THe Legal Situation of a LPG Converted car with problems ?

[Sparky]

Hello again.
I've recently asked a few questions because I had a long term mis-firing fault on one cylinder.( not ildling smoothly)
Finally after putting up with it for a long time, whilst the installers could not solve the fault , I've taken it back to the main servicing garage .
They've had the car for 3 weeks and finally have taken the engine apart to reveal burnt out valves. This is due to the LPG conversion I'm told and thus not under warrantee. I've taken photos and will now have to pay over £1500 to have it fixed.
Where do I stand? If the fault is a because of the conversion, can I expect to get the repair costs back from them? They were LPGA installers after all.
I don't intend gettingthe LPG system re-installed on this car. Should I just get the installation costs back? The car was faulty wthin one month of conversion, but its now nearly 2 years on.


Thanks , for any replies.....

[alexf2828]

Out of interest what car was it? did the convertor suggest flashlube?

[junkcatcher]

Even on a soft valve engine would take a lot more than one months running to burn the valves.

Also burnt valves don't take three weeks to diagnose more like 20 minutes -- either do a compression test or better still a cylinder leak down test.
Apart from rough idling the main symptoms of burnt valve are lack of pulling power on hills and overtaking (engine has to be taken to higher RPM) and excessive fuel consumption.


Tracing a single cylinder misfire is one of the first things an apprentice mechanic is taught to diagnose and a mechanic with his head screwed on should be able to do without any electronic diagnostic equipment.

(1) Check the strength of the spark.
If Ok if not try a known good coil pack (or distributer cap & rotor arm & plug lead).
(2) Take the spark plug out and examine it in comparision to the others and substitute another known good spark plug.
If No difference
(3) Check the inlet and exhuast manifolds are tight and leak free.
If OK then
(4) Check the fuel injector is getting pulsed --- use a noid light to check
If Ok Suspect a compression valve or valve clearance problem or much less likely head gasket.
(5) Do a compression test or cylinder leak down test.
and then
(6) Check valve clearances.
If all above OK
(7) Test coolant for combustion gases.
(8) Just to be 100% sure remove the petrol injector and swap with another cylinder.

Simple really just basic logic.

[Sparky]

Prior to taking back to the Renault main dealer, I've spent money doing compression test & Cylinder leakage test. Both were fine. Changed spark plug, HT lead etc myself. Was still cylinder 1 with problem
No problem when pulling way, just when idling.
It took them 2 weeks before they began to take it apart. May be not a high priority in the garage I guess! So by the time they took engine apart it was evident to them it was a valve problem. I couldn't see much myself. But I'm no expert.
No never heard of FlashLube.

I've taken some photo of valves. I'll post an address to a webpage soon of them.

If they re-assemble engine and its ok . I guess they did diagnose problem correctly.

This was my third car I've had converted. But, may be , never again!

[SAD199]

I am sorry for you being in an argument with Renault in this country. I've had my run ins with them over the more minor issue of blowing coil packs. They blamed the lpg, the lpg installer blamed the renault parts. It's a rock and a hard place really. Since my debacle I did some research and found that although renault don't sell lpg converted cars in this country, they do make provision for them in their service schedule. Specifically, they say the valves should be checked at specified intervals. No dealer is going to admit that renault valves are not up to the job of lpg and need monitoring, they're going to blame the installation over which they have no control. Thus the installer gets it for e.g. setting the mixture too weak or some other reason they can think of without any evidence. I actually heard myself saying, 'show me the evidence that the lpg is to blame'. They couldn't of course, but I couldn't demonstrate the opposite either. All very frustrating and unproductive. It depends on the sort of person you are and how far you want to push it, but be prepared for a disappointing time, and you won't be disappointed!!!

Best of luck and don't give up on lpg, choose a car with good valves, it's worth it.

[rossko]

Happens without LPG of course
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q= ... e+problems

Yet it's not totally impossible that the LPG could have a duff injector/pipe, causing lean on one cyl causing early misfire symptom and eventually valve damage. That's what will Renault will say.

No-win here

[Sparky]

Thanks for relplies. If you care to take a look at my valvle seats.....

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/juddbacku ... directlink

and see if it means more to you than me !!
I do see how the outlets are not as shiny as the inlets though.

[junkcatcher]

I have seen much worse even on engines that only ran on four star leaded petrol.

[SimonHobson]

I can't help directly, but I suspect manufacturers are always happy to be able to lay the blame elsewhere. When I did my conversion course, one of the things we were told is "whatever the fault, the gas will be blamed for causing it" - and they had situations where they've had to remove the gas system to prove otherwise.

One story they did tell us related to a batch of new vehicles they were asked to convert. Several of the cars didn't make it from the ferry to their workshop ! Of those that did make it, a number broke down shortly afterwards. They were called over to 'discuss' the matter, and it's clear the manufacturer (supposedly known for their quality, not some unknown from China or wherever) was expecting them to pay for a replacement engine. As they walked in, one of the mechanics they knew well wispered a hint in their ear. The problem was described - basically the engine had lost all oil pressure and seized. They replied "sounds like <well>", at which the bonnet was quickly shut and they were escorted out of the workshop having rumbled the stitch up. The manufacturer replaced the engine. It was widely known that the engine in question had a serious problem - something like 20% failure rate serious.

Now, given that manufacturers can behave like that with a fault that clearly isn't anything to do with the gas system, do you really expect them to admit any possibility of fault with a problem that could be gas related ?

The problem here is that you've taken it to a garage that isn't disinterested - they have an interest in it being "someone else's problem" and so it comes back to you to prove that someone else wasn't to blame. Sadly, that's impossible to do.

[rossko]

Looking at those photos, it do look queer. Not like any conventional 'burnt valve' I've seen, more like a strange pitting effect. Crystalline materials issue?

