LPG Prices

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volvo940 · #41 Post by **volvo940** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:10 am

Having started with DIY install in the early eighty's for a few years switching to diesel due to the tax being so high. I restarted three years ago on LPG with a cheap car already converted removing it when the car died and subsequently fitting the kit(DIY) to two further cars I can only echo the point Mark made. Now if my insurance company gave me grief I would switch back to diesel in a flash, there would be no benefits (financially) in continuing with LPG I think you would be up s*&t street as most of the LPG users would only have tales of woe, with dirty gas, high service bills, financial loss etc Or do you think the modern injection system fitted by “approved installers” a viable option doing a realistic mileage? The LPGA should have a long hard think if LPG retailers lost over half of their customers what the result would be

pete_hill · #42 Post by **pete_hill** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:19 am

Schuck? (I read that as something else

) <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Schuck 12.21 pence per kilogram. This is equivalent to 8.56 pence per litre.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> when did the density of LPG become 0.7Kg/L? LPG density in UK is close to that of pure Propane, more like 0.51Kg/L. So 12.21 pence per kilogram duty is equivalent to 6.22 pence per Liter. If they have been taking 8.56 p/L tax then a rebate of 2.33 p/L is due. Typical, 1/2 the reply to less than 1/10 of the original points. Aviation fuel tax is the only bit they really don't have any control over so it really sticks in their greedy gullets and causes much wailing and gnashing of tax man's teeth. They can't raise the price of autogas too much, once they exceed the price of bottled domestic gas they will have people using tax free domestic propane. Just like the chip fat diesels but unlike a simple sample from a tank, they will need a new Euro wide regulation for a different marker in the domestic gas to detect it's use.

MarkJones · #43 Post by **MarkJones** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:26 am

Another letter sent out to Mark Schuck IN REPLY PART ONE HI Mark, Thank you for the reply you gave to me on 22/12/06. You did address a few points I made ...but not all of them The point I was trying to make is that the government have the power to tell. petrol companies what to charge for LPG . Don't say you don't ....because ...this is a government that have the power to do every thing else .including fight useless wars ...wasting billions of pounds of tax payers money. why are they not in the best interests of the environment not doing this. The LPG conversion business and all interest in it will soon die . If no one, at least tries to fix the price low ....OR advice that the price is adjusted ...come to that. Your government is not exercising its full power, if you don't have control over this. My thoughts on this You are effectively backing down to the petrol companies. What you are doing, is letting them walk all over you . Seems the the petrol companies have more clout than Saddam Husein and Bin Laden put together . You're more frightened of the petrol companies The petrol companies are the enemy to fight ...CONTINUES

MarkJones · #44 Post by **MarkJones** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:28 am

PART TWO Get the price down below 36p a litre. That's the price, it was, when the present petrol prices ,now were. In other words when petrol was last at 84 pence per litre a couple of years ago...LPG was at 36 pence per litre. Now in most forecourts LPG averages 43 pence per litre ...and many have it above 50 pence per litre . Petrol now, is yet again at 84 pence per litre ....but LPG stayed up.... it hasn't come down . to 36 pence per litre like it was . Remember LPG is a waste product of petrol refining that would otherwise be flaired off into the environment. This is greed on the part of the petrol companies ... and in the best of in environmental interest ...you should try to do something about this. If you don't, it just sends out the message to us all ...that your department and the government is weak. all the best....Mark Jones

go_lpg · #45 Post by **go_lpg** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:15 am

To quote Mark Jones -- 'Think the DIY'ERS are part of the reason the lpg conversion market ...is "just" about keeping going, in most of the country excluding london and surounding counties.' I cannot agree with you Mark. Automotive LPG is and always has been in a precarious position in UK for many reasons. In some ways this is a good thing as the tax spotlight is not shone upon it with full force. 125,000 LPG users or thereabouts = Not a great tax loss. I suspect 12.5 million users would be another story. Still, it would not take much to wipe out the whole industry overnight. Not too long ago the LPGA had to work very hard to convince the Government to maintain the LPG tax break. Poor quality conversions, many of them DIY or non- LPGA certified were found to be pumping out MORE pollution than if the vehicles had not been converted at all. The Government had a valid argument – If the tax break is provided on the basis of a reduction in emissions and those emissions are seen to get worse as a result, there are no grounds for the tax break. Luckily for you, I, all of us using LPG, the LPGA managed to avert what could easily have been the end of Automotive LPG in UK. Note that this could happen again, the risk is ever present as long as poorly effected conversions exist.

