

Sorry if that sounds a bit OTT, but as you might have gathered, it's something I feel quite strongly about.

[lazydocker]

Got to say Simon, I am in the same boat as you.

I'll just cover Omega's for now as the most recent car I own and have converted. I have looked at several "Professional", certified conversions for members of the Omega Owners Forum and only seen one that I would have driven away from the fitter... The others varied from generally untidy, through incorrectly fitted (insufficient coolant flow through Reducer etc), to downright dangerous (leaking LPG Vapour in the engine bay ). Certification is, as far as I'm concerned, as useful as the MOT...

The work met the standard of the person inspecting it (as you rightly say, frequently the same person who installed it) at the moment it was inspected

As for someone inspecting a DIY install... I know of someone who had their installation failed because he didn't put the wiring in trunking Don't recall seeing that in COP11 anywhere