Astra 1.6 16v wont switch over to LPG

[Tornado1969]

the sensor i picked up off the guy on ebay wouldnt work.

the water hoses on the car.
from engine to vapouriser
vapouriser to heater matrix
are a much bigger diameter pipe. to the size that goes each side of that sensor.

plus the wiring plugs are different..

il check the wires to the ecu plug, next time im working on it.

i do have a laptop. but i dont have the lead or software.


cheers for Powertorque details , il give them a ring about the sensor.

the system i have is the koltec necam gsi system.

[Tornado1969]

right latest update,

the ignition light has always been on when the car is running.
so that points to a knackered alternator.
ive taken it off and its a 100amp bosch.
ive taken the alternator off the other 1.6 donor astra i have.
buts thats only a 70amp bosch.

but for now ive put it on the lpg car and now it runs without ignition light on.
so the battery is getting a charge now.
but still doesnt switch to lpg.

so ive ordered a op com to connect to the car and see what fault codes there is.
as i did the pedal test and it has quite a few codes. but i wasnt 100% sure i got them right.

so soon as it arrives il test it and list the codes.


PS. would the koltec necam lpg parts from a 1999 Vauxhall Astramax van 1.6L 8v engine
( Vaporiser, stoplock solenoid, LPG distributor, emulator, ECU, MAP sensor, changeover switch)

work on mine..... mines a 52plate. the vaporiser looks the same. so does the map sensor and switch. but the distributor looks bigger...

cheers.

[pjpj]

Hi,

It may be that on some of the Vauxhalls, the ground is taken from the alternator, or somewhere nearby, whether it is for the whole LPG system or just the injectors, I don't know. Just a heads up for you there. I have recently seen a number of reports of bad ground connections causing all sorts of faults. Also, alot of stuck solenoid valves. It's an age thing.

I'm surprised you're still working on this.

Can you post up some pictures for me from your car.

a. The LPG distributor.
b. The four LPG injectors.
c. The fuse box, cover off, where the grey diagnostics wire is.

Whether that ECU will work on your car is debatable. Yours is a 16V (Totally different model engine) so is unlikely to work and I believe the ECU's cannot be reprogrammed with the Monio software. Whether you would be able to swap the EEPROM, maybe. I suppose it would depend upon the ECU model and to be honest, if anything's going to be faulty on the ECU, it's the EEPROM.

Let me see the pics before you buy that kit. I just need to confirm something.

Regards

PJPJ

[Tornado1969]

hi there pjpj, cheers for the reply.

there are two wires going to the alternator.
thickish one and a thin one.

cheers for the heads up.
both soleniods are opening with 12v put to them.

yer i couldnt do much on it as it was in my mates garage and i couldnt work on it in there.
so i had to clear my garage out and tidy it up. put up cupboards etc.
and make space to get the car in there.

i have borrowed a coolant temp sensor to put in the vapouriser, but thought it was best to fix the ignition light issue as the battery wasnt getting charged up and it also could affect the lpg.
as the battery was going flat.

now thats done, once i get the op com i can find out all the codes 100%

im sure one of the codes was the map sensor. but cant find the bit of paper i wrote the codes on.


il try and get pics of A and B but they aint easy to get too.
fuse box is no problem...

i know my ecu is working as it was tested by millbrook.
and im not too bothered about that ecu, more the vapouriser,coolant sensor,switch,map senor etc...
parts that wouldnt work on my car i could always sell on.

cheers

[pjpj]

Just looking at your first images again, it looks like the vacuum pipe from the vaporiser to the T-Piece is barely connected. The other side of this T goes to the MAP sensor.

If you want to check all your vacuum lines and connections. The parts that I have found are prone to perishing are the rubber ends on the stiff hose that runs from the carbon canister on the left of the bay to the throttle body via the non-return valve I think it is.

Anyway, I shall await your response.

Regards

PJPJ

[Tornado1969]

hi pj.

im sure since then the pipe has been pushed on fully.
but i will check that tomorrow.

i got the OP COM today

and hooked it up.....

here are the codes listed.

P0500 - Front Left Wheel Speed Sensor Missing Signal (00) - Not present
P0105 - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor Voltage Low (02) - Not present
P1540 - Air Conditioning Pressure Signal Invalid (04) - Not present
P1540 - Air Conditioning Pressure Signal High Input (01) - Not present
P0560 - Battery Voltage Low (02) - Not present
P0460 - Tank Level Sensor Circuit High Input (01) - Not present

here are pics of the injector, splitter, and fuse box...

gsi injector.jpg (46.39 KiB) Viewed 4996 times

lpg regulator.jpg (57.61 KiB) Viewed 4996 times

lpg fusebox.jpg (48.39 KiB) Viewed 4969 times

cheers.......