go_lpg · #46 Post by **go_lpg** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:18 am

Another great risk is for just one major accident to occur, involving a converted car and resulting in (heaven forbid) an explosion. If the car involved has been properly converted using components in accordance with R67/01 and carried out by a trained, qualified and experienced person with suitable facilities and tools, the chances are that it will not end that way. Many properly converted vehicles have suffered accident damage and/or fire, although they presented no increased risk to anyone (see at least two such cars on our site). On the other hand, an LPG tank actually fell off a DIY converted Range Rover in the Midlands a couple of years ago. It follows that the greatest risk is likely to come from installations which have not been carried out as well as they could (should) be. It is also likely that DIY conversions, with no check on the parts used, the skill of the installer nor the safety of the finished installation present the very highest risk of all. Also note that many DIY conversion kits are sold by unscrupulous dealers or bought from 'E Bay' and the like, sold by foreign companies offloading their outdated, damaged, unsuitable or otherwise substandard stock. When doing this they are avoiding EU certification. Often they don’t even supply safety advice or installation instructions, meaning that even the most competent DIY’er does not get a fair chance of getting it right. This leaves us with two of the worst elements you could have in any one issue - A DIY installer most likely to have little (or no) experience, probably not having the right equipment and tools to do the job, having no guidance of any kind but trying to install an LPG kit that may not up to the minimum standard required.

go_lpg · #47 Post by **go_lpg** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:23 am

The reasons above show why I cannot agree with you. It could easily be the other way around. Far from being 'part of the reason the lpg conversion market ...is "just" about keeping going', DIY installations could actually pose the greatest threat to Automotive LPG in this Country. I have no plans to duck behind any furniture, not even the Xmas tree, but before the DIY Army reach for their weapons, just let them note that I am not strictly Anti – DIY. I am, however, very firmly Anti – BODGE and I make no apology for this. Regards Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

volvo940 · #48 Post by **volvo940** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:53 am

steve I see that you are an ardent LPG supporter Just tell me how many of you family or CLOSE friends are running LPG multipoint converted at £2000 and LPGA serviced?

momorris · #49 Post by **momorris** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:32 pm

Steve you pick the most extreme examples of things that can happen. "Many properly converted vehicles have suffered accident damage and/or fire, although they presented no increased risk to anyone" - likewise im sure many diy cars have had the same and had no fires, the equipment has built in safety features and so this shouldnt happen with a diy as well. "On the other hand, an LPG tank actually fell off a DIY converted Range Rover in the Midlands a couple of years ago." - this could easily happen with a genuine install as well. As far as im concerned the lpga certificates are the same as mot's. Only really usefull untill you drive out. Any user can mess about with a properly fitted install but then wave the magic certificate if it goes wrong. The general attitude to me seems to be one of elitism ie we want to be the only people who can fit these and if you dont like it tough. What next, you cant fit your own brake pads - you might not stop. You cant alter your own fuelling system - you might get it wrong. Along with anything else that the Diyer can simply go out and do now. Some of the prices i was quoted for installs were simply crazy and i know the job would have been equal or less than what i have actually done myself. As for the standards needed to get the lpga approval - how many times have we seen complaints, what stops an installer falling back to poor standards once they have approval. Afterall the customer wont know the difference will they. I noticed you state you are not anti diy and the fact that you give support on these forums would back that claim. I simply cannot believe the attitude that seems to exist though in some quarters that all installers are fitting to the highest standards.

woody · #50 Post by **woody** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:05 pm

Steve , very eloquently typed,i could not agree more nor used better words.You ,i think have hit the nail on the head. Volvo 940, why would you revert back to diesel if asked for a certificate,these are available from all approved installers[cost varies],unless of course you are know the kit you have fitted will not meet COP11!!. John Morris, the reason Steve has picked these examples is almost certainly because as pro installers we see this kind of thing all the time. I,like Steve have seen some very good DIY installs,most of which have been overseen.However , for every good one there are dozens of really bad ones.It would only take 1 instance [explosion etc,or god forbid a fatality]and the industry would be sunk. I am very passionate about the LPG industry and would like to finish my working career in it. What effect would waving a certificate have if the system failed?,i cant see the releveace of this statement. Yes we are the elite,this is a title given to us by our suppliers,they will only supply people they know are up capable of carrying out a conversion way and above the COP11 standard,and as so the software is only available to these dealers.

