Natural gas verses propane

[Gilbertd]

It won't. If you contact them they'll tell you how much it costs to rent the tank and that will vary depending on where it has got to be installed, but they won't tell you how much the gas will cost. That goes up and down in price just the same as it does at the filling station, it also varies from one depot to the next.

[Toolless]

do you have a ball park figure of what it will cost at the moment?

[SimonHobson]

But I did try it and it did not work,
Thant is why I asked the question about it on hear
As I thought someone would tell me what i did wrong
OK about the bucket of water thing
could I some how sifan it somehow

First off - a butane bottle is NOT, I repeat NOT rated for the pressure required for propane. At any given temperature, propane has a significantly higher pressure and the cylinders will be designed accordingly. True, it will "most likely" be OK in our moderate climate, but you are eating heavily into the safety margin.

To get the gas to transfer between tanks you can do one of three things.
1) Use a pump. I've done this using my hand pump to transfer gas from one cylinder to another - in this case, from one automotive LPG tank to another one so we could change a multivalve.
2) Elevate the full tank and see if it will syphon. This may or may not work for LPG - the system is so finely balanced that the upper part of the syphon will have vapour in it and the syphon probably won't work. Also, depending on the valves fitted, there may well be a non return valve in the outlet and that would be enough to stop the syphon working. Wrapping the pipe with a cold damp cloth might help.
3) Cool the empty cylinder. Pressure is determined by temperature in a two-phase system like this - if you cool a cylinder, the pressure will drop as gas condenses and the system re-balances itself. So if you cool one cylinder, the pressure will drop and gas will flow from the other one (hopefully as liquid if you keep the full tank the right way round). I've done this in the past to recover refrigerant from some redundant air conditioning equipment, it worked quite effectively but melted the ice very quickly.
Before you even think about it, yes the equivalent of cooling one is heating the other - but really, just take this advice for longer life and don't even think of heating a gas tank.
No really, don't even think about it.

Yes, I really mean that, don't even think about it.

Yes I know others have made their minds up that you must be a troll because no-one could be as dim as you make out. They haven't met some of the people I have, or heard of some of the things they've done - not all of them are alive today, that should give you some clues.


As for using natural gas, as others have said, yes it can be done - but NOT with equipment designed for LPG. CNG equipment is very different from LPG equipment.

[Toolless]

Yes I know others have made their minds up that you must be a troll because no-one could be as dim as you make out. They haven't met some of the people I have, or heard of some of the things they've done - not all of them are alive today, that should give you some clues.

People have accused me of being a troll on other forums before
Like the very first time i brewed beer
I was going to go in both feet first and forget the beer brewing kits and go all grain tractional and make 120 pints with 3 different recipe
Yes I did manage it, and yes it was difficult for a novice
But no one would belive that all this could be done by a beginner
Being new to something your bound to be ignorant to the facts and what might seem a silly question to the experienced was no so silly to the novice
But of coerce as usually they expected the usually first timer to come alone ask a few questions find out its to much hard work to continue studying the subject and stop! have a little dream about it for the rest of the day then forget all about it
new bee never to be seen again
Unlike myself who persisted
I don't know maybe some of the more experience are jjealous of the fact I'm going to pick it all up quicker then them, i don't know
But one thing i do know is this is a very similar situation to that of brewing beer

So how much dose it cost for heating propane in bulk?

[Mike (Walsall)]

I know that I am repeating myself ...

I would just like to comment how posters on this forum spend a lot of time / patience in answering queries ....!!!

[SAD199]

Here's a good site to find more information: http://www.darwinawards.com/

Best of luck.

[Gilbertd]

People have accused me of being a troll on other forums before

If you go into everything in the same way you've gone into this, I'm not surprised.

Being new to something your bound to be ignorant to the facts and what might seem a silly question to the experienced was no so silly to the novice I don't know maybe some of the more experience are jjealous of the fact I'm going to pick it all up quicker then them

I somehow doubt that, you'd have got it by now if that was the case. What appears to be the problem is that you seem to have no grasp of either basic physics or how an LPG system actually works. Rather than blundering into it, why not spend some time researching it so you at least have a basic knowledge first, then come along and ask for the finer details?

So how much dose it cost for heating propane in bulk?

Only a few pence a litre cheaper than you'd pay at a filling station. But as already pointed out, by the time you've added the duty on, the savings are negligable. If you live in a rural area where there isn't mains gas, why don't you go for oil fired central heating and buy a diesel? A diesel engine will run on heating oil (as diesel is the same stuff but with lubricant added) and HMRC will be just as interested in speaking to you as they would if you are running a car on bulk propane.....

