LPG Vehicle database HELP!

[mylow]

Hi to all. Can anybody point me in the right direction, I have 2 LPG powered cars and have been insured with the same company for many years with no problems, however my renewal arrived last week, I am now being told that as 1 of my cars is not on the LPG database they can no longer offer insurance for the vehicle and I need to get the car inspected by a approved installer and placed on the database. So far I have contacted 3 approved installers and been quoted between £160 and £400 all plus any extra work required to remove trim panels etc. Where did is this database come from? Why is only 1 of my cars on it? Can anybody tell me where I can get my car inspected at reasonable cost? I live in the Lincoln area.

[Gilbertd]

The only database I am aware of is the Powershift Register (see http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/bus ... ion-charge). This lists all cars with specific LPG installations that have been fitted by specific companies and is solely used to see if you are eligible for London Congestion charge exemption. To get on it a car has to be converted with a specific kit and then submitted for emissions testing by the installer. Once it is on the list, any car of that model fitted with that kit by that installer is eligible. The same car with the same kit fitted by somebody else isn't eligible, neither is the same car fitted with a different kit.

It sounds like your insurance company have got the wrong end of the stick. All they can ask for is the installation certificate or, if you don't have one of those from the original installer, a safety inspection certificate issued by a responsible person.

My Saab has a safety inspection certificate issued by Jaymic Systems near Cromer if that isn't too far away.

[junkcatcher]

Change your insuran company try LV online

[woody]

The insurance company are right...!! for a change.

The old style LPGA C.O.C[certificate of conformity]has now gone 21st century and is done on line to a E directory to which insurance companys have access.
So if your vehicle is not registered, it will need to be .

If your car was converted by an approved installer and the A5 green cert was issued to you, it is possible that UKLPG have yet to put your vehicles details on "the system",they have a huge amount to input[if every one is going to join the scheme that is.

If you were converted by an unapproved installer then you will have to get it inspected and IF it passes it will then be insurance friendly.

If it fails expect a big bill.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings .............this is about 6 years to late.


woody

[rossko]

The new online UKLPG database replaces the LPGA paper certificate scheme from approved installers.

For anyone wanting to check their car,see
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/

Many insurance companies have 'bought into' the new scheme, and will expect to see "modified" cars on the register. More insurance companies can be expected to join it in future.

If you've got an old green LPGA certificate, us installers should have forwarded a copy for input (eventually). Some will get missed - lost or installer no longer trading perhaps - but there are instructions for sending a copy in yourself.

[billynoband]

Yea, look for another insurance company. They pull your pud once you have been with them a few years anyway.
When I had my install inspected I did'nt get any quotes over £100. The uk is the land of over-charging. Even the local lpga guy who did it eventually who moves like a snail took only a hour, appeared with a piece of aluminium sheet and told me to make a heat shield for the tank and bring it back fitted tomorrow to show him, charged me £90.
What panels/covers could possibly need removing? I would look else where. What area are you in? Good luck.

[rossko]

What panels/covers could possibly need removing?

The tank needs to be checked to see that is E-marked for example (it's a safety thing - and unmarked tanks have turned up in the UK). Depending on how it is mounted, the tank may have be removed in the worst case.

[tommo2009]

so there is now a database, what use will that be, just more money for the UKLPG who won't help you in any case wether you are an installer or a customer.

UKLPG are a complete joke as are most government boards. just out to see what money they can make and when someone needs assistance they suddenly have no authority to do anything.

[mylow]

Hi all, and many thanks to Gilbertd for suggesting Jaymic I have today spent better part of an hour on the phone to them ( very helpful people) they have explained to me in great detail the new UKLPG vehicle register as it’s known. I now know the reasons and the need for it, but I ‘am still not happy it’s going to cost me and lots of others quite a lot of money, the suggestion to change insurance companies seems likely to only be a short term fix as insurers now have the ability to check LPG conversion information over the internet they would have to be fools not to use it. So I have booked with Jaymic they quoted £124 + vat again plus any additional work they explained trim panels may need to be removed as they need to check the filler and as Rossco pointed in the worst case the tank remove to check the markings I’ll let you know the final bill... Other important information I have found out for the forum members is that this new database was launched in August this year. Any safety check reports done before this are not worth the paper they are written on as they will not be included on the database so will need to be redone also beware the new inspection includes a test to check the exhaust emissions are better on gas than petrol which is also failed if the engine check light is on or been disconnected.

