LPG in the cold

[SimonHobson]

Although this thread seems to have drifted way off topic, it's made an interesting read.

Often the case !

... As an alternative, I'm now looking at getting a Range Rover and trailer instead where none of the above apply. I'm looking at something around the 96-99 age, early P38, and will be going for a petrol engine with LPG rather than a diseasel. This means I'll probably be getting something like a 4.6 HSE. I assume that at that age the engine is still a development of the original Buick design? Does it suffer from this oil pressure problem and are there any other major flaws that I need to be aware of?

Yes, it's a development of the old 3.5, and I'm told that the block is dimensionally identical to the original 3.5 right down to the UNC threads ! However, the front cover is different and the oil pump is driven direct off the crankshaft - there's no distributor as it's an 'all-electronic' engine by the time the 4.6 arrived.

You can rebuild a 4.6 with the older distributor front cover (what I planned to do, see next paragraph), you just need a spacer under the pulley retaining bolt as the 4.6 crank nose is longer.

The only common-ish issue I'm aware of is the wet liner problem, and that's not all that common. As you might imagine, with the block the same dimensions as the old 3.5, there is going to be less metal between the liners and the water jacket, plus some of the casting equipment was apparently getting 'tired' by the end of Land Rover production. The result is that the aluminium can crack around a liner, and since the liners aren't designed to be wet, a coolant leak appears - either into the sump (bottom), or into the cylinder (top). According to the various bit of information I've read over the years, this mainly occurs if you cook the engine - and it's possible for an expanding piston to stick in the bore and move the liner slightly.

RPI Engineering have some useful info here.

There are outfits (such as ACR)that will remove the liners, machine the block, and install new liners with a 'top hat' ring at the top and an O-ring at the bottom. The end result is a liner that can't move (the top-hat stops it dropping, and the head stops it lifting - and if the block does go porous then the O-ring and head gasket prevent any water leaks. I had a 4.6 short engine in the garage for a while which had this problem - but I let someone have it as a) they needed one urgently*, and b) I reckoned it was going to be a long time before I had 1 1/2 grand to spare (on top of the normal rebuild costs) to have it done.

* He reckoned it 'let go' on him doing about 7k revs during a Comp Safari. The crank was in three pieces and you could put your hand in through one side, and out of the other side of the block Then other competitors weren't amused as they were getting punctures from the bits of engine he'd left behind

[Gilbertd]

Avoid singlepoint LPG systems on either, hopelessly unsuitable, or budget for a sequential upgrade. No distributor but still need to keep on top of plugs and leads, and the odd coil, for good LPG running.

Most of the ones I've seen so far (there seems to be about 10 likely candidates on eBay at any one time) have had sequential, Prins, BRC or not mentioned. Wouldn't consider a singlepoint on something with a plenum that size! My only real concern is that all I've seen so far have a toroidal tank in the spare wheel well, which will only give a range of around 180 miles (probably less when towing) and I'd rather have a bit more than that. I may be investigating an additional tank when the time comes.

Biggest horror stories for these revolve around cooling issues.

As it's going to be used to tow roughly 2.5 tonnes on an 1,800 mile round trip, including some very big hills (the col de grand boeuf on the A6 climbs to over 500m in about 5 miles), the cooling system will need to be spot on anyway so that is probably the most important thing I need to check.

Biggest bills come from "porous block" syndrome. In theory all the blocks that were going to fail should have failed by now and only good ones are left...

Over what period does this make itself felt? I've seen cars with anything from 78,000 to 200,000 on the clock and was thinking of going for as low a mleage as I can find. Would something that done 78,000 have failed already if it was going to?

Rest of car has many electric systems, usual check everything functions advice.
Air suspension can get leaky bags, fixable at sensible cost ; unattended leaks lead to worn out pumps though.
And do avoid pimpmobiles with skinny tyres, black windows and upholstery ... yukk ... it's a landrover for heavens sake !!

Assorted non-functioning electrical items don't worry me, if anything, they're a bonus. I tend to buy cars that have minor faults. Electric windows and the like that don't work tend to keep the price down but as electrics is the day job, can be fixed reasonably easily. Unlike somebody that would take it in to a dealer to have these things done which will cost a fortune in labour charges. I've seen a couple that have been converted to coil springs but I'd rather have something that was as Mr Land Rover intended. It will be a working vehicle with the advantage of a bit of luxury, so won't be a pimped version. My experience is usually that the ones that spend a fortune pimping a car tend to not spend their money on basic servicing, so will be avoiding them anyway.

[magneto]

I realise that I am about to be ostracised by this forum but have you considered a Toyota Landcruiser? I love Disco's and Range Rovers but they can be a bit of a hobby, whether you want one or not. Also, I wonder whether an auto P38 would need an extra trans cooler? Plus, have you checked lpg availability where you are going? Towing 2.5 tons you will use plenty of gas so budget on generous tank capacity. I would go for a Landcruiser 4.2 ( I think) diesel and ask the biodiesel expert to show you how to make it yourself @ 7pence a litre....