[SimonHobson]

People have accused me of being a troll on other forums before
Like the very first time i brewed beer
I was going to go in both feet first and forget the beer brewing kits and go all grain tractional and make 120 pints with 3 different recipe
Yes I did manage it, and yes it was difficult for a novice
But no one would belive that all this could be done by a beginner
Being new to something your bound to be ignorant to the facts and what might seem a silly question to the experienced was no so silly to the novice

It's not quite that simple. Firstly, no one has actually suggested (in the case of your LPG conversion) that it's not possible - but we have suggested that given your level of knowledge it might be a lot easier, and a better learning experience to do your first one from a complete kit. More likely to work, less likely to have significant problems, and given the difference in hazards from brewing beer*, less likely to cause damage or injury to anyone or anything. We'd all like there to be "one more of us" with a successful LPG conversion - the last thing anyone wants is another failure or "bad 'un". Even with my limited DIY dabbling, I've seen enough to understand why most of the Code of Practice says what it does !

* I heard an amusing tale from Brian Sinclair, the real life character who formed the model for Tristan Farnon in the Vet Books by James Herriot. He visited a farm and in the kitchen found an alcove blocked up by bales, and chalk marks on the wall. This was before home brew kits and reliable recipes, and this batch had gone wrong. They'd blocked the alcove and weren't removing the bales until there was a chalk mark on the wall for every bottle that went in there. Each chalk mark represented a bang as a bottle exploded

But of coerce as usually they expected the usually first timer to come alone ask a few questions find out its to much hard work to continue studying the subject and stop! have a little dream about it for the rest of the day then forget all about it
new bee never to be seen again
Unlike myself who persisted
I don't know maybe some of the more experience are jjealous of the fact I'm going to pick it all up quicker then them, i don't know

Trouble is, you don't seem to be picking it up very fast at all. You've asked some questions several times, and with others you appear to have failed to grasp what you've been told altogether - and you've completely failed to take suggestions on where to find some of the answers without people having to repeat it for you. I get the feeling that you really are underestimating the gulf between what you think you've learned and what you need to be able to do a DIY job successfully and safely, from scratch, using second hand parts.

You don't help yourself either by, it appears, jumping into other things at the same time - so you aren't just trying to learn how to do an LPG conversion, but sell second hand tanks, and learn about CNG at the same time. I would advise you to stick to one thing at a time, get that straight in your mind, and only when you've sorted that out move onto other things. I'm not trying to talk you out of anything, just suggesting how I believe you are more likely to succeed.

[Toolless]

Very funny SAD199 and also very sad

I know that I am repeating myself ...

I would just like to comment how posters on this forum spend a lot of time / patience in answering queries ....!!!

Nope we must be on different planets so I wont argue with you sir

What appears to be the problem is that you seem to have no grasp of either basic physics or how an LPG system actually works. Rather than blundering into it, why not spend some time researching it so you at least have a basic knowledge first, then come along and ask for the finer details?

Thats what I'm doing; my research
It may all seem nitty gritty to you sir but to me its not
If you knew exactly what I had planed then you may understand what and why I'm asking

Now this is what starts it all off
Me being banned from public forums
Me myself Retaliating from out outrageous attacks based on title tatle with no logic
Hypocritical Members who accuse me of one thing but started the whole thing them self
But I shall not go down this road on this occasion I will be polite and persistent for my quest of knowledge
So sorry to troll you all but back to business with my project which is that a big project

Only a few pence a litre cheaper than you'd pay at a filling station.

So are you saying there is hardly any difference in price
So what for heating gas is going to be some were between 60p-65p
Well there's nowt in it man
only reason why I asked the question is coz i read this page
http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk/articles/files ... ometh.html

why don't you go for oil fired central heating and buy a diesel? A diesel engine will run on heating oil (as diesel is the same stuff but with lubricant added) and HMRC will be just as interested in speaking to you as they would if you are running a car on bulk propane.....

I bet you your a payed professorial in this field as you seem to have a fountain of knowledge that no one ells has
At this moment in time I have no plans on changing the car but one day maybe
But this is not something to be ignored
Running a diesel engine on heating oil if its all the same stuff how much dose heating oil cost
As You did not really answer my other question about how much bulk propane cost

Now you start on a different thread asking about a different alternative fuel and seemingly use that to demonstrate how stupid you would like us to think you actually are. I think, as Rick does, that nobody could be that stupid and have managed to make it through puberty.

Actually I was thinking about running a petrol engine on alcohol before i thought about the gas thing
Before I passed puberty that is
I remember watching the movie back to the future 3
and they got a bottle of whisky and filled the time car up with it
Sorry had a bit to much home brew tonight
But it dose burn and is flammable like petrol and I can brew it for peanuts
So what would happen if i put 100% purified alcohol in my fuel tank?

[Gilbertd]

Thats what I'm doing; my research

No you're not, you're asking random questions as you think of them. Why not spend half an hour reading http://autogashelp.co.uk/default.aspx or http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk/ and then ask questions on anything that isn't clear.