[Tornado1969]

ohh and a pic of the parts i was looking at...

lpg parts.jpg (35.18 KiB) Viewed 4996 times

mainly for the vapouriser/coolant sensor, map sensor

cheers....

[pjpj]

As I thought, those parts are from an older EGI system.

The only thing you can use is the vaporiser and attached sensor, although it could be more than a couple of years older, the MAP is probably the same and the switch.

I'll get back to you on the other things.

Is that image of the fuse box your box or identical to your box. Although I don't think this really matters right now.

Regards

PJPJ

[Tornado1969]

hi pj, yer i know they are from an older model.
but if they are working and depends what they go for. it might be worth it.

yes thats the fuse box from the lpg astra.

i labeled it as i also have a normal 1.6 astra i got for spares.
to fix up the lpg astra and a 3dr 2.2sri

so didnt want to get them mixed up..

[pjpj]

I assume you have cleared the fault codes now.

We don't know how old those codes are.

Can you run the car up to temperature and see if you get any new codes.

Info. I have got about the MAP sensor is~


The voltage on the sensor is 5 volts. I do not know which wire is what.

1 / No Vacuum: 4.7 to 4.9 volts.
2 / Stationary with 500-600 mbar: 1.2 to 1.8 volts.

The battery fault you know about, the fuel level fault I don't think effects the LPG running. The fuel level indicator is switched between the two tank senders (impedance matched) by a relay.

The others have no effect.

I would have hoped for a MAP fault code 33 or 34 on the LPG system.

Those injectors look a pain to get to. Track the wiring from each one and check for damage and check they are all connected through. The tails are about a foot long I think.

You've got the standard GSI distributor there which may or may not have a filter built in.

You must have posted that fuse box image in the old forum gallery.

You look to have the correct relays there but the actual location of the relays are possibly wrong. Two are changeover relays (2 way) and two are switching (1 way) I believe, so, if two of those have been mixed up... However it seems the signal to switch may not be getting this far.

There was also someone on here that found the LPG harness connections had been changed around under that fuse box. Basically the LPG harness looped on itself but the car ran fine on petrol. It wasn't too long ago so you'll find it easy enough if you look through my old posts or do a search.

I would start with finding out about that MAP signal.

That spare kit~ It all looks very well used and to be honest you may find the vaporiser will require a rebuild. Especially if it's been sat around not working for some time. So you may as well re-build your own if needed.

Regards

PJPJ

[Tornado1969]

hi pj,

yes i cleared the codes after i saved them to file..
indeed they could be years old....

ok i ran the car upto temperature until the cooling fan came on.
i checked for fault codes and none listed.
maybe they wasnt cleared when the faults occured and parts where changed ?

i guess i need to do the fault test on the lpg system ?
see if any codes are stored on its ecu.


the injectors do look like a pain to get to.

the injector connections are under the vapouriser and all look ok.

the gsi distributor looks original from the hose clips used.

i think il have to disconnect it from the vapouriser and pull it down

and check see if it has filter ?
it proberly would need replacing ? if its the original one fitted


yes i did post the fuse box image in my forum gallery.
along with the fuse boxes from the other two astras.

but cant see how to get to that now, down to the new forum i guess.

fuseboxes.jpg (51.19 KiB) Viewed 4968 times

both those green replays are made by Hella ? not GM

i think somethings wrong there.

the first relay (marked 1 in the pic) is a 5pin replay.
yet the block it plugs into only has 4 connecting pins

wires are..

red/black
thick yellow
yellow/black
thin yellow

hella 12v, 5 pin relay

4RD
003 520 - 25
pins 30, 85, 86+, 87, 87a
--------
the second relay is the same relay as the first one.
but this block has 5 connecting pins

wires are.....

thick yellow
blue
blue/white
blue/yellow
blue/black

relay plugs.jpg (58.76 KiB) Viewed 4968 times

the two purple relays are both 4 pin
and wiring to both blocks are for 4 pin

GM
90 494 959
12v 30amp relay

relays.jpg (27.57 KiB) Viewed 4968 times

il do a search and see if i can find the thread about the lpg harness

cheers

[pjpj]

Relay 1 will be the main LPG relay. I believe these are the connections.

Coil
Pin 86 Thin Yellow
Pin 85 Y/Blk

Switch
Pin 30 Rd/Blk
Pin 87 Thick Yellow

It's just a one way switch that is required here.


Relay 2 will be the Petrol/ LPG injector switchover relay. I believe these are the connections.

Coil
Pin 86 Y
Pin 85 Blu/ Blk

Switch
Pin 30 Blu/ Wh
Pin 87 Blu/ Y
Pin 87a Blu

There is no real need to check the pin connection wiring. It will be correct. Just make absolutely sure one of those other 4 pin bases isn't a five.