They might blame swarf from LPG manifold tapping - did they tap into ally?

[Sparky]

Aluminium?. I know they did make a couple of holes in the top of the engine. I often wondered if anything fell in!

My problem with the main dealers argument is that surely the fault would have got progressively worse if it was because of the valve seats and not appear one day and stay the same over the next 20 months.
He mentioned that the compression pressure was too high. A friend of mine said that might make the ECU reduce the fuel mix and perhaps that was causing the misfire on cylinder 1. Remenbering that pervious cylinder compression test results were Cylinder 1 160PSi and the ones were cylinders 165PSI

As the engine is now in bits, I do see that they have to deal with the valve seats, if not just to illiminate them from the problem. But I won't be suprised when later this week they phone me and says its been put back together , but the problem is still there. And then at that point have I spent £1700 fixing something that didn't need fixing!

[gfrost]

I wonder if the LPG is just getting the blame for some other problem.
The last car I had was a Renault Clio sport 2.0 litre, I had this converted at about 150,000 miles to test LPG, at 204,000 miles the auxillary belt snapped wrapping itself round the cambelt creating massive engine damage, but no burnt valve problems
My current car is Renult megane, I had this converted just over a year ago, this even had a template for the LPG filler next to the petrol filler, so obviously LPG had been thought of for this vehicle. This has currently done about 25,000 on LPG, both these cars are not fiitted with flash lube as I was told that the Renault engine did not suffer from soft valve seats, clearly time will tell, but as an earlier poster said, it would take much longer than 1 month of use

[Sparky]

Yes, my LPG inlet is tucked away next to the petrol filler. Wonderfully hidden.
I can't believe it would go wrong and stay exactly the same for such a long.

The Renau;lt engineer also said once it was fixed it get the mid-range bhp back. I told him it has bnever gone away! It was fine to drive at any speed . Only a problem when stationary.

I feel I need an independent expert for legal reasons soon!

[rossko]

He mentioned that the compression pressure was too high.

Not feasible (unless they fitted a diesel engine by mistake, or the bores are filled with some mystery fluid). Must have meant something else?

[Sparky]

Car fixed!

£1750 later ! New valve seats fitted by Renault. Also found that coolant leak is because of LPG installation. So Going back to LPG people later this week. Mainly to show them coolant leak and give them opportunity to rectify it.

I'm not going to risk running engine on LPG again. Considering puting PG system back on, so that one day I can part-ex it.
I'm not going to be in a situation where I can sell it privatley without telling buyer of previous problem. Happier tom pass it on to a garage.

PS Had email telling me I had private message. But forum says private mesages are disabled for this forum.

[SimonHobson]

PS Had email telling me I had private message. But forum says private mesages are disabled for this forum.

That'll be the spambot punting malware, see this thread.

[gavbriggs]

Car fixed!

£1750 later ! New valve seats fitted by Renault. Also found that coolant leak is because of LPG installation. So Going back to LPG people later this week. Mainly to show them coolant leak and give them opportunity to rectify it.

I'm not going to risk running engine on LPG again. Considering puting PG system back on, so that one day I can part-ex it.
I'm not going to be in a situation where I can sell it privatley without telling buyer of previous problem. Happier tom pass it on to a garage.

PS Had email telling me I had private message. But forum says private mesages are disabled for this forum.

if it were pitting and that would certainly fall into place with it happening so soon after the lpg install, you should ask them if they had the inlet manifold off at all.

if they say they didn't then most likely scenario is that swarf got in there, caused pitting and destroyed the valve seat!!! thats assuming its a metal inlet????

[rdd48856]

Sparky I sent you a private message on another forum.

I'm writing here because I think mine and yours information could be helpful for others.
I moderated a Portuguese LPG forum for some years.
As you already know I’m in the process of converting my car (a GrandModus 1.2TCE)
So this is what I think it happened to your car.
Your car suffered from two different problems.
1) The one that caused the misfire. It’s very unlikely that your valves could suffer valve seat recession in just a few Km. Or your valves had wrong clearances by the time your conversion was made(the first thing an installer should do when converting a car without automatic valve clearance adjustment is to adjust it, I believe your installer did that), or they were not the cause for you first problem. I know Renault is having Idle problems with some units of D4F and D4FT engines. My car was bought used on purpose to be sure that wasn’t one of those units.
2) Valve seat recession. Italian magazine QuattroRuote did a test to a Renault 1.2 TCE. They convert it to LPG and after 50000Km opened the engine. One inlet valve and valve seat where damaged(which is odd, usually the problem is on the outlet valves, this maybe indicate that petrol is important in refreshing the air entering the engine). So this engine is semi-critical and should be installed with FlashLube or similar. To know more about valve seat prevention read this: http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/VSR.html .Furthermore each driver of a high performance engine converted to lpg should be advised not to use it near its limits on LPG, to limit valve seat recession.
My advice to you is to ask your installer to program LPG ECU to inject petrol at idle and when turbo kicks in, instead of above the 3000rpm. I believe your FlashLube kit is the electronic type. You should check your valve clearances each 10000km to be sure FlashLube is working. You shouldn’t have bought your new valves and valve seats on Renault, there are valves and valve seats especially for LPG on the market.
How is your car now?

[pdams]

Hello !

Sorry for my english, I'm french.
I bought a Grand Modus TCE and made installed the LPG (Landi Rezzo) without flashlub. 30000 km without problem, then an error message displayed "Control pollution". Renault try to resolve the problem, but the only thing which resolves temporaly the problem is to adjust the valves. 6000 km later, the problem comes back : do you thing it's due to LPG ? Had something like a flashlub could resolve the problem ?
For rdd48856, have you problem, or the flashlub works ?

Thanks you for your answer...