LPG Pricing - factors behind recent increases.

[Rangie V8]

well ; as stated , spain is a monopoly situation with repsol having a 90% share of the market.....and I am a customer for both

despite this , lpg at the pump is currently 55 cents/litre , and propane in bottles 50 cents/litre ,although it went up to 63 at the pump last year

doesn't look like no cartel in UK to me !

repsol ships bottled gas over the border and sells it in france , for an 11Kg bottle , at €22 compared to € 11 in spain .......there is a cartel in france as well

what did you say it costs in UK ? the tax there is extremely low

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from but they don't look correct to me. Apart from having one of the most ineffective marketing strategies on the planet, the reason Respsol has such a dominant market share is due an agreement between Howard Hughes and Franco which developed Repsol into an international oil and gas distributor. In return, one of the agreements put in place by Franco was an artificial limit set by the Junta whereby and pricing movements have to be agreed with by/with the government.

In other words, their selling prices are artificially capped. I'll ask this question of the conspiracy theorists - if these 'cartel's that you're so convinced exist why haven't the respective governments of the UK and France investigated the situations? Mainly, because they don't exist!

The pump price of LPG was around 80 centimos last time I filled up in Madrid (June 2007) and that was at one of five LPG filling stations in the country open to the public. Can you imagine the amount of whingeing on here if that was the extent of the distribution network in the UK?

I also don't understand where you're getting your cylinder sizes from? Butane/Propane cylinders are marketed in Spain as 12.5kg but I've never come across 11kg cylinders.

A couple of weekends ago I paid €12.63 for a propane cylinder which works out at 38ppl - nowhere near the prices you're quoting.

[Rangie V8]

so how much is
if someone cares to look it up I bet lpg will be at least double the price of petrol;perhaps our rangie friend will provide us with world market prices for both

incidentally , the price rigging affair in the USA ? BP !!! it's just as illegal there

February 4th prices were:

LPG - $797.50
Unleaded $815.55

So, certainly not double the price of petrol but slightly less. Apart from Congress looking for a victim and conveniently finding one in BP who were found guilty and fined appropriately - what's your point?

[lebesset]

well rangie , ask the man on the repsol truck to show you the local price ,, it varies according to transport cost apparently, but ~I paid €11.85 a week ago for an 11 Kg propano , same size bottle is filled with 12.5 Kg if it is butano ; due to pressure differences this weight per unit volume contained is universal ...in france they mostly have slightly bigger bottles with 15Kg and 13 Kg respectively

perhaps you bought from a retailer ....they normally add a bit on !

I filled with lpg yesterday at murcia at 56 cents [ although the locals often say centimo's they no longer exist officially , went out with the peseta , of course ] a week ago I paid the same price at alicante , before that a little less at valencia and barcelona ; last time I was at huelva they had changed to a portuguese supplier as it was cheaper

re the number of stations , you are correct , it is not a lot , but more like 20 that I have been to , though cartagena and malaga have both closed now ; apart from andalucia/almeria I drive always on gas however

in the franco days there was an absolute monopoly , guess who the owners were, but since broken by the EU ; Cepsa are growing their network rapidly and many people are changing as they like the Inox bottles; personally I stick with repsol due to french/ portuguese availability,

anyway , you say you paid $1/Kg for a gas bottle which is what I said , more or less ; where is the huge disparity in that ; and the highest price I paid at the pump last year was 63 cents , in fact that was the highest in 20 years !

apparently there is a list of lpg pumps in spain on the web ...perhaps you should have a look!!!
last year I travelled north from the algarve filling with lpg at

huelva
sevilla
cordoba
granada
bailen
albacete
madrid
zaragossa
lleida


en route to andorra

that's more than 5 I think!!!

[Rangie V8]

There were only five listed online last year which is what I was referring to. Even accepting the prices you're paying you still don't explain why you think the UK and France are operating a cartel when the only differences are the level of duty?