[Gilbertd]

You didn't ostracise yourself by mentioning the Toyota Landcruiser, but you did as soon as you mentioned diesel. I am forced to drive one during the day by my employers, I will not buy one for myself. Diesel engines belong in trucks, tractors and public service vehicles, not luxury cars. That's the nice thing about a Range Rover. There are plenty about that have been converted and most seem to be the HSE models so I can travel in comfort (anything will be better than the Iveco truck I have been using!). The Landcruisers seem a bit pricey, less of them about and I can't find a single one already on gas. They also look sort of Japanese......

My runs will be UK to Antibes in the south of France. A26, A6, A7, A8 which all have services about every 50 kms and just about all of them sell LPG. I tend to stop for a break every couple of hours and need a tank of fuel every other stop, I'll just need to fill up each time.

[magneto]

Wonder why they are pricey? The old adage - 'quality is remembered long after price is forgotten' may come to haunt you on the hard shoulder one day (no offence, just realism). Towing 2.5 tons is surely all about torque, and that's what most turbodiesels, of a size, have in abundance. Comp Safari etc racing is what petrol V8's excel at - light and fast.
Thinking again, I would also consider a U.S. import Cummins powered dually pick up, and you would even be sitting on the right side! Don't rust, don't depreciate, don't break, nice to be in. I am now off my soapbox and hope you let us all know your choice and how it turned out.
Cheers, Steve.

[Gilbertd]

Towing 2.5 tons is surely all about torque, and that's what most turbodiesels, of a size, have in abundance.

Exactly, Range Rover 2.5DSE 136 bhp, 268 NM, 4.6HSE 221 bhp, 380NM, no contest. A 4.6 on LPG will give over 100NM more torque and cost roughly the same in fuel. Something with a bigger diesel engine may get the power up to petrol RR levels but at the expense of running costs. I'll put up with the risks of unreliability (that's what European breakdown cover is for), for proper luxury and power. My problem with Japanese imitations is the plastic wood and how they even manage to make leather look like plastic. All made for the American market where nobody has any taste anyway.

Steering wheel on the wrong side isn't a worry as the only time it would be a problem is at the motorway tolls and I've a Telepeage blipper for those so don't even need to stop. Although I have thought that the ideal vehicle would be a LHD 4.6HSE with a sequential LPG conversion. However, I think that's limiting my choices slightly.......

[magneto]

Toyota 4.2 TD 420nm torque, 22mpg towing 3 tons, and doesn't break. UK pleasure? - a Range Rover. Gobi desert? - a Land Cruiser. I think it's an Australian quote - 'If you want to go outback take a Landrover, if you want to come back take a Toyota'.
Cheers, Steve.

[lpgelite]

The downsides are that I'd need a Good Vehicle Operators Licence, the ferry companies charge as freight, the French Motorway tolls are double what they are for a car and then there's all the tacho regs and driving hours complications. As an alternative, I'm now looking at getting a Range Rover and trailer instead where none of the above apply

I would check this with DVLA or VOSA before spending £1000s on an outfit.

Some years ago I remember reading somewhere that if your total weight is over 3500kg you still fall into this category and would require a tacho etc., if you're doing this for business purposes.

It would only take some sharp eyed jobsworth to spot you making regular journeys with different cars on the trailer to potentially land in serious bother. The onus would then be upon you to prove that you are not doing this for business purposes.

Not here to be a killjoy, but would hate to see a fellow LPG'er land in the mire....

[ianhatten]

Back on subject of the cold and LPG.
I noticed during the very cold spell, -16.5c, that the car had, unknown to me, switched back to petrol and the warning light on the switch was constantly illuminated, 2005 Corsa 1.2 SXi, on the way to work, I had already covered 40+ motorway miles by the time I noticed it so not too sure when it changed. Return home was fine and no other issues until it dropped to -14.5c and it happened again, return home again was fine. No other issues since then so keeping my fingers crossed it was just the extreme, well for us anyway, cold those mornings.

[MarkJones]

that would have been caused by over use of the cars heater.

try maybe next time to use re-circulate button ..

what was your cars temperature gauge showing at the time .......perhaps your thermostats dicky

or

you need to blank off part of the radiator in such conditions in the future ..

this will prevent the draft cooling the block.

all the best.markj

[ianhatten]

Thanks for the reply Mark.
Thermostat recently replaced, prior to this and seemed to be working fine.
I did not notice what the temp gauge was showing at the time, the heater was on, well climate control, and I don't recall it working "overtime". The second time it happened I was over 10 miles into my journey and about to join a motorway when I noticed the light continuously lit, it then remained on for the remainder of that journey.
All has been fine since so I am hoping it was just the extreme weather.

[woody]

hmmm, all i can say is , i didn,nt blank my radiator off, my heater was on full all the time and apart from a slightly longer change over time , about a mile instead of 3/4.the lpg system ran perfectly,still gives the same mpg

mind you we only had mild weather compared to you boys oop norf