I have been looking around and this Liquid LPG really looks so good, compared to all the vapour systems that are out now, a lot of turbo Performance cars suffer really high Exhaust gas temps on LPG, OK for the average 4x4 or family car. but this http://www.icomitalia.it/lang1/imp_jtg.html
look so good, direct liquid has to be the way ahead for all this, so simple and gains in performance.
Dave
well it looks like this is the best System to have
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calebos
Why would exhaust temps be lower with this ? Its the same fuel.
The only diffrence is that its decompresses inside the engine so it cools down the fuel mixture before ignition.
I wonder how they sorted out filtering....
I dont know if you ever seen a lpg filter from vapour installations but I wouldnt want to have that stuff go inside my engine
The only diffrence is that its decompresses inside the engine so it cools down the fuel mixture before ignition.
I wonder how they sorted out filtering....
I dont know if you ever seen a lpg filter from vapour installations but I wouldnt want to have that stuff go inside my engine
this stuff looks the biz, liquid coolers than vaporised... I found this on another forum in au...have a good read.
I am the Australian LPG Warehouse's Managing Engineer. The Liquid Injection system you are discussing above is made by Icom and developed for Australian vehicles and conditions by us. We have been doing extensive durability testing and development on the system (Called JTG) over the past year with great results.
We have been developing emission compliant kits for the most common vehicles first. On that list is BA/BF sedan, Territory 1&2, Holden 5.7lt sedan and Holden 6lt sedan.
We have given our first training session on the JTG liquid injection system to our first group of installers with positive feedback. As the demand for this system is huge, we have made a decision to only supply to the first 2 groups trained for the first 6 months. To be a certified installer of this product the installer must first attend the training and have the appropriate tooling as the technology is quite different to traditional systems.
Just to cover a few topics discussed above. The system has no requirement for any injection timing strategies. Full control of the system is via the factory engine management system. This is quite different to standard vapour injection systems as they need to manipulate the injection pulse with due to pressure, temperature, and flow issues. The JTG controller is only there to switch the pulse from the petrol to lpg injectors and control the LPG pump.
The system is quite similar to a petrol system. The cylinder has a pump integrated that pushes the LPG to the injectors common rail. This is then ran through a pressure regulator similar to a petrol regulator and fed back to the tank via a return line. The pressure is kept 3 bar over tank pressure.
The injectors deliver liquid LPG directly into the manifold via a small tube. This is installed much the same as vapour injection. A hole is drilled in the manifold as close to the petrol injector as possible and a nozzle is taped in. The difference is that the liquid is passed through a small inner hose that is inserted into the nozzle. An outer hose is then placed over the smaller hose and onto the outside of the nozzle.
The injector is made by Siemens specifically for the JTG system. The flow of this injector is matched to the flow of the petrol injector via a calibration tip inserted into the housing. This is all developed by us before the kit is sent out. We measure the flow of the petrol injector for each vehicle type and then select the appropriate calibrator and injector combination. This is then tested for power, drivability, economy and Emissions. Once we have a final match, this system is then sent to the emission lab for certification.
The end result is a complete kit with laser cut brackets, plug and play wiring and ready to bolt on and drive. We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. This makes it a very viable option. As with all technology it is more expensive than its predecessor. However it will only be from $300 to $400 more per kit depending on the vehicle. This is well made up for in the 15% benefit over vapour injection economy.
The system can run as straight gas or duel fuel. The only issue with straight gas is that there is a delay of 3 seconds before start up. JTG requires a purge of the supply and return lines before start up. This is to remove any vapour from the lines. On duel fuel systems this is set for about 30 seconds. The system during this time will run on petrol while it circulates LPG. After this time it will then switch to LPG by itself. Straight gas vehicles have this purge time set at a minimum.
The system cannot be upgraded from traditional systems as mentioned above. The cylinder has an integrated pump and uses a return line (This pump however can be accessed). The fill line in the JTG system also has a filter. This is to stop any contaminants affecting the pump. The filter can be replaced and we set an interval of 50,000km.