It may all seem nitty gritty to you sir but to me its not
If you knew exactly what I had planed then you may understand what and why I'm asking

I hate to imagine what you may have planned....

Now this is what starts it all off
Me being banned from public forums

and you're surprised?

So are you saying there is hardly any difference in price
So what for heating gas is going to be some were between 60p-65p
Well there's nowt in it man
only reason why I asked the question is coz i read this page
http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk/articles/files ... ometh.html

No idea, all I know is that people have been complaining that the price of bulk gas has gone up to the point where it is almost as expensive as buying road fuel duty paid LPG from a filling station.

I bet you your a payed professorial in this field as you seem to have a fountain of knowledge that no one ells has. Running a diesel engine on heating oil if its all the same stuff how much dose heating oil cost
As You did not really answer my other question about how much bulk propane cost

I didn't answer the question on how much bulk gas costs because I don't know. Why not do some research and phone your local Flogas or Calor depot and ask them? The last time I was made aware of the price, heating oil was 19p a litre when diesel was about 90p a litre but I understand it's gone up a bit since then. And yes, the day job is as a Techical Investigation Officer for a Government department regularly working alongside HMRC.

Actually I was thinking about running a petrol engine on alcohol before i thought about the gas thing
Before I passed puberty that is
I remember watching the movie back to the future 3
and they got a bottle of whisky and filled the time car up with it
Sorry had a bit to much home brew tonight
But it dose burn and is flammable like petrol and I can brew it for peanuts
So what would happen if i put 100% purified alcohol in my fuel tank?

It would run, not very well unless you tuned it to suit the fuel, but it would run. Dragsters and Indy cars run on Methanol which is a form of Methyl Alcohol (wood alcohol). Petrol companies are starting to sell a blend of petrol and Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol) as it reduces the amount of crude oil needed to produce it. But again, if you brew your own fuel and use it for road use, you have to pay road fuel duty on it.

[SimonHobson]

So are you saying there is hardly any difference in price
So what for heating gas is going to be some were between 60p-65p
Well there's nowt in it man
only reason why I asked the question is coz i read this page
http://www.diy-lpg.co.uk/articles/files ... ometh.html

Well I wrote that (yes, that's my site) over 8 years ago - things have changed a bit since then. The cost of the raw material has gone up quite a lot, the tax only a little, but the retail price has not gone up nearly as much. From what I've read, I think I get it reasonably low cost round here where we have just enough competition to keep the price in check - Morrisons opening really made a change, especially since they decided to "buy market share" and had a price war with the plant hire place up the road.

Anyway, the result is that I've not filled from red cylinders for several years as it just doesn't save anything.

I don't know what the bulk price is at the moment, I've tried ringing round a couple of times and people seem unable or unwilling to give a price. You have to really wonder at what's going on in someones head when you ask a simple question like "I use 300l a month as road fuel, how much to supply (VAT and Duty paid) that into my own tank when your tanker is up this way ?". Only once did I actually drag an answer out of the voice on the other end f the phone, and it was higher than the forecourt price half a mile away - I'm fairly certain he made up a price and inflated it deliberately.

[Mike (Walsall)]

Some one mentioned to ... Toolless ... maybe get a diesel ...

You can run an 'old' diesel on veggie oil ... buy it from Tesco ..Asda .. Bookers etc: (SVO) ...

Or get it from the local chippy ... take aways etc: and filter your own for free (WVO) ...

Legally you can use up to 2500 litres a year ...

[rossko]

It's no good posting that, you didn't tell him how much it costs!!

[Toolless]

Some one mentioned to ... Toolless ... maybe get a diesel ...

You can run an 'old' diesel on veggie oil ... buy it from Tesco ..Asda .. Bookers etc: (SVO) ...

Or get it from the local chippy ... take aways etc: and filter your own for free (WVO) ...

Legally you can use up to 2500 litres a year ...

I was told this a long time ago when i had my transit
but i was not very mechanically minded then
But who ever said it would not run very well
Is there any fine tuning one could do to get the performance needed

[It would run, not very well unless you tuned it to suit the fuel,

What tuning would I have to do for this to work?

[Gilbertd]

I was told this a long time ago when i had my transit
but i was not very mechanically minded then

So has anything changed in the meantime?

But who ever said it would not run very well
Is there any fine tuning one could do to get the performance needed

Yes, but now you are far more mechanically minded, you won't need us to tell you. Anyway, this is an LPG forum, not a diesel one.

What tuning would I have to do for this to work?

The same as any other fuel change, altered mixture, altered ignition timing. The amount of alteration will depend on the original state of tune of the engine and the calorific value and equivalent octane rating of the fuel. But they get well over 3000 bhp out of a dragster engine running on methanol (admittedly not for more than about 6 seconds.....).

[Toolless]

So has anything changed in the meantime?