momorris · #51 Post by **momorris** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:44 pm

Why would an explosion occur when the safety features built in are supposed to prevent this from ever taking place. The relavence of waving the certificate is the point that like an mot its pretty useless once the car has been driven out of the installers. The owner can mess with what he likes. If then an explosion did take place do you think they would own up to messing or simply declare "it conforms to cop11 look i can prove it.". How many times have you seen cars driving around that are obvious mot fails, the driver doesnt care though because he has that bit of paper for the year. So it must be o.k. The suppliers give you approval on the day of inspection - so now if i pay the money can i get approval, my conversion is above cop11, this however does not mean my next one will be. This point has been seen from the reports of dodgy approved installers. Its easy to lift your game when needed. While i respect all the installers on this forum due to the time and help they offer too many i have experienced many installers (when looking for my install) doing the industry no favours. I have had people slate systems that were recommended by others because they dont fit them. I have also had indviduals slated in an effort to get the custom. This does you all no favours and merely leaves the customer questioning fact from fiction and the worth of even having an install done. I think the original point stated above though is now in Edinburgh for example at 50p a litre what would be the payback time. Since my conversion i have seen nothing but price increases. Only 18p a litre to go and for me at those prices and all i have done is increase the range of my car (no cost saving as economy 20% less) so i wouldnt have had it done. The installers problem is how many others are noticing this fact.

MarkJones · #52 Post by **MarkJones** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:22 pm

Like I said ...main mans address is above ... if you care, get a letter off to him ...but DIY'ERS don't tell him you've fitted the system yourself.... Just state reasons like payback time, maintenance issues ...petrol companies being greedy .. the more complaints this Mark Schuck gets the better ... lets make him sit up and take notice ... I've sent two letters off to him now ... it's someone else's turn. Do nothing but bicker here ...and that's what will happen ...nothing .. I urge everybody to ...phone email or write to this guy .. In about 2 years time when it's at 50 pence per litre everywhere ...no bugger will want to pay £2000 to convert ...except the Londoners for their exemption charge ...and jag and land-rover owners....who will be saving bugger all by then. And you guys around London .....don't rest ...because if the lpg industry fails in the rest of the country ...it will take you with it!!!!. All the best.....mark

cortinadave · #53 Post by **cortinadave** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:04 pm

It's incredibly short - sighted of the retailers to overcharge for LPG. What they don't seem to understand is that people who are running on gas are more aware of fuel prices than most, so are far less likely to fill up anyway where they see overpriced fuel. I for example always fill up at the ASDA in Kirkcaldy which is about 10 miles out of my way, but is 39.9p per litre. I'd much prefer to fill at a station in edinburgh that I pass on my way to work everyday anyway, but I flatly will not pay 50p per litre, and I dont think I'm the only one. The greed merchants are shooting themselves in the foot in 2 ways... 1 ) as I state above LPG users are more aware of fuel prices so more likely to avoid overpriced fillups 2) people who may have been considering a conversion will have an eye on the LPG prices for a few months before doing so. If the cost benefits are not percieved to be there, they wont bother with the conversion. More custom lost. Surely the garages should be keeping prices at a sensible level in order to drum up interest in the fuel?

bob · #54 Post by **bob** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:56 pm

I was in the motor trade as an engineer for about 30 years and have seen lots of DIY work done on cars and to be honest although I saw a few that could be dangerous Hand on my heart The risk was low. In general I have found that DIYer repair cars only to the level of their incompetance. In other words they gets so far and realise that they are out of their depth and call in an expert, like me. Most times I would tell them how dangerous that is and take a sharp intake of breath to emphasis the point when in relality it was not that dangerous and because they realise something is wrong and called me, not dangerous at all. Car with no brakes are dangerous only if you drive them. There again how dangerous is to drive a car at 5mph for a 100 yards on the handbrake. I have done that on a public road with out a second thought. Most people know that gas in tanks is dangerous. Of course there is always some total idiot who will make a gas tank out of something unsuitable and have no relief valves and tie the the pipes up with string so that it gets wrapped around the prop shaft. But no amount of regs and laws will stop the idiot. The idiot is going to do what he does. Most are not like that they take notice of what is said, ask advice and read the instructions. It is not rocket science is it? --Fitting a lpg system. One diyer tried to change the top axle bushes on a cortina with a lump hammer he snapped the bracket clean off so he did the same with the other one and then asked me to weld it back together--- what a total idiot.