Our JTG system was not derived from a truck system and has been througherly tested both in Europe and Australia. In fact over 30,000 vehicles already have this system. Ford, Subaru, and a list of other manufacturers are also using this system from factory.
Our website is alpgw.com.au. At the moment there is no reference to out JTG liquid injection system as it has only just hit the market. It will soon be populated with all the information you require but in the meantime you can have a look at Icom’s site (The component manufacturer). They are at icomitalia.it/lang1/index.html. I will also soon post some images on this forum.
(The forum would not let me post links. Just copy and paste into internet explorer )
I am the Australian LPG Warehouse's Managing Engineer. The Liquid Injection system you are discussing above is made by Icom and developed for Australian vehicles and conditions by us. We have been doing extensive durability testing and development on the system (Called JTG) over the past year with great results.
We have been developing emission compliant kits for the most common vehicles first. On that list is BA/BF sedan, Territory 1&2, Holden 5.7lt sedan and Holden 6lt sedan.
We have given our first training session on the JTG liquid injection system to our first group of installers with positive feedback. As the demand for this system is huge, we have made a decision to only supply to the first 2 groups trained for the first 6 months. To be a certified installer of this product the installer must first attend the training and have the appropriate tooling as the technology is quite different to traditional systems.
Just to cover a few topics discussed above. The system has no requirement for any injection timing strategies. Full control of the system is via the factory engine management system. This is quite different to standard vapour injection systems as they need to manipulate the injection pulse with due to pressure, temperature, and flow issues. The JTG controller is only there to switch the pulse from the petrol to lpg injectors and control the LPG pump.
The system is quite similar to a petrol system. The cylinder has a pump integrated that pushes the LPG to the injectors common rail. This is then ran through a pressure regulator similar to a petrol regulator and fed back to the tank via a return line. The pressure is kept 3 bar over tank pressure.
The injectors deliver liquid LPG directly into the manifold via a small tube. This is installed much the same as vapour injection. A hole is drilled in the manifold as close to the petrol injector as possible and a nozzle is taped in. The difference is that the liquid is passed through a small inner hose that is inserted into the nozzle. An outer hose is then placed over the smaller hose and onto the outside of the nozzle.
The injector is made by Siemens specifically for the JTG system. The flow of this injector is matched to the flow of the petrol injector via a calibration tip inserted into the housing. This is all developed by us before the kit is sent out. We measure the flow of the petrol injector for each vehicle type and then select the appropriate calibrator and injector combination. This is then tested for power, drivability, economy and Emissions. Once we have a final match, this system is then sent to the emission lab for certification.
The end result is a complete kit with laser cut brackets, plug and play wiring and ready to bolt on and drive. We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. This makes it a very viable option. As with all technology it is more expensive than its predecessor. However it will only be from $300 to $400 more per kit depending on the vehicle. This is well made up for in the 15% benefit over vapour injection economy.
The system can run as straight gas or duel fuel. The only issue with straight gas is that there is a delay of 3 seconds before start up. JTG requires a purge of the supply and return lines before start up. This is to remove any vapour from the lines. On duel fuel systems this is set for about 30 seconds. The system during this time will run on petrol while it circulates LPG. After this time it will then switch to LPG by itself. Straight gas vehicles have this purge time set at a minimum.
The system cannot be upgraded from traditional systems as mentioned above. The cylinder has an integrated pump and uses a return line (This pump however can be accessed). The fill line in the JTG system also has a filter. This is to stop any contaminants affecting the pump. The filter can be replaced and we set an interval of 50,000km.
Our JTG system was not derived from a truck system and has been througherly tested both in Europe and Australia. In fact over 30,000 vehicles already have this system. Ford, Subaru, and a list of other manufacturers are also using this system from factory.
Our website is alpgw.com.au. At the moment there is no reference to out JTG liquid injection system as it has only just hit the market. It will soon be populated with all the information you require but in the meantime you can have a look at Icom’s site (The component manufacturer). They are at icomitalia.it/lang1/index.html. I will also soon post some images on this forum.
