Ethanol

LPG is not the only environmentally friendly fuel. This area is for discussing the alternatives.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Toolless
New member
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: Up my own ass

Ethanol

#1 Post by Toolless » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:58 am

Ethanol Methanol Bio Ethanol or just basically pure Alcohol

Looked into it a bit and I can brew it from barely
By turning the starch into sugar and sugar into alcohol with yeast
It is grow a little round hear for mealing cattle and can be bought from a farmer for 80 quid a tonne
Looked at a chart I was given and it worked out about 30p liter to make it

Someone from europe is selling injector conversion kits for this for $110


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :MESELX:IT


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :MESELX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :MESELX:IT

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 7970
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Ethanol

#2 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:46 am

There's a good money making scam. In Europe normal unleaded is being replaced with E85, a lot of the motorway services only sell E85 now. You put it in your tank and run on it, there's no discernable difference between running on normal unleaded or E85. The eBay ad for the bodge box says that
"fuel injection system will be automatically adjusted for current fuel (gasoline, E85 or any mixture) by lambda sensor."
which is exactly what the fuel injection system does anyway.

$110 for a plastic box with some lights on it, a bit of cable and a few plugs, sounds a pretty good mark-up to me....
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Toolless
New member
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: Up my own ass

Re: Ethanol

#3 Post by Toolless » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:11 am

Gilbertd wrote: there's no discernable difference between running on normal unleaded or E85.
Well they have different octain levals different thicknesses and different energy levals
You cant just run on E85 alone your engine would just couth and splutter

Gilbertd wrote: "fuel injection system will be automatically adjusted for current fuel (gasoline, E85 or any mixture) by lambda sensor."
which is exactly what the fuel injection system does anyway.
What dose adjust by lambda sensor; the cars injector or the E85 injector?

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 7970
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Ethanol

#4 Post by Gilbertd » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:47 am

Toolless wrote:You cant just run on E85 alone your engine would just couth and splutter
No it doesn't. Like I said, you can no longer buy unleaded at most French motorway services, your choices are diesel, LPG or E85. I've driven a '98 4.0 litre V6 Ford Explorer and a 2002 Honda S2000 down to the south of France in the last few weeks and both have been filled with E85 as they won't run on either of the other two. In fact, I last put 'petrol' in the tank of the LSE in France, so that has E85 in there too. E85 is 85% Ethanol with the other 15% being made up of petrol and additives, no doubt the additives are the clever bit.
Toolless wrote:What dose adjust by lambda sensor; the cars injector or the E85 injector?
There is no E85 injector, it uses E85 instead of petrol using the same injectors and the same ECU. There is no conversion involved to run on E85, you just put in in your tank and use it which is why I say the bodge box on eBay is a con. All you need do to run on E85 is fill up with it. A lambda sensor checks the amount of oxygen in the exhaust so can tell if the engine is running weak or rich. This signal then tells the ECU to adjust the mixture to keep it correct. It does this no matter what fuel you are running on, petrol, LPG, E85 or canned farts.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Toolless
New member
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: Up my own ass

Re: Ethanol

#5 Post by Toolless » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:11 am

I have been told the opposite that you cant just run on E85 you must have a good quality of petrol in your tank otherwise it wont run
You are supposed to have petrol in your tank and quietly adding E85 or just pure ethanol until you reach problems
In other words a petrol engine was not designed or capable on running on ethanol
Gilbertd wrote: It does this no matter what fuel you are running on, petrol, LPG, E85 or canned farts.
If thats the case then why am I bothering with an LPG injector?

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 7970
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Ethanol

#6 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:04 am

Toolless wrote:I have been told the opposite that you cant just run on E85 you must have a good quality of petrol in your tank otherwise it wont run
You are supposed to have petrol in your tank and quietly adding E85 or just pure ethanol until you reach problems
In other words a petrol engine was not designed or capable on running on ethanol
Maybe not on pure ethanol, but E85 is a blend of 85% Ethanol and petrol. That is obviously enough because both cars ran perfectly on it. As I did just over 800 miles, both of them used at least 4 tankfulls so there was none of the original petrol left in there. In fact, the Explorer did the run back as well so did over 1600 miles, or 8 tankfulls.
Toolless wrote:
Gilbertd wrote: It does this no matter what fuel you are running on, petrol, LPG, E85 or canned farts.
If thats the case then why am I bothering with an LPG injector?
Because E85 is a liquid which goes in your normal fuel tank and uses your normal petrol injection system. LPG is a liquified gas that needs to be kept under pressure for it to remain liquid. So you couldn't just put it in your normal petrol tank or use the existing petrol fuel feed system as it is designed for a completely different type of fuel. In that quote I was referring to the lambda sensor, that just looks at the oxygen content in the exhaust and detects whether it is running rich or weak, not how the fuel gets there or what type of fuel has been used.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

SimonHobson
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: Cumbria
Contact:

Re: Ethanol

#7 Post by SimonHobson » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:01 pm

With very little in the way of software updates, any modern petrol engine could be made fully flex-fuel and able to operate on petrol, ethanol, methanol, or any blend thereof. Ethanol doesn't really make sense - making fuel from grown crops when many in the world are starving and forests are being destroyed to make more agricultural land. On the other hand, Methanol can be made from water, atmospheric CO2, and sunlight.