[SAD199]

Having read this I'm left wondering why I didn't know anything about it before now. Was there any sort of consultation before it was introduced. It seems grossly unfair to suddenly land people with more bills at the drop of hat, in particular as it's retrospective. My car isn't on the database and it was converted professionally with a certificate.

[Gilbertd]

It does seem a bit sneaky I must admit. None of my cars are on the list but in saying that, only the LSE is listed on the V5 as dual fuel, both the others still say petrol. I bought all of them ready converted, I got the safety certificate with the Saab, a scrappy piece of paper with programming instructions with the LSE and nothing at all with the P38. Mind you, I've got a trade policy and they ask for no more than the registration number so I might be OK for a while at least.

[rossko]

Background info : UKLPG are not a government body, they are a trade association, bit like CORGI for domestic gas. Renamed from LPGA a while ago.

Whether or not an insurance company requires its customers to be on the register, is the insurance company's own decision.
Though obviously, UKLPGA is lobbying insurers to promote this scheme - same as it always did with the paper certificates. Takeup by the insuance companies is expected to be greater though, simply because its easy and quick to make the online check.

As knowledge spreads among the buying public, it may become harder to sell on a converted car without registration, too.

Any safety check reports done before this are not worth the paper they are written on as they will not be included on the database so will need to be redone

Not completely so; if you have a green A5-size LPGA certificate, the copies that the installers hold have been recalled and are being uploaded to the new database by UKLPG. (might take a while - my own car ain't on yet!)

A few will get missed of course ; installers gone or paperwork lost. UKLPG website tells you how to submit your own copy to them to get it sorted.

But ... you might have a "non-standard" bit of paper ; there is/was nothing to stop an installer who is not an LPGA member from issuing their own bits of paper to state that the job was done to LPGA standards. All perfectly above board, but it will be up to you to persuade your insurance company that is an acceptable substitute. It's their decision.

also beware the new inspection includes a test to check the exhaust emissions

Emissions checks were always a part of green paper certicate scheme, there's nothing new there. If the car fails emissions checks it needs fixing (it's always amazed me that the MoT doesn't test this area properly).

[SimonHobson]

Having read this I'm left wondering why I didn't know anything about it before now. Was there any sort of consultation before it was introduced. It seems grossly unfair to suddenly land people with more bills at the drop of hat, in particular as it's retrospective. My car isn't on the database and it was converted professionally with a certificate.

You have to remember the background - this is what used to be called the LPG Association which is primarily a trade body in business for one thing only, to promote itself and try to make money. OK, perhaps a bit strong since they also do do some good safety related work - but they ARE a private organisation.

For many years they have been trying to persuade the public that their "approval" is a legal requirement, and also lobbying to try and make it that way. This move is no surprise to me, and as others have suggested, it's not about safety, it's about money - or at least safety is secondary to money.

Insurance companies have for a long time had varying requirements - some won't do LPG at all, some require an LPGA approved conversion, some only require a safety certificate. I would imagine this is being offered very cheaply to insurance companies and is clearly an attempt to make it a lot easier to sign up insurers to the "LPGA or nothing" view of LPG.