(The forum would not let me post links. Just copy and paste into internet explorer )
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calebos
This says 15 % compared to regular vapour installation so for me with avarage 10liters/100km its like 1,5 lpg liter, so that makes like 1,6 AU dollar per 100Km so it will pay off after >20.000km.
So for a regular city guy its like WOW I got money back after 2 years !
And ofcourse this doesnt count spare parts costs.
I think there is a limit with these savings and yes this is high tech stuff but I dont think that with these savings any 'normal' user would care.
LPG is a success because it WAS DAMN CHEAP at start compared to petrol so a 300e kit quickly payed off with approx 40% of costs compared to running on petrol.
For me LPG reminds me of times when it was about 0,25Euro per liter
Nowdays its still cheap but I would seriously calculate my milage before deciding on it again !
So for a regular city guy its like WOW I got money back after 2 years !
And ofcourse this doesnt count spare parts costs.
I think there is a limit with these savings and yes this is high tech stuff but I dont think that with these savings any 'normal' user would care.
LPG is a success because it WAS DAMN CHEAP at start compared to petrol so a 300e kit quickly payed off with approx 40% of costs compared to running on petrol.
For me LPG reminds me of times when it was about 0,25Euro per liter
Nowdays its still cheap but I would seriously calculate my milage before deciding on it again !
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Chemware
Hi SupraDave,
I'm very interested in this JTG liquid injection system.
We have an 05 Subaru Forester that comes off lease shortly, and I am looking into LPG. I'm sold on the benefits, but one thing that is holding me back is the issue of valve seat wear.
I contacted Subaru Australia in regards to Subaru UK offering "factory fitted" LPG, but SA said they had no such plans, and further that they advised against LPG conversions for Subarus because of the valve seat wear problem due to the higher combustion temperatures of LPG.
I've seen many people recommend FlashLube, but it seems to me that your liquid injection system might also solve the wear problem.
What are your thoughts about this ?
I'm very interested in this JTG liquid injection system.
We have an 05 Subaru Forester that comes off lease shortly, and I am looking into LPG. I'm sold on the benefits, but one thing that is holding me back is the issue of valve seat wear.
I contacted Subaru Australia in regards to Subaru UK offering "factory fitted" LPG, but SA said they had no such plans, and further that they advised against LPG conversions for Subarus because of the valve seat wear problem due to the higher combustion temperatures of LPG.
I've seen many people recommend FlashLube, but it seems to me that your liquid injection system might also solve the wear problem.
What are your thoughts about this ?
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shinjukumaster
I would make a distinction between liquid, and lubricant. A liquid is not necessarily a lubricant. I cannot see how liquid LPG offers more lubrication than gas - its constituent properties are the same. Flashlube is a well known effective lubricant to reduce valve seat wear, and should be able to protect the Subaru, as it does many other vehicles with valve seat recession vulnerabilities. But I wouldn't say its a fit and forget solution - you still need to monitor and maintain valve clearances to get indication of any potential problems before they arise. That said, I see more vehicles with soft valve seats being converted (using Flashlube) because of rising fuel costs, whereas previosuly, people might have decided not to risk it.
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calebos
In Poland nobody uses any flash lubes or anything to protect valves and there are many many brands starting with old junks and ending on some 5L fuel eaters.
It is a fact that gas hits valve seat but its not that there will be problems after 10k km.
We used to have a Vito with 2.0L engine which worked on a 1st gen LPG so it hardly had any proper mixture on LPG and it done 300kkm.
After suspecting a broken engine head (not lpg related issue) it was taken off and the seats were ok with some mininal signs of lpg.
Another thing about the engine was that cylinders looked like they just left factory. And if you ask Mercedes they will tell you not to put LPG into it.
Unless you're gonna do a million km with it why give a f about valve seats ?
Not to mention that fixing them is not that expensive... Not to mention a million km savings on LPG
And one more thing.... I really doubt that the issue is caused by LPG being dry. In my opinion its the fact that lpg 'reduces valve clearance'.