At 56 centimos, that's the equivalent of 42ppl and as I've already stated the Spanish gas prices are artificially depressed by government legislation. Therefore, 'high LPG prices' in the UK and France are a result of higher fuel taxation, not cartel activity.

[Dave K]

...and of course, it's just a complete coincidence that when one lpg retailer in my area bangs on another couple of pence, within hours all the others have followed suit.

[MarkJones]

ah but if they take too much of a cut ..
its going to become unviable for those contemplating spending £1500 plus for a conversion.

will only be viable to those avoiding congestion charge

all the best.markj

[Dave K]

As I understand the new congestion charge proposals ( and some one will correct me if I'm wrong ) Livingston is to remove the discount available to vehicles over 3000 lts that have been converted to LPG or which are listed as being dual fuel. Will apply to vehicles registered before March 2001 as well as those that are now gauged on their Co2 measurements.

[lebesset]

just to clarify a few points here ; in spain where repsol have a monopoly position the government specify the maximum prices to stop them exploiting their position , like monopolies in UK , water for example ; this applies only to bottled gas , not at the pump , where diesel is a serious competitor ; despite the capped price on bottles [ 50% of france and possibly UK ?] it is still highly profitable so foreign competition is coming into the market since the EU forced the spanish government to open it

the euro having risen against the dollar in the last year [ all petrochemicals are priced in dollars ] the price at the pump has DROPPED 10% ; in france [ also $ of course ]the price has gone up ; in uk [ £ about level pegging with the dollar ] the price has also gone up

what does this tell you about the french and uk markets .....it's not rocket science ; having been in a similar market position for many years I must take the 5th amendment !

[lebesset]

FINALLY have found the tax levied on lpg in spain !!!
following the tax reduction of 2 years ago, if one includes the tax on the tax [ ie vat on duty ] you will be paying approx 5p /litre

so the nett of tax price in spain with no control on the price is currently 33-35p /litre ; no competition in spain ; lots in uk I am told ...so the nett of tax price will obviously be cheaper , especially as the country is so much smaller [ transport]

so 45p top priceincluding tax in uk ?

[Dave K]

I wish !!!!

Average around 52p a lt now and rising. ( PS please don't tell me about a bloke in deepest wales who is still charging 45p lt....he's about 152 miles away from my home. )

[ams]

paid 44p at Birmingham Autogas today - its about a minute from J6 of the M6
- also paid 44p at a 4x4 place in Birmingham City centre on Friday.

Guess there is more competition around here

[Dave K]

North West seems to be a bit of a black hole then. Morrisons 49.9p but staff there tell me that next delivery will see it rise to 50.9 and then 2p plus vat for next duty rise in April.

[a137699]

Sorry for the late drag up of this post. I registered on here months ago, but only got my account activated today.... anyways....

I appreciate what the orginal author is trying to say... BUT.... I still cannot understand why the little independent gas seller such as MMS nr Stafford, or the guys in Worsley nr Manchester can sell LPG for about 42p a litre, whereas the shell / BP garages who buy in BULK and must get it for a lot less feel they are justified in charging 58p a litre. It's scandalous, and just goes to show they see LPG as a cash cow.

[lebesset]

I recently had a discussion with the manager of my local filling station ; he was quite honest about his pricing policy

95 and diesel are highly competitive , with small profit margins ; he pays 3 cents/litre more on 98 and charges 10 cents more ; on lpg there isn't another pump for 20 miles , so he charges 77 cents to whereas 67 is the price in areas with competition [ and 82 on the motorway !] as he says , what choice do you have that is any better ; in spain with a similar tax regime the price is 55 cents ...diesel is much cheaper there so it is necessary to keep the market ,also the wholesale price is higher in france as the cartel fixes the prices !

so , ross is of course correct ; you charge the highest price you can get aaway with ; notice how the price of electronic stuff drops by 90% after a few years when competition starts ; fairness? what's that got to do with business ?