[mylow]

I find this whole thing very frustrating!! This database must have been in the planning stage for some time and yet no one on this forum or anywhere else seems to have had any idea about it until now. Had I have known this was on its way 12 months ago my choice of conversion my second car would have been very different. Forgive me if I’m wrong rossko but I was told that the green LPGA certificate was only for conversions carried out by approved installers and the safety check reports for other conversions and it was these that would have to be redone

[SimonHobson]

I find this whole thing very frustrating!! This database must have been in the planning stage for some time and yet no one on this forum or anywhere else seems to have had any idea about it until now. Had I have known this was on its way 12 months ago my choice of conversion my second car would have been very different. Forgive me if I’m wrong rossko but I was told that the green LPGA certificate was only for conversions carried out by approved installers and the safety check reports for other conversions and it was these that would have to be redone

It seems that if you have a paper certificate from an LPGA member then you are OK - these should be entered on the database, but if it's been missed you can send it to them and they'll add it. In reality, for some insurers it makes no difference whatsoever apart from the admin - instead of you showing them your LPGA member provided certificate, they can look it up. If the insurer already required an LPGA certificate then the only change is the admin.

Some of us have our certificates from someone who is NOT an LPGA member. What worries me is that more and more insurers are going to be suckered into this simply because it's easy for them. I see my own insurer (NFU Mutual) is on the list - but they've accepted my certificates already and I think their PR people might have something to say about it if they were to turn around and change their mind about it now. If they did, then the saying that there is no thing as bad publicity will **not** apply !
Of course, **we** (on this forum) know that there is only a loose connection between LPGA (now UKLPG) membership and quality of work. In general I'd expect members to be of a higher standard on average, but we also know that there are some real rogues with membership, and some really well done DIY and non-member commercial conversions. If it becomes the norm for insurers to go down the easy route then I could see grounds for some complaints to consumer protection bodies - it should NOT be the situation that a consumer can only buy goods from ONE organisation that has created itself a de-facto monopoly. There could also be grounds for defamation actions (if the insurer or UKLPG claims that membership is the only way to get quality work then that is defamatory to anyone who is not a member) - though someone would have to be reasonably well off to take that route.

Sadly though I think we are now stuck with this - the time to do anything about it was when it was being put in place, in secret it would appear. Schemes like this seldom disappear however bad.

I know of a similar scheme for work access stuff (ie all those various types of platforms for working off the ground). There is a body (International Powered Access Federation) that runs a certification scheme for operators and training organisations. It's completely non-mandatory and effectively has no control placed on it, but in practice it's become mandatory because most employers now will not employ someone without their "driving licence". In much the same way that insurers will see this database as an easy way out (in particular it's an easy way of passing off any responsibility), employers see IPAF licences as an easy way out of regulatory issues (as in, if you have an accident then they don't have to account for any skill assessment as someone else has declared the operator to be competent). So now it's to the point where trainers (both the organisation and the individuals) have to be IPAF members, and workers have to have IPAF licences - and IPAF do quite nicely out of it. They do audit trainers though, and anecdotally they are better at controlling standard than UKLPG are. So far, it seems that as long as you can present them with an equipped workshop and a well done vehicle once every five years then that's all that's needed - even if customer complain to UKLPG.

[woody]

personally i think that any steps to improve quality and get rid of the cowboys should be welcomed..as long as they [UKLPG] police the installers correctly,time will tell on that .

It wont affect DIYers as if they can do the job to a good standard then they will get certified.

The qualty of installs will soon be apparent due to influx of vehicles needing certifying.I have a porche Cayenne coming in on wednesday,lets see what happens with that.

woody

[Gilbertd]

The qualty of installs will soon be apparent due to influx of vehicles needing certifying.I have a porche Cayenne coming in on wednesday,lets see what happens with that.

and at over 100 notes an inspection, it's a nice little extra earner for the trade. No need to bother doing any installs in future, just cover your labour costs inspecting someone elses work. With the number of vehicles out there that were converted 2 or 3 owners ago and no longer have any paperwork, there are plenty that are going to need inspecting.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the trade (provided they do a good job) but I don't see why I, or anyone else for that matter, should be forced to have an install inspected. Will UKLPG accept a certificate from someone who is not a member? I doubt it. What makes it worse is that there have been a number of LPGA/UKLPG registered installers that have done a less than perfect job but certificates issued by them will be accepted but an install done perfectly by a DIY'er or non-member won't be.

[SimonHobson]

and at over 100 notes an inspection, it's a nice little extra earner for the trade. No need to bother doing any installs in future, just cover your labour costs inspecting someone elses work. With the number of vehicles out there that were converted 2 or 3 owners ago and no longer have any paperwork, there are plenty that are going to need inspecting.