It was always suggested to adjust it more frequently on LPG (if manual adjust possible).
I think its a mixed story about the seats with leaded fuel times before the seats were hardened.
My version could also apply to honda engine's where they tell you not to mount it because valves bla bla. They forget to mention that in most honda engines valve's are manually adjusted and Ive heard its a day's job for service becaus it needs to be extremely precise.
Still this is my speculation based on engineers opinion and it would be nice to verify it with some hard knowledge.
It is a fact that gas hits valve seat but its not that there will be problems after 10k km.
We used to have a Vito with 2.0L engine which worked on a 1st gen LPG so it hardly had any proper mixture on LPG and it done 300kkm.
After suspecting a broken engine head (not lpg related issue) it was taken off and the seats were ok with some mininal signs of lpg.
Another thing about the engine was that cylinders looked like they just left factory. And if you ask Mercedes they will tell you not to put LPG into it.
Unless you're gonna do a million km with it why give a f about valve seats ?
Not to mention that fixing them is not that expensive... Not to mention a million km savings on LPG
And one more thing.... I really doubt that the issue is caused by LPG being dry. In my opinion its the fact that lpg 'reduces valve clearance'.
It was always suggested to adjust it more frequently on LPG (if manual adjust possible).
I think its a mixed story about the seats with leaded fuel times before the seats were hardened.
My version could also apply to honda engine's where they tell you not to mount it because valves bla bla. They forget to mention that in most honda engines valve's are manually adjusted and Ive heard its a day's job for service becaus it needs to be extremely precise.
Still this is my speculation based on engineers opinion and it would be nice to verify it with some hard knowledge.
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shinjukumaster
Well I have adjusted a 16V Honda's valves in less than 2 hours, from start to finish. I don't see how it needs one whole day. Maybe a 24V would take half a day max?
Isn't it the case that reducing valve clearance (tightening/smaller gap) is in fact caused by valve seat recession? I for one would not take the risk with a Honda, nor would I want the downtime for a head replacement / valve seat replacement.
At worst, Flashlube is cheap insurance, in my opinion...
though I am not an engineer.
Isn't it the case that reducing valve clearance (tightening/smaller gap) is in fact caused by valve seat recession? I for one would not take the risk with a Honda, nor would I want the downtime for a head replacement / valve seat replacement.
At worst, Flashlube is cheap insurance, in my opinion...
though I am not an engineer.
"The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%"
I am a little sceptical about this claim.
The main reason, as I understand it, that LPG does less MPG than petrol is that it has 15% less energy than petrol, not due to the LPG vapour system being less efficient. So unless it's 10% more efficient than the original petrol installation, and 15-20% more efficient than LPG vapour injection, this looks like an optimistic claim.
I am a little sceptical about this claim.
The main reason, as I understand it, that LPG does less MPG than petrol is that it has 15% less energy than petrol, not due to the LPG vapour system being less efficient. So unless it's 10% more efficient than the original petrol installation, and 15-20% more efficient than LPG vapour injection, this looks like an optimistic claim.
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Chemware
I suspect that because it is coming into the cylinders as a liquid, there are a couple of possible effects:gfrost wrote:"The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%"
I am a little sceptical about this claim.
- The inlet valves are cooled by the vaporization of some of the liquid LPG;
A smaller volume of air/fuel mix is needed to deliver the same amount of fuel and air as a vapour system;
Combustion would be slower because droplets don't burn as fast as a stoichiometric gas mixture, so you could probably retard ignition and so develop more power and greater thermodynamic efficiency.
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supercharged_buddy
- Junior Member
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:12 am
I quite like how every time i read economy figures for the same LPG system it's never the same.gfrost wrote:"The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%"
I am a little sceptical about this claim.
The main reason, as I understand it, that LPG does less MPG than petrol is that it has 15% less energy than petrol, not due to the LPG vapour system being less efficient. So unless it's 10% more efficient than the original petrol installation, and 15-20% more efficient than LPG vapour injection, this looks like an optimistic claim.
They were claiming identical economy to petrol on a couple of the aussie forums.