go_lpg · #55 Post by **go_lpg** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:28 am

Peter, I'm sure your question has a point although I cannot answer it directly because of the way it is qualified. In any event - Family and close friends with multi point conversion and kept up to par by LPGA approved installer (me) = (7). Costing £2000 = (None). only the most complicated 8 cylinder conversions cost that, or more, with us. All of the above have 4 cylinder engines where the conversion cost does not exceed £1600 inc. if fitted with a cylinder tank. Robert, Yes, sadly there are always idiots. My explanation shows that Automotive LPG in UK is put at most risk by just that type of person. Regards Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

martin_hodnett · #56 Post by **martin_hodnett** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:57 am

I am in the process of deciding whether or not to convert, or have converted, the latest old Rover 214 (1994). The cost per litre of Autogas is a consideration and today there is still a 40p differential between gas and petrol (W London, BP). It is most irritating, yes, that LPG seems to go up and stay there whilst petrol fluctuates, but isn't that a result of market forces? Don't get me wrong, I don't like being ripped off either. I intend to harangue the directors responsible within the oil companies! But I also want to change back to LPG for environmental reasons, it is a clean fuel and better for the environment, it is also better for the engine helping to extend its service life. I was considering doing the conversion myself transfering the mixer system from one car to the other. But the useful information picked up from the knowledgeable folks here has correctly pointed me towards a multipoint injection system to match what the replacement car already has. I value the information freely given by the dedicated chaps here thank you all for it. I understand that I could probably physically put the equipment in but not have a clue in setting it up. So the job will be going to an approved installer. Look, A DIYer who knows his limits! Thanks Mike, Steve and everyone, have a super Christmas and new year, Martin

go_lpg · #57 Post by **go_lpg** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:05 am

John, LPGA certificates are NOT the same at MOT certificates. The former is valid indefinately and most often issued by a person doing the work on the vehicle. The latter is valid for a maximium of 13 months and most often not issued by a person doing any work on the vehicle. As shown in posts above, it is possible for vehicles with faults to be driven on our roads for potentially 13 months minus one day as the MOT certificate only guarantees condition on the day of test. If it is to be used on the roads after that time has passed it has to be tested again, probably by a different tester. This will hopefully bring any fault to light. A converted vehicle does not have to have a repeat LPGA test and it is possible for problems to: (A) be present right from installation and never be found by another tester (B) to develop during the system's life (C) to be caused by the owner, any subsequent owner or any person doing work on the car. If this were not so, and if the testing of a gas system were similar to an MOT, higher safety standards would be maintained, the Government would be assured that emissions checks on LPG systems are done after conversion and conversions done in an unsafe manner or changed in any siginificant way could not be used again until put right. It is interesting to consider that the maintenance of LPG system emissions through regular testing could actually support our case for keeping the Government's 'tax break' on LPG. Which brings us neatly back onto topic - LPG pricing depends directly on the standard of conversions being fitted now, in the past and in the future. If they are not up to par, if they are not less polluting than petrol ( used in the same car) the price could go to parity with petrol.

go_lpg · #58 Post by **go_lpg** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:06 am

This is what I do not want to see for you nor I. Maybe the way forward (the way to keep what we have got) is to change things. Regards Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

go_lpg · #59 Post by **go_lpg** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:13 am

And thank you Martin. Just the attitude that will win the day. Have a Nice Xmas NY (to all). Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

momorris · #60 Post by **momorris** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:21 am

Steve that is the point i was trying to make. At this present moment in time a certificate for gas is issued and then no more safety checks are carried out. The owner can mess with the system and always fall back on the certificate. Even years after the issue. I agree that some form of annual testing should be carried out. This would ensure all installs meet cop11. Now and in the future. It would hopefully remove the dodgy approved installers and would allow diyers to have confidence in their install. The problem i can see with this though is as i said previous about some installers not liking other systems than there own. I think the diyer should always be able to carry out a conversion but i also think it shouldnt be used untill a certificate has been gained. Annual safety checks to me would be the way forward. A major drawback to this point is inspectors with no self interest. As opposed to those now who can make money from failing a system. It would be interesting to take a cop11 approved vehicle around the country, declare it as a diyer and see how many fail or pass it.