That's IF you can get someone to inspect it AND they are honest about what they find.

It's quite clear from some of the threads in here that many installers won't have anything to do with inspecting other people's work. There have been plenty of threads where someone has either done, or is planning, a DIY install but can't find anyone who will certify it (and that is what this means). I can accept that there are reasons for people not to want to certify work they haven't done, but that doesn't help the average man in the street.

Of course, UK LPG could make it a requirement of membership - but there are ways around that, such as quoting silly hourly rates or times so that no-one will actually buy your service; or simply fleecing the customer ...

And then one has to wonder what the results will be. Now I am absolutely not pointing fingers at any of the pro's who frequent this list, I have no doubt at all about their integrity. But I have to wonder how many people, when faced with a completely ignorant owner whose insurance company has just told them to "get it certified or else", will be tempted to make work for themselves ? Which have just done a research project on car servicing and the results were depressing : the jist is that after taking cars with known (doctored) issues for servicing, the vast majority of garages failed to spot some basic faults, the majority failed to perform all the steps required for the service, and many charges for things they didn't do (one of the tests was to fill the washer bottle up and then see how many charged for screenwash !). Things were somewhat better for those in the posh end trade scheme to which most of the main (franchised) dealers belonged and which supposedly policies it's members - but it was very far from being any guarantee of a proper service.
http://www.which.co.uk/about-which/pres ... servicing/

So that's for a service where most owners would know someone who could "have a look" and see if they are being taken for a ride. Now stick in something that most people know nothing about, and I think you'll find that the same cowboys that do dodgy conversions will be more than happy to find faults in any installation to make work for themselves. Unlike the garage trade where there are (still just about) several in any decent sized town, and reputation (especially bad) tends to spread by word of mouth - that won't be the case for approved LPG places. People will be faced with some longish trips, unexpected bills (some for work of questionable legitimacy), and little hope of questioning any work "required" since that would mean at the very least a long trip to another place for a second opinion vs just leaving the car an extra few hours for the work to be done.

In their report, Which call for more regulation, but I think it's been demonstrated many times that more regulation doesn't help once you get to a certain level. In the light aircraft area that's been shown to be the case - in some countries they've go "gold plated" their regulation that few can afford to run an aircraft and the result isn't to make flying safer !

On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily object if some basic LPG **safety** items were included in the MoT. At the moment, you only need a certificate once in the conversions lifetime - and after that it can get as ropey as the owner lets it with no further tests or inspection required. Lets face it, the basic "is there anything in danger of falling off" checks shouldn't be beyond the ability of anyone who can already do MoT tests.

[mat_fenwick]

Am I right in thinking that installers can't certify installations for makes of equipment they haven't had (manufacturer) training with? If so where does that leave people who have obsolete kits? That's what I was told with a DIY installation a few years back, but they could give me a COP 11 tick list to supply insurance companies with.

Certainly in my case more work was found to be required, some of it dubious quality and several new parts that were subsequently found not to be required.

In our case we have now bought a previously converted vehicle, with no evidence of any certificate. However, it is down on the V5 as being dual fuel, so as I understand it we simply need to send a copy of the V5 off to UKLPG to be added to the register.

[rossko]

Installers proposing to install or inspect systems of "Brand X" need to convince UKLPG they are competent to do so ; usually that's done with evidence of training but obviously there are exceptions, to cover the oddballs and obsoletes. It remains up to the installer if they want to even consider it though.

However, it is down on the V5 as being dual fuel, so as I understand it we simply need to send a copy of the V5 off to UKLPG to be added to the register.

I don't know where you got that idea, see
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/vehicle_register.php

Bear in mind so-called "factory fitted" LPG cars registered as dual-fuel models from new won't appear on the register at all ; they have not been converted, not been modified so far as insurers or UKLPG are concerned ; they're type-approved before sale.
Perhaps that's what you are thinking of, but just having a V5 saying 'dual fuel' will not get it on the register.