The big advantage of both ethanol and methanol over others such as LPG and worse, hydrogen, is that they can be blended with petrol, stored, distributed, and dispensed with the same equipment as petrol. Both are considerably safer than petrol - burning with a significantly cooler flame in the event of a spillage (so less damage/injuries from radiated heat). And of course, if you aspirate petrol or diesel then there is no treatment other than to give you oxygen to breath and hope you survive while your lungs recover (the oil forms a film that blocks gas exchange). That doesn't happen with ethanol or methanol. If ingested, petrol and diesel are both highly toxic, while ethanol and methanol can be treated - I believe the treatment for methanol is a large dose of ethanol which is absorbed in preference, ethanol poisoning already has well known treatments.

Incidentally, there are some interesting snippets in this Wikipedia article including the fact that E85 is electrically conductive - not so good for submerged fuel pumps.
Land Rover 110 V8 LPG
Land Rover 90 petrol (no longer diseasel :D), still awaiting V8 & LPG
http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk

CougarV6
Junior Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:59 pm
Location: Huntingdon, Cambs

Re: Ethanol

#8 Post by CougarV6 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:43 am

V6 Cougar, ST200 UIM, ST220 TB, Blueflame Dual Exit, BK121 18", Kaminari Carbon Bonnet, BRC Sequent 56 WIP ;-) UKCougar.com

Super Dragpack
New member
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Ethanol

#9 Post by Super Dragpack » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:49 am

As mentioend, although France and other countries prove that any Petrol powered car can run on E85, you need to think about why the manufactuers make so many changes to their "approved" Flex-Fuel vehicles and their motives behind such changes.

1/ Ethenol is conductive (due to a water content I heard) and is corrosive. Therefore the fuel delivery system ideally requires the removal of adversly affected materials - including ali and rubber. It is also "wise" to ensure you have no risk of conductivity in the fuel pump and gauge sender. I know of no reported issues about ignition/fire/explosion from fuel pumps yet, but the potential is there.

I have heard of severe problems from E85 being used on older vehicles whereby it eats away at the aging fuel lines and causes countless fuel blockage problems. This is even at the 10% level we currently have in our Petrol.

2/ The acidic level of Ethenol is different and flex-fuel engines commonly use a different type of engine oil to combate this problem.

A point worth noting is that an engine that can run on both Petrol and Ethenol is a compromise at best and this is the reason why MPG figures drop noticably. An engine designed to run purely on Ethenol, has an increased compression ratio to take advantage of the extra Octane and therefore produces more power per quantity, and therefore has no economy reduction - whilst also offering increased performance. In fact, these engines would not be able to run correctly/safely on Petrol. Ethenol also offers a cooling affect, so this too can be harnessed for increased performance.

This exact principle applies to LPG due to its increased Octane (despite lower energy content). If you were to design an engine to purely run on LPG, you would safely increase the compression ratio to 12.5:1 (some suggest 15:1), adjust timing to suit the LPG (more timing but less max advance) and realize increased performance and economy.

ANY engine that is designed to run on Petrol but also accepts alternatives is a compromise and will therefore have drawbacks.

I am currently collecting data for one of my projects which will be a LPG only engine. I choose LPG over Methenol and other fuels due to its availability and price - nothing suggests that these other fuels will ever offer a price saving unless you brew it yourself. Its worth noting that brewing such fuels in any quantity is still consider illegal.

User avatar
john_d
Site Admin
Posts: 1555
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:12 pm
Location: Cardenden, Fife

Re: Ethanol

#10 Post by john_d » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:31 pm

Jesus almost pooped myself, saw the thread author was Tooless and thought he had returned! :shock:
Subaru Impreza WRX

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 7970
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Ethanol

#11 Post by Gilbertd » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:35 pm

No but it's worthy of another read. I wonder if he's blown himself up yet?
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Super Dragpack
New member
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Ethanol

#12 Post by Super Dragpack » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Gilbertd wrote:No but it's worthy of another read. I wonder if he's blown himself up yet?
I wasn't around then (I was born obviously, just not blessing you all with my presence on here :roll: ) but I found that comment made me chuckle.

roflmao

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 7970
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Ethanol

#13 Post by Gilbertd » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:17 pm

When you have an hour or two to spare, have a read of the thread that caused him to become infamous http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8148
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Post Reply