Yes I have had namoprobic transistors fitted to my brain by my doctor
When I have finished this project my next project is to build a hydraulic robot
And when its finished.......probably when I'm 70 years old that is; I'm going to have my brain put in it so i can live forever

The same as any other fuel change, altered mixture, altered ignition timing. The amount of alteration will depend on the original state of tune of the engine and the calorific value and equivalent octane rating of the fuel. But they get well over 3000 bhp out of a dragster engine running on methanol (admittedly not for more than about 6 seconds.....).

If the Indians are doing it
Can you just buy a conversion like that of an lpg

Yes, but now you are far more mechanically minded, you won't need us to tell you. Anyway, this is an LPG forum, not a diesel one.

Funny this
I have heard some title title over the years as one dose
And most of it being twaddle of course
But is kerosene not heating oil?
Coz this idiot farmer I knew a few years ago bought him self an old grey fergie that started on petrol and you switch it over and ran it on parathin
Another farmer who tidaled with vintage tractors then told me to make paraparathin you mix kerosene (the bulk of the fuel) with petrol and engine oil cant remember what the quality was now but i did it for him and then pored the kerosene into the tank and it all pissed out from the tank, has we found the parathin side of the tank had a whole in it and i had to replace the tank but thats another story
Come to think of it now i think we did get it to run of the mixture i made
but as I stated above someone told me kerosene was heating oil
And you say heating oil is diesel so the plot thickens!
Coz roger told me parathine is the same as kerosene and there was no difference
And he showed me something on Wikipedia a while ago now stating this

[Gilbertd]

If the Indians are doing it
Can you just buy a conversion like that of an lpg

Yes, see here http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/drag- ... gines.html

a load of old waffle finishing with... but as I stated above someone told me kerosene was heating oil
And you say heating oil is diesel so the plot thickens!

Kerosene is heating oil, diesel is kerosene with added lubricants, paraffin is kerosene usually with added dye, kerosene is also known as JetA as it's what those big silver birds in the sky use as fuel for their jet engines. Paraffin is a name mainly used in the UK and Europe where the Yanks just call it kerosene. You can run a diesel engine on kerosene (or heating oil or paraffin as they are all the same stuff) but it will be worn out in less than 5,000 miles, or you mix it 50/50 with diesel so you've got the lubricants and it doesn't affect the engine at all. However, it does affect the spectrometer that the Customs man uses to check whether your tank is full of diesel or a mix of diesel and kerosene. Not quite as easy to spot as a tank of red, but the penalty is the same.

[rossko]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene#Transportation

[SimonHobson]

I have heard some title title over the years as one dose

I try not to quibble, but don't you have access to a spell checker ? I know spelling isn't everyone's strong point, but it does make reading a lot easier if you get it right. And if you can't be bothered, then what does that say of the value you put on the time of those trying to read your posts ?

But is kerosene not heating oil?
Coz this idiot farmer I knew a few years ago bought him self an old grey fergie that started on petrol and you switch it over and ran it on parathin

Yup, driven those - the good old TE20. Actually they weren't built for paraffin, they were built for a fuel known as Tractor Vaporising Oil (or TVO) - which is no longer available. The small tank was for petrol, used only to start and warm it up, and the main tank for TVO. You start it up, and once it's warm enough to vaporise the TVO then you switch the tap round. Ideally you switch back to petrol before shutting down so you fill the carb with petrol - otherwise you have to get a cup and drain the TVO out of the carb before you can start on petrol again. One thing I discovered about TVO - it softens plastic drinking cups (of the sort used in vending machines) and they sort of collapse into a little plastic puck

Another farmer who tidaled with vintage tractors then told me to make paraparathin you mix kerosene (the bulk of the fuel) with petrol and engine oil cant remember what the quality was now but i did it for him and then pored the kerosene into the tank and it all pissed out from the tank, has we found the parathin side of the tank had a whole in it and i had to replace the tank but thats another story
Come to think of it now i think we did get it to run of the mixture i made

As above, TVO is no longer available, and there have been various recipes concocted over the years to make a substitute.

[Toolless]

Great we have an engine built just after the war that would run on petrol and diesel
I remember putting petrol in my old transit
Did not run very well
but was told by the mechanic just to fill it to the top with diesel and it would be OK
Because Steves tools the market trader from morecambe told me that they add a little bit of petrol to diesel nower days so it dose not frieze
He claims to be an expert in this field as he used to do scrap metal

So we have an engine that will run on petrol and heated diesel with out having to have a carburetor and an injector
Do you think if I had a heat exchange like this one or the one of an lpg I could run my car engine on Kerosine with out having 2 injectors


I think this Kerosine did look a bit red'ish when he filled my drum up that day
When i had the transit I was often dipped by the filth to see if I had red diesel inside
As I had a plant inside that run off a petrol engine with a second tank mounted under the van