The only other relay that is a 5 pin is the fuel sender changeover but, like I say, this may be in the boot.


Found that thread.

http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... tra#p50593

[pjpj]

By the way, you should have 12V direct from one of those fuses on the RD/ Blk of relay 1.

Y and Y/Blk is the 12V and ground feed, not sure which is which, from the LPG ECU to Change over to LPG.

Once this relay energises, the rest of the system energises.

[Tornado1969]

hi pj, thanks for all your help its much appreciated.

il check on that tomorrow.

i think it will be best to check the pin connections, just to make sure they are right.

so should these two green relays be GM or does it not matter...

and relay one should be a 4 pin relay ?...

so its a good chance the 5pin one in there is the main problem...

the other two purple relays are both 4 pin, 2 of the pins are wider then standard.
the blocks are both purple colour and wired for 4 pin.

il take a look at the two green relays in the other astra tomorrow, see what they are.

yes the fuel sender changeover relay is in the boot on the rear of the lpg tank.

tank relay.jpg (28.86 KiB) Viewed 4962 times

and looking at the picture and 1301 on the side of it.
i think thats the same relay as the two in the front fusebox.

cheers for finding the thread, il take a read of it...

ok il do some testing tomorrow and see what i find.

cheers

[pjpj]

Sorry, I didn't make it clear.

A 5-pin relay will work fine in a 4 pin base. (So long as it fits of course)

The reason a five pin will have been used is for simple logistics. Use the same product for all the relays (LPG) and you can't go wrong.

I can see from the relay bases, they look correct.

All the relays look correct but you are best testing the operation of the two green relays and I assume you know what I'm getting at with my last post and the 12V etc.

[Gilbertd]

A 5-pin relay will work fine in a 4 pin base. (So long as it fits of course)
I can see from the relay bases, they look correct.

Usually...
I have come across 4 pin relays that will fit the standard holder but have the pins arranged differently so don't work. They were on something French if I remember correctly, but that would only happen if someone had changed the relays for some reason which doesn't look likely here.

[Tornado1969]

hi,
i see now from searching a diagram that a 4 or 5 pin would work.
because the 5th centre pin is 87a the second circuit.

85,86 = coil
30,87 circuit one
30,87a circuit two

il check the relays and wiring etc later today.

cheers.

[Tornado1969]

right, ive check both green relays in the fusebox and the one
in the rear by the tank.

with no power to the relay, pins 30 and 87A has a circuit.

when power is applied, pins 30 and 87 become the circuit.

all 3 relays work fine.


the red/black wire going to the green relay on pin 30, has 12v there.
and it supplied by the red fuse next to the relay.

both red fuses and blue fuse are all fine.


now i remember a while back i was tracing the wiring at the rear going forward...

i traced two wires going forward.

yellow and a brown..

the brown stopped at the drivers footwell and goes to earth.

the yellow went up into the dash.

well today i found a piece of wiring come out of the bulkhead
and go across the engine bay over to the relay box..
it has 4 wires in it..

one is yellow.. this yellow wire goes to pin 87 on relay 1
when you put 12v to that yellow wire.
the solenoid on the vapouriser and tank click. and the relay at the rear.

so i looked at the coil side of it. pins 85 and 86.

pin 86, thin yellow has 3v on it with ignition on. nothing with ignition off.

pin 85 has no power with ignition on or off and no resistance to say its an earth.


i was given the schema diagram for the gsi system from millbrooke.
it shows 5 relays. 3 are 4pin and 2 are 5pin.
rest its hard to work out whats what.as there is no reference to what things are.

also got the diagram for the koltec computer...

[Gilbertd]

If you find 3V (or anything less than 12V) on a wire it usually means there is a bad connection somewhere in that feed. A high resistance joint somewhere will usually give a voltage of some sort when there is no load applied but as soon as you try to draw current, the voltage will drop very low. If you are fairly sure that wire should have 12V on it, try running a jumper wire direct from the battery or the cigarette lighter socket to bypass the high resistance connection.

[Tornado1969]

thats one way of doing it Gilbertd

but thinking about it.
there wouldnt be an ignition 12v supply to it or a switch.
as that would allow the tank relay and both lpg solenoids to be on constantly
or switched on when you want. even before the cars temp is up.

so either the ecu supplys the 12v to the coil side of that relay and its permanently earthed.
or it has a constant 12v supply and the ecu earths it when the car is upto temperature.
and the switch is switched to lpg.

so i guess that wire must goes to the ecu....

but i didnt find out what wire is the 12v and what one is earth.

might have to pull the lpg wiring loom out and untaped